Sacred Ink: Tattoo's within Torah & Writing Messages of the Savior/Shema on Skin

[Gxg (G²)]

G-d says “Do not put tattoo marks on yourself.” And that’s not good enough.

God did not say that-as what He said in CONTEXT was that tattoos/marks were not to be placed upon oneself for the DEAD. Again, as already mentioned, the brand letters/marks were considered wrong when they were done for the DEAD.

Leviticus 19:28
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:27-29 Leviticus 19


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The other scripture going alongside Leviticus 19:28 would be one found in Deuteronomy, which echoed similar thoughts:

Deuteronomy 14:1
[ Clean and Unclean Food ] You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.



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In Biblical times, tattoos were used to show allegiance to particular idols. And the specific Torah commandment is against self-injury during mourning, which were also idolatrous practices. Leviticus 19:28 includes purposeful self-mutilation, cutting, scarification, burning, etc. Note that the psychological self-mutilation issue is very different from these kinds of actions being done for the sake of beauty or idolatry. Tattos and markings were mentioned in unison when it came to the practice of doing so for the dead, in light of Caananite culture. Some excellent reads on the issue that were mentioned earlier can be found if one chooses to go online/look up the books entitled Israel’s Beneficent Dead: Ancestor Cult and Necromancy in Ancient Israelite Religion and Tradition andJudahite Burial Practices and Beliefs About the Dead (Jsots Series No 123).

There was a HISTORICAL context when it came to markings/tattoos... The focus was...and has ALWAYS been markings/tattoos that are done for the purposes of idolatry/calling up the spirts of the departed, as that's the historical backing--and trying to claim otherwise makes the Lord out to be a liar when He already noted markings to be condoned by Him on multiple points:

• Revelations 19:15 with Christ having language written on Him...
• Revelations 3 where the Lord said He'd mark His people/write His name on them
• Isaiah 44:5 with HaShem saying He'd tattoo/mark His own people
• Ezekiel 9:4-7 with Him commanding the prophet to mark those who grieved over abominations
• Song of Songs, where the lover makes clear their companion has been placed as seal upon their heart and a seal upon their arm.
• Cain in Genesis 4, who was marked by the Lord..

You may feel otherwise......but if the Torah is apparently "good enough" for you, IMHO, then its not fully Torah that you're dealing with since its not something considered good enough by you on several points when it comes to the subject of markings.

To many, G-d is just a cool guy with a tat on his arm and gives a thumbs up. It is when you makeTo m the fatal error of thinking that G-d is just a cool guy, that you have fallen into the trap of idolatry

For those who simply see Him as such, that is their buisness. It has nothing to do with whether or not the Lord either has tattoos/markings Upon Himself...nor does it address where He ALREADY said He had such upon HIMSELF:

Revelation 19:15
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The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. '

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Those assuming the Lord is just a "cool" guy with tats is nowhere near sufficient in addressing where He already had langauge/markings upon Himself.......

. For when G-d is consider to be like man, the standard of righteousness / Holiness is also determined by you.

When going against where the scriptures say that God does something simply because those in the world do the same in the wrong kind of way, sorry-but you do the same thing you warn against since you are essentially making the Lord out to be in the likeness of YOURSELF when assuming that all forms of markings/tattoos are wrong simply because you either dislike them....or you choose to do a logical fallacy in assuming they're all bad because of how the world does it.

As said before, if going with the sentiments you use, there are glaring inconsistencies with the Torah when the Lord already utilized/practiced the things that man was doing wrongly. Be it with the usage of incense or temples which all other pagan nations did long before the Law of Moses was made....or with the usage of rules given for slavery/warfare and other things that the nations did wrongly, the Lord already did things man did and showed how it was to be done. It was never in the sense of an action being WRONG simply because man did so. Otherwise, one could never have God become a Messiah who did things men did---living life, breathing, eating and many other things.

Drunk drivers kill people rather than cars since its how they use the vehicles that made things dangerous...and to condemn the act of driving itself/transportation is foolish if becoming focused on those living worldy. Just because some drivers (or many) drive recklessly doesn't mean that all drivers in cars are doing the same...nor does it mean that the purpose of driving is now to be seen as being about recklessness simply because many chose to do so. In another time/culture and with differing people, driving can have an entirely differing purpose--one about respect for others, provision and helping. Those drunk drivers may corrupt the purpose of something...but the action itself is no wrong---and this goes for a host of other issues, be it with eating (which can turn into gluttony), drinking wine (which can become drunkeness) or many other things.

Its the same with markings/tattoos

I am sure this will send you into a long rant with lots of photos.

Titus 3: 9 -10

Interesting that you discuss "long rants" since that is essentially what you've already done on differing occassions when it came to you unloading your thoughts on Tattoos/markings--one of which occurred here in ..#23.

Of course, it is always interesting when something done if one wishes it is seen as "necessary"/positive---and yet one tries to make it into a supposed negative when it is done by another...with a viewpoint that is disagreed upon. But that happens when Ad-Hominem/logical fallacies occur. Sincerly, IMHO, you've already shown a lack of willingness to address the Torah fully. Thus, in line with Titus 3:9-10 and Proverbs 9:7-10, it is best that perhaps you need to be left alone. This is especially clear when one seems to show more willingness to focus upon posters/comment on photos rather than deal with scripture---regardless of length.

However, generally resorting to character attackts/ad-homimen is what one may choose to resort to when they really cannot address an argument.. Wish it didn't happen, but such is life.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm just curious about all these "other Messianics" that are mentioned. Who are all these people that seem to disregard the Torah every time we have these discussions. Are they Jews or Gentiles?

If you truly read what others disagreeing with you said, then you would not ask such a question....for there have been MANY Messianics over the years posting here (As well as organizations referenced here) who brought up views. In example:

#2 #3 #6 #6 , #10 #14 #22..#58 #59 , #39 and #19


Most of those referenced shared thoughts in regards to disagreeing with things said by some of the same posters currently here speaking against tattoos (yourself included, concerning previous conversations)...and its always interesting to see people act as if there have never been other Messianics on the boards who DISAGREE with them when it comes to many of the views held by others currently.

For its not the case that the specific group of posters currently here were ever what represented the history of Messianic Jewish thought

As said before, you may disagree with other Messianics who don't share your viewpoint---but that in no way means that they're against "Torah"---and unless one is willing to claim that each/every instance of a Messianic disagreeing means that they're either "Gentile" or "Not Jewish" enough, one must learn to square with that. THere are other Messianics who think tattoos and markings are beautiful..as well as other things included such as piercings and henna (another form of marking)/other forms of cosmetic design..and I'm thankful for the work that they do.

These are some traditional henna- you can find more info online!

 

[yedida]

If you truly read what others disagreeing with you said, then you would not ask such a question....for there have been MANY Messianics over the years posting here (As well as organizations referenced here) who brought up views. In example:

#2 #3 #6 #6 , #10 #14 #22..#58 #59 , #39 and #19


Most of those referenced shared thoughts in regards to disagreeing with things said by some of the same posters currently here speaking against tattoos (yourself included, concerning previous conversations)...and its always interesting to see people act as if there have never been other Messianics on the boards who DISAGREE with them when it comes to many of the views held by others currently.

For its not the case that the specific group of posters currently here were ever what represented the history of Messianic Jewish thought

As said before, you may disagree with other Messianics who don't share your viewpoint---but that in no way means that they're against "Torah"---and unless one is willing to claim that each/every instance of a Messianic disagreeing means that they're either "Gentile" or "Not Jewish" enough, one must learn to square with that. There are other Messianics who think tattoos and markings are beautiful..as well as other things included such as piercings and henna (another form of marking)/other forms of cosmetic design..and I'm thankful for the work that they do.

I wondered too, about these many Messianics you talk about. So I took a look at a few of the postings you listed: #2 had 1 sentence and that's really stretching it,, #3 questionable, #6 & 10 have tats, shall we shoot off the fireworks? #14 just a repeat poster already counted . I took note of whose post you didn't direct us to, then I noticed how very ancient the thread is and who the original poster is. Just what is your agenda in doing that?

 

[yedida]

Perhaps Christianity could divorce itself from the "Old Testament" altogether instead of twisting itself into a pretzel trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? From what I've discovered looking at other treads on CF, most Christians there are comfortable with that and feel that the clean break has already been made with the onset of the Paul's teachings.

You're absolutely right, most Christians already have their divorce papers proudly in hand.
Most Messianics today, whether Jew or Gentile, have returned to the best of our ability to a Torah lifestyle

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I wondered too, about these many Messianics you talk about

Concerning the issue, as noted before, its not just Messianics who explicitly support tattooing...but those who also understand the concept of grace, which are many from back in the day. Shimshon being one of them whom I'm good friends with, but there are multiple others.

There's also those organizations/Messianic fellowships referenced---one of them being a fellowship in Australia I've mentioned before known as "Celebrate Messiah" (as seen here in #159 ). The Rabbi of that fellowship is known as Lawrence Hirsh---and his brother Alan Hirsh, whom I've referenced before, both have a heart for reaching for people on the margins/those outcasted---be it the gays, the lesbians or the tattooed and many others. For where Alan discussed the issue of tattoos when it comes to having a Missionary HEART, one can go read his book "Untamed".. The excerpt can be seen here in Untamed: Reactivating a Missional Form of Discipleship - Google Books Result

. So I took a look at a few of the postings you listed: #2 had 1 sentence and that's really stretching it

But on the postings, whether one says "one sentence" or not has no bearing on the issue of what was said when it comes to not really being concerned with it.

#3 questionable,

Nothing "questionable" when one makes clear that its by GRACE that believers are saved anyhow and that having tattoo's is something that others are NOT to judge another on if they choose to do so, based on their own understanding.

#6 & 10 have tats, shall we shoot off the fireworks?

No need for fireworks, though there is a need for honesty when it comes to not just saying ANYTHING against another simply because they disagree strongly, either claiming that only one person is supposedly for Tattoo's/claiming no Messianics are for them or being willing to admit to how often those who disagree with another's point are IGNORED----with it later occurring that people bring up the same points from before/accuse those bring up things that they're either just not being "Messianic" or are alone in their view.

#14 just a repeat poster already counted .

Yeah, though no one said all the posts given were differing posters consistently. Some were repeats seeing how they often shared their viewpoints multiple times, just as some of you here have done for the longest on multiple issues..

But as it stands, a poster who shared twice doesn't address where there were again multiple others who also spoke.

I took note of whose post you didn't direct us to,

Good---though the point was very specific when it came to being questioned about other Messianics who SUPPORTED Tattooing/markings rather than those who didn't. Obviously, that means focus is upon them and direction to them rather than all others.

then I noticed how very ancient the thread is and who the original poster is. Just what is your agenda in doing that?

No agenda, y, when answering a question that was brought up...and settling a false claim stating that issues discussed in this thread are either not REFLECTIVE of what other Messianics/Messianic movements believe...or that they're the first time to be mentioned. What is being made apparent is that people don't really keep up with discussions or really remember what others say whom they disagree with.....and generally, there's ALOT of strecthing when it comes to trying to say whatever against posters bringing up a point that they just don't like.

Sincerly, what difference does it make about how old a thread is? To try focusing upon that would be not much of a point since all posters here (at one point or another) have brought up things from older threads that they felt was noteworthy.

As it stands, not all the threads referenced here were even old to begin with. One was a conversation from 3yrs ago when there were MORE Messianics of a large variety here than what is the case currently--and another was from earlier THIS year. The point in all of that was that there are other Messianics who've always DISAGREED with some of the more active posters here in this current line-up------and trying to act as if only those actively posting are truly "Messianic" is ludicrous. People simply don't choose to remember history and keep up, IMHO....

If you wish to claim anyone has a supposed "agenda", as said before, the main issue in this thread is ADDRESSING scripture on the subject of marking. It is on discussing how those within Judaism feel about the concept of Tattoo's/markings, examining what the Torah says fully on markings/differing kinds of markings in flesh....and examining the ways differing Messianics feel on it. If people disagree with markings/tattoos, that is not a problem---but it was requested that people give an account for where the Torah may not line up with the concept of all markings/tattoos not being bad. There's no room disagreeing and then trying to say of others that they don't follow "Torah" when scripture is already avoided BY THEMSELVES. On the texts most (yourself included) won't even touch:

• Revelations 19:15 with Christ having language written on Him...
• Revelations 3 where the Lord said He'd mark His people/write His name on them
• Isaiah 44:5 with HaShem saying He'd tattoo/mark His own people
• Ezekiel 9:4-7 with Him commanding the prophet to mark those who grieved over abominations
• Song of Songs, where the lover makes clear their companion has been placed as seal upon their heart and a seal upon their arm.
• Cain in Genesis 4, who was marked by the Lord..

As said before, it seems that most either CANNOT or WILL NOT do so plainly when it comes up. This is also said of yourself, as you've been offered scripture multiple times...and yet, the best that occurs is trying to argue AROUND what the texts of Torah say on the issue and then focusing on posters, either in bringing up posting style or trying to bring up suspicion on why they're discussing an issue. Sincerly, if you say that you don't like the thread/get bothered by posts---yet you keep on coming back even when NO ONE has asked you to be here----- I must wonder why is it that you are here currently.

If you wish to discuss the Torah, Praise HaShem. I'm more than open for that---and there have been a couple of noteworthy scriptures that we can go through rather than avoiding. However, if discussing the Torah/scripture is not what is really desired, then there's no real purpose for one choosing to be in this thread.....

That''s why they are called Paulians. He has a theology all his own, has nothing to do with what went before him.

Interesting to see the same label "Paulians" came up elsewhere by yourself, as Contra noted in #316 when it came to the usage of pejoratives against all Christians (As if that's Biblical) ---though I know he, as well as others, have noted the issue before on how there can often be confusion on what Paul and Christianity were truly about (as seen here in #215, #8 #10 #55/ # 78 #97, #171 #177 ).

Honestly, I must wonder whether or not you've shared the same sentiments, as a Messianic Gentile, with the people whom you fellowship with. Be it with saying the pejorative "Paulians" when it comes to Christians or continually bashing all things related to Paul/Christianity and many other things you've said, I know the fellowship you go to near my area would NOT be in support of that...nor would they support the things said by yourself/the ways that others are treated when it comes to the ad-homimen commentary/avoidance of Torah. You once told me that the Bible Study/fellowship you attended was Beth Tefillah with Rabbi Orlando Garcia in Cartersville, GA....and that's one that was started by my fellowship of Congregation Miskan David with Rabbi Aaron Evans. My congregation at Miskand David is Rabbi Orlando's sponsoring fellowship, with him being ordained by us and his fellowship being our sister congregation. And they've both spoken out MUCH on those who continually try to blast Paul/continually say that he either cannot be trusted in his epistles...or who try to continually blast all things within Christianity and claim that only the OT Torah Law is what should be considered for the NT believer.

Thus, its odd to see many of the comments by yourself when it comes to the pejoratives against Christians.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

You're absolutely right, most Christians already have their divorce papers proudly in hand.

Most Messianics today, whether Jew or Gentile, have returned to the best of our ability to a Torah lifestyle

There's no objective evidence in speaking about "most Christians"---be it those who are Hebrew Christian or those who are not-----as no one has discussed with every single Christian group in existence and there are many (in both mission statement/audio teachings) discussing how one cannot DIVORCE the OT from the NT. One can go to "Bible.org" for starters....., as they've spoken often on the subject..and there are many others besides that. The Messianic Jewish apoligist/scholar, known as Dr. Michael Brown, is also another to consider when it comes to discussions about Messianic Judaism and Christianity and outreach amongst Jews when it comes to the Law. To be clear....that does not, of course, mean that there are not many Christians who try to divorce themselves from law---but it would not be logical to try increasing what's done amongst a significant portion and ascribing that to all within a camp. That'd be akin to saying that since Nazi's were German, then all Germans EVERYWHERE and at all cultural or historical points were Nazi as well.

In regards to the Messianic movement, many often fail to remember how much of Mosaic it really is when studying the differing views. In example, many times, others assume that anything of grace being superior to Mosaic code (when that comes up) is akin to one saying that they're for Antinomian thought--and yet because one side has already deemed a phrase or word to only mean one thing, people can speak past each other. The Messianc Jews over at a ministry known as "The Rosh Pina Project" spoke in-depth on this a number of times when it came to discussing the Torah...as seen when they were discussing Antinomian Theology Within The TOM-J Movement and A Messianic Jewish Levite on the New ... - The Rosh Pina Project



There are just as many Christians as there are Messianics who live out a Torah lifestyle---especially in light of what's said in the NT about what it means to walk according to Torah....and there are numerous Messianics noting that Christians are able to walk according to Torah just as they are. And when it comes to being "TORAH Observant", it can be taken overboard. As Brother Contra noted best elsewhere:

All of this stuff we hear about being "observant" is a relative term. For example, if a Gentile thinks that wearing tzitzis is binding on him (or even her- God forbid!), how could he know what length they are, or what they are to look like, or anything unless he consults Rabbinic oral tradition? Likewise, he might claim to keep Shabbos, but how would he know how to? Furthermore, now we hear of Gentiles trying to observe Hannukah (which isn't by their own definition "Torah"), and using the prayers that relate only to the Jews , etc. Lots of kow-towing to the oral traditions of the Rabbis, all the while having an absolute rejection of the oral traditions of the Jewish Apostles. Bizzare.

(...and yeah- I wear a tallit katan, but I tuck it in and never tell Gentiles to try them, so I'm not "against" Torah observance.)

Now we have on this thread mixed up doctrines and parallel Gospels. We have one guy saying that the whole of Torah is binding on all believers. That is to say, in effect, that unless a believer pretends to be Jewish he or she is going to Hell (or Gehenna, or whatever is the trend this week).

The answer we always get when we point this out is always "oh, we can't keep that bit" or "oh, that bit is excluded", thereby reducing the truth and gravity of sin to a relative truth, rather than an absolute truth. eg- "what is sin for me is not sin for you"- a misquoted Biblical reference. Sin is sin. Either something is wrong or something isn't. God punishes sin. So, either God will punish Gentiles for not doing something in Torah- say, circumcision, or not. If He doesn't, then obviously having not a bris isn't a sin for a Gentile.

The fact is this: the Jews had (and have) it right. Jew and Gentile are not bound to the same mitzvot. The Church maintained that distinction (from Acts 15 until now), and further understood as taught by the Apostles that the saving Covenant has always been Faith since even before Moses, not holidays, tzitzis, killing animals, tithing, circumcision, kippot, tallitot, praying in Hebrew (when not your native tongue), attending a synagogue (a "Greekism"! ) or whatever else there is that God gave to the Jews. The Jews will teach you that those things don't "save" them either. This is the point- by making them "compulsary" people are making the non-observance of them sin. By making them binding on Gentiles they are advocating an observance of the Law that even the Rabbis wouldn't bind on Gentiles.

This new doctrine (which is merely the revival of an old doctrine spoken against in Galatians and Colossians) really misses the mark and is neither Jewish or Christian, nor Apostolic, thus not even true. True Judaic, Hebraic doctrine knows the distinctions between genders, cultures, backgrounds and all the things you already believe should be in place. Furthermore, it knows how to carry them out.

One of the worst things about any false doctrine is that the plain words of scripture do not suffice to make it fly- they always have to be re-interpreted to make it stick. The JWs, Mormons and other groups use this tactic. What bothers me about this doctrine is that it does the same. When we read Galatians speaking about the annulling of grace by keeping the Law, the new teachers try to say "oh, it doesn't mean this, it means that". Switch-a-roony. Suddenly the admonition of Paul is read to say that we must keep the Law, because we are saved by faith (or whatever way they get around it), the exact opposite of the plain words. An example outside of this conversation : the Calvinists do this with the word "world" in John 3:17, where "world" becomes "elect". Think about that.
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[visionary]

Why do people think God is impressed with the marring of natural?

 

[jcpro]

You're absolutely right, most Christians already have their divorce papers proudly in hand.
Most Messianics today, whether Jew or Gentile, have returned to the best of our ability to a Torah lifestyle

Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. The "divorced" Christianity seems to go the great lenghts to try to prove that the Mosaic Law is the thing of the past, yet can't help using it in every other sentence. How can they not when the fathers of the Christianity could not find courage to make a clean break?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Why do people think God is impressed with the marring of natural?

This is including circumcision, piercings and make-up (i.e. lip-stick, hair coloring/dying, dental work for nice looking teeth, cosmetic surgery, etc) as well...correct?

 

[yedida]

Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. The "divorced" Christianity seems to go the great lenghts to try to prove that the Mosaic Law is the thing of the past, yet can't help using it in every other sentence. How can they not when the fathers of the Christianity could not find courage to make a clean break?

You're right there. In the beginning, I don't believe that they wanted to make a clean break (i.e. from 300ce till sometime in the 19th century). I'm not positive, but am pretty sure that the dispensational theology came around in the mid to late 1800s, and the "grace only" theology later in the 1900s. Once the "dispensation of grace" set in firmly, who needs a standard of right living, just believe and grace will take care of it all. I came out of this kind of thinking, I'm not just stating something I've heard.

 

[jcpro]

You're right there. In the beginning, I don't believe that they wanted to make a clean break (i.e. from 300ce till sometine in the 19th century). I'm not positive, but am pretty sure that the dispensational theology came around in the mid to late 1800s, and the "grace only" theology later in the 1900s. Once the "dispensation of grace" set in firmly, who needs a standard of right living, just believe and grace will take care of it all. I came out of this kind of thinking, I'm not just stating something I've heard.

That's what I don't understand. What is this "grace"? When I miss the mark, I have to repent. Does "grace" mean Christians don't have to repent? I keep asking this question and I never get a straight answer.

 

[visionary]

This is including circumcision, piercings and make-up (i.e. lip-stick, hair coloring/dying, dental work for nice looking teeth, cosmetic surgery, etc) as well...correct?

How many people think that tatoo is a body improvement?

 

[yedida]

That's what I don't understand. What is this "grace"? When I miss the mark, I have to repent. Does "grace" mean Christians don't have to repent? I keep asking this question and I never get a straight answer.

Yes, Christians are supposed to repent, stop, and determine to never do the deed again, and I believe that they all probably have that intention. But this "grace" theology pretty much leaves open the possibility of doing what one knows is wrong, knowing they can repent and all will be okay. And many use this over and over again, for the self-same offense. (I know many Christians who actually teach this.)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, Christians are supposed to repent, stop, and determine to never do the deed again, and I believe that they all probably have that intention. But this "grace" theology pretty much leaves open the possibility of doing what one knows is wrong, knowing they can repent and all will be okay. And many use this over and over again, for the self-same offense. (I know many Christians who actually teach this.)

It'd be beneficial to see exactly what Christians have often said when it comes to the claim that they advocate a "grace" theology---for there's a difference between the "grace" theology that makes life into a liscence to sin and one that calls believers unto Holiness. Not all things under the label of "grace" are the equivalent of "anything goes" (counter to what Jude 1:1-6 discusses). Christians have LONG been discussing that distinction for ages---as it has never been the case that the concept of grace was EVER seen by all advocating it that one could do whatever they wanted just because they know they'd get away with it.

For some Christian sources that speak directly on the subject of why "cheap grace" is a negative:

• Great Gospel Deception: Deception is an Election - Shepherd Serve
• Great Gospel Deception: Unrighteous Shall Not Inherit
• Great Gospel Deception: The Immoral "Christian"
• Great Gospel Deception: The Greedy "Christian"
  Great Gospel Deception: The Uncommitted "Christian"
• Great Gospel Deception: The Antinomian "Christian"
• Great Gospel Deception: Sanctification: Perfecting Holiness
• Great Gospel Deception: Striving Against Sin

Outside of that, as said before, there are other Messianics who've ntoed how easy it can be to assume all discussion of "grace" theology equates to doing whatever one wants....counter to Hebrews 12:14-17 when it comes to seeking Holiness/pursuing peace with all men. Antinomian thought is not what grace was ever meant to be about.....and yet many will read that into any/every discussion on grace. The Messianc Jews over at a ministry known as "The Rosh Pina Project" spoke in-depth on this a number of times when it came to discussing the Torah...as seen when they were discussing Antinomian Theology Within The TOM-J Movement and A Messianic Jewish Levite on the New ... - The Rosh Pina Project

 

[jcpro]

Yes, Christians are supposed to repent, stop, and determine to never do the deed again, and I believe that they all probably have that intention. But this "grace" theology pretty much leaves open the possibility of doing what one knows is wrong, knowing they can repent and all will be okay. And many use this over and over again, for the self-same offense. (I know many Christians who actually teach this.)

Thank you. That makes sense. Oh yeah, if one knows that he/she will do particular evil again, that invalidates the act of repentance.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Why do people think God is impressed with the marring of natural?

What would you qualify as "marring" when it comes to cosmetic/beauty? WOuld it be those things that are pernament/cannot be erased---or would it also include those things which are not pernament and yet we all accept (i.e. make up, piercings, surgery, etc)?

How many people think that tatoo is a body improvement?

Alot.

For a significant bit, to have a marking/tattoo---be it with the kind that isn't pernament (such as is the case with Henna) or with permanent markings----its a sign of beauty. With the issue of Henna, many have noted how it has long been apart of Jewish culture when it comes to beauty and design...especially if studying the Jews who live in India. For some resources on such:

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• India - Henna by Sienna
  
  
  
• The Henna Page - Kurdish Jewish Henna Traditions
• The Jews of India: a story of three communities - Page 148
  
  
  
• The Henna Page - Henna Traditions of Jewish Brides in Kurdistan

The Joy of Henna​

Already interesting to consider the many ways in which many are simply unaware/ignorant of what life is like for those who are Indian Jewish---and some of it was discussed more in-depth elsewhere in #12 and the thread entitled "Cochin & Hindu Hebrews: Are most Messianic Jews familar with Indian Jewish Believers?" ( ) . To see how many apart of things within Indian culture were often mistreated by other Jews in Judaism because of their practices is amazing enough.....but that's another issue .


As it concerns markings, for others, its no different than the many ways people already do alterations of their body in ways ALL of us have accepted since our youth....be it with going to the dentist to get teeth fixed/cleaned or getting piercings (as often occurred in the Bible) and even the permanent mark of circumcision (which was practiced by nations outside of Israel and done LONG before God told Abraham to do so)

 

[anisavta]

Ahhh the grace card. Kept up the sleeve of everyone who just can't accept that HaShem set His commands in place for our good and figure that they are now free to do things their own way. Wonder how many cops have heard that excuse - "but officer, everybody else was going over the speed limit..." "but officer, it's okay for meeee to go faster because my daddy is a judge..."
Some of our folk here can sing the song in 10 part harmony with full 8x10 glossy pictures and find all kinds of ways to make it work, but when HaShem says keep my commands for your own good - I think He knows something we evidently don't.
Can I get a witness??

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Ahhh the grace card. Kept up the sleeve of everyone who just can't accept that HaShem set His commands in place for our good and figure that they are now free to do things their own way. Wonder how many cops have heard that excuse - "but officer, everybody else was going over the speed limit..." "but officer, it's okay for meeee to go faster because my daddy is a judge..."

Some of our folk here can sing the song in 10 part harmony with full 8x10 glossy pictures and find all kinds of ways to make it work, but when HaShem says keep my commands for your own good - I think He knows something we evidently don't.
c

As no one here said anything against the commands of HaShem being for our good--nor did anyone say that all are free to do things their own way---its interesting to see the quickness to jump to Hyberbole/exaggeration. What was said, in context, was that the application of the Laws as they were in the OT have differing implications in the NT when in a differing covenant..even though we are to still learn from them/understand what they meant...and why the Lord said them. This has been discussed in-depth earlier, as seen here in #13 and #80 when it came to clarifying what it means for one to learn from the Torah and to see it having differing applications in differing times rather than being something that's of no importance......and outside of that, it was shared elsewhere on a host of occassions, as seen in #50 #55 and here by myself/others.

No one has remotely said that we're not to still learn from Torah...as murder is STILL murder and adultery is STILL adultery. Paul made that explicitly clear when it came to noting the use of Torah in illustrating righteousness ( Galatians 3:20-22 , Romans 7:11-13 /Romans 7/ Romans 13:9, 1 Timothy 1:7-9 , Hebrews 10:1-3 / Hebrews 10 )...and Jesus quoted from it frequently as did Paul/the other apostles (i.e. Peter, James, John, etc) on a host of occassions. There are, of course, others who go on the deep end in saying nothing of Paul can be trusted whenever it comes to their thoughts on grace----and in that, they actually DISTANCE themselves from what most of the Modern Messianic Jewish movement has always been about in both their "Statements of Faith"/teachings. But that's another issue altogether.

Outside of that, if grace is something that one chooses to believe that HaShem doesn't advocate, one doesn't really believe in how HaShem has already chosen to reveal Himself to others---and in all frankness, doing such is advocating one's own rightheousness rather than the righteousness of the Messiah in how He described Himself.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:13-15​

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:16-18 / John 1​

Sadden that you cannot seem to come to grips with that even when claiming to serve the Messiah who made clear He was about that---but as grace was something Jesus came to bring, I'll go with Him rather than anyone who feels they're too "good" for it or think its too "easy"...as if he didn't suffer enough on the Cross to show that no one could get in on their own merit/by Law alone.

Dr.Michael Brown often has discussed this when it comes to evangelism amongst Jewish people/discussing what it means to be Messianic...and how much the grace of the Lord transforms us. One can go here for more---as well as here and here and here when it comes to discussing who Jesus the Messiah was/

Additionally, one of the most respected scholars within the Messianic Jewish movement---Dan Juster---also spoke PLAINLY on the subject of grace/understanding its relevance for today...as seen in the following:

• Israel, the Church, and the Last Days - Google Books Result
• Tikkun America - Book of Mitzvot: Introduction by Daniel Juster
  

For another one that can be considered when it comes to the subject of grace, one can consider investigating Beth Messiah Congregation, led by Ryan Lambert. Dr. Michael Brown, who is truly one of the best Messianic Jewish scholars out there (and one of my favorites) recently came to their church to speak on the theme of “How to Stay Healthy in the Messianic Movement,”. For more, one can go here




Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum of "Ariel Ministries" is another excellent source of information as it concerns discussing the issue of the Law and Grace....as seen in his article entitled THE GRACE OF GOD


Additionally, one can consider the scholars over at the Messianic Jewish ministry known as "Rosh Pina Project" (which was mentioned earlier)---in light of how much battle they do in highlighting/documenting the many ways Messianics are mistreated in Israel and need to be advocated. To see where they discussed the concept of Grace, one can go/investigate their article entitled The Rosh Pina Project ( an alternative look at Messianic Jews ): The Law of Messiah . Another you may be interested in is a kat called Marshall Beeber , one of the prominent leaders within the Messianic Jewish movement from the early days....and one who used to post on the forums back in the day (as seen in his thread entitled Submitting Torah Observance To New Covenant Principles ). He can found if going online/looking up the article entitled "Dismantling Legalism In the Messianic Jewish Movement Today " (). He's a wonderful Messianic Jew (Hebrew Christian) who's been in many aspects/camps of the Messianic Jewish movement.....

Most of time, as other Messianics have noted, rarely will what's shared here really be in line with what is said by most Messianic Jewish alliances/organizations---and those who are the scholars within the Messianic Jewish Movement are often ignored. But its not as if anything has NOT been said about grace..

Additionally, if believing that all forms of grace within Christianity equates to freedom to go against God's commands, there needs to be recognition of how its really not fair to acknowledge where stereotyping of a camp can occur....just as its claimed that fairness isn't occurring toward Messianics whenever they feel that others claim they are "legalistic" simply because they enjoy Torah and believe it continues to have relevance for us today.

Some of this I've expressed in greater detail elsewhere, as seen in in #94 /#96 and #96. But as said there, trying to discuss anything related to Christianity or "grace" as being monolithic is never appropriate when in discussion. For there are many versions of "Christianity", just as there are many versions of "Judaisms"---including those that are more in line with the topic of grace, such as with those believing in the Noahidic Covenant/Noahide Laws and never for the mindset that Gentiles were bound to all things the Jewish nation was bound to. The subject of the Noahidic covenant and Laws made for Gentiles was discussed more in-depth elsewhere in #38 and #92...and one excellent book on that subject you may benefit from is known as "Jesus the Pharisee" by Harvey Faulk..and one can find out more if going online/looking up the article by another Messianic entitled Book Review: Jesus The Pharisee by Harvey Falk | Grasping Mashi'ach.


Moving on, though you may disagree, I don't think there should be a quick disconnect from anything "Christian" if one wishes to support Jewish thought in regards to Torah...for there are many cases when things overlap.

And on the issue, the Messianic Jewish ministry of John McKee is stellar...and one of the best ones around when it comes to what I think is a proper response to "Christianity" and its many variations.

As he said best in his article entitled "The "Ephraimite Error": Critical Errors - TNN Online":

"But the “Christianity is pagan!” rhetoric—which can also be found in some parts of Messianic Judaism—tends to go far beyond various questionable traditions and customs that can easily be remedied; it tends to accuse all Christians throughout history of being lawless heathen, who have constantly derided and ignored the instruction of the Law of Moses.

Our ministry has been quite exceptional in that it has steadfastly stood against much of the overstated “Christianity is pagan!” rhetoric. We have urged people to stay away from pseudo-scholarly publications like Come Out of Her, My People by C.J. Koster or Fossilized Customs by Lew White, and most especially sensationalistic personalities like Michael Rood. We have encouraged a more toned-down and tempered usage of terms like “non-Biblical” when the Winter and Spring holidays present themselves, so people do not think that a denial of Christmas or Easter is tantamount to denying Yeshua’s birth and death/burial/resurrection. Most importantly, we are among the few who have made significant efforts to express appreciation for the contributions of our Christian forbearers in past history.

​

Can I get a witness??

If you go against the Witness of TORAH and what it says of the Messiah, it witnesses against you....as are the other scriptures you're still avoiding/failing to deal with.

Concerning those scriptures:

• Revelations 19:15 with Christ having language written on Him...
• Revelations 3 where the Lord said He'd mark His people/write His name on them
• Isaiah 44:5 with HaShem saying He'd tattoo/mark His own people
• Ezekiel 9:4-7 with Him commanding the prophet to mark those who grieved over abominations
• Song of Songs, where the lover makes clear their companion has been placed as seal upon their heart and a seal upon their arm.
• Cain in Genesis 4, who was marked by the Lord..

Hopefully one can square with the scriptures rather than either hiding, complaining or running from them...and hiding behind commentary about "8x10 glossy pictures" or photos, as if focusing upon another poster in their posting style (ad hominem) in any way deals with addressing scripture.

 

[anisavta]

Ok - lets define grace...
In a short paragraph please.

 

[aniello]

That's what I don't understand. What is this "grace"? When I miss the mark, I have to repent. Does "grace" mean Christians don't have to repent? I keep asking this question and I never get a straight answer.

I'm with you on this one, "grace". As practiced by most christians that I've seen, in 76 years, it seems to be a means to reach a position of not having to be accountable to HaShem nor anyone else, for that matter, regarding anything. Somehow I don't think HaShem is quite as stupid as some christians may think. But never mind, this nation, the USA, is headed into the poop-pile of history, probably irretrievably. The institution, not necessarily the real estate.

Getting a coherent definition of grace is nigh unto impossible. Generally one is bombarded by the scripture bomber with little or no personal explanation, which to the recipient of such is like listening to a canned recording. The recipient is oft times convinced that the speaker/writer is giving a rote recitation of some programmed in spiel but lacking in a way that convinces the recipient the speaker has never personally received their own message at their own personal heart level, in other words the speaker is "up in their head" as we used to say in the hippy era.

One, or why not all, of the clergymen that come to this forum should define grace, to alleviate the apparent confusion the term "grace" seems to generate, probably in a new thread entitled "Grace" or appropriate. CyberLizard, Heber, and ContraMundum come to mind. Surely "grace" does not give approval to license. But then again..........................?

Ah, I believe in grace, whatever it may be.

Written on the fly, I'm due back in court now.