Sacred Ink: Tattoo's within Torah & Writing Messages of the Savior/Shema on Skin

Gxg (G²)

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One, or why not all, of the clergymen that come to this forum should define grace, to alleviate the apparent confusion the term "grace" seems to generate, probably in a new thread entitled "Grace" or appropriate. CyberLizard, Heber, and ContraMundum come to mind. Surely "grace" does not give approval to license. But then again..........................?

Ah, I believe in grace, whatever it may be.
.
To have a thread focused upon the discussion of grace would indeed be beneficial, IMHO--as it seems to be something that is either not discussed often...or misunderstood in discussion. I'm thankful for the many Messianics/Messianic ministries that've sought to tackle the issue...but for others here, that may be something that needs to be done more in-depth.

One Messianic, known as Marshall Beber, tried to generate a conversation on the matter before in a thread he made about submitting the Torah to a New Covenant principles/a New Testament perspective...and understanding what the sacrifice/blood of Jesus was about.
 
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visionary

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Ahhh the grace card. Kept up the sleeve of everyone who just can't accept that HaShem set His commands in place for our good and figure that they are now free to do things their own way. Wonder how many cops have heard that excuse - "but officer, everybody else was going over the speed limit..." "but officer, it's okay for meeee to go faster because my daddy is a judge..."
Some of our folk here can sing the song in 10 part harmony with full 8x10 glossy pictures and find all kinds of ways to make it work, but when HaShem says keep my commands for your own good - I think He knows something we evidently don't.
Can I get a witness??
I will testify that what you say is correct:thumbsup:
 
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Gxg (G²)

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I will testify that what you say is correct:thumbsup:

If testifying, IMHO, you'd also need to deal with the MJAA if your testimony is correct, as its not "Messianic" in any way to deny the subject of grace:cool:

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:13-15


John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:16-18 / John 1

As it concerns the thread, for anyone trying to say that the OT Law/Commands of the Lord are being ignored in the name of grace/seeking to be "free to do things their own way", I am still asking where was the OT Law ever avoided in the thread. No one ever said that it was wrong for the Lord to condemn markings/tattos for the dead---as that is what the Torah said. What was stated was that His commands never condemned Tattoos/markings in general since the command was specific to the practice of worshipping spirits....and if done as an act of worship unto the Lord, its an entirely differing thing. To see people assume that advocating tattoos or markings is in any way a sign of "cheap grace" (liscense to sin) is nowhere near what has been said in the thread.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Start a new thread (KISS please) on grace Easy. .
As others made the suggestion, they have the freedom to do so if they wish. This thread's focus is on tattoos and the Law.








You're derailing this one.
If one wishes to talk about "derailing", then there needs to be demonstration shown in dealing with what the Torah says on a certain topic---but thus far, it seems as if there's too much of a desire to avoid what the Torah says on the ORIGINAL Post topic whenever you've been confronted plainly ont he matter. As said before, on the MAIN SCRIPTURES involved in the original post that you continue to try avoiding as if they're not there:
  • Revelations 19:15 with Christ having language written on Him...
  • Revelations 3 where the Lord said He'd mark His people/write His name on them
  • Isaiah 44:5 with HaShem saying He'd tattoo/mark His own people
  • Ezekiel 9:4-7 with Him commanding the prophet to mark those who grieved over abominations
  • Song of Songs/Song of Solomon 8:5-7 where the lover makes clear their companion has been placed as seal upon their heart and a seal upon their arm.
You can try to attempt claiming that another is "derailing"---but in many ways, its simply reading into another what you yourself have ALREADY been doing....as you've continually/brazenly avoided the main OP topic as well as the scriptures given on it. ..and thus, the room you have for discussing derailing isn't much. Until you can be faithful in dealing with the scriptures discussed in the OP, whatever you say in commentary is a derailment..and that has happened enough already;):cool:

Sincerly, I'd prefer to deal with the scriptures noted in OP rather than having to address every sideline comment made by others that goes away from it---be it with avoiding scripture for other conversation off topic... or trying to make fun of/mock anything one doesn't wish to agree with at any costs (as it seems you're trying to do continually, Proverbs 9:7-9/ Proverbs 11:12/Proverbs 15:12 /Proverbs 22:10).



However the subject of grace has been debated ad-nauseum here and over in GT
Interesting to see the response.

For you claim the subject of grace has been debated "ad-nauseum" here....and yet you were one of the individuals who initinally brought up the subject in discussion/continued it. Specifically, you brought it up here in what seemed to be a not-too-subtle attempt at claiming others for the concept of grace were advocating a liscense to sin/go against the Law on any point---as seen in post #83. And later, I clarified DIRECTLY to you how the subject of grace is neither liscense to do any kind of immorality nor is it a Non-Messianic concept, as seen in #84....and prior to that, it was xpounded upon further in regards to how it has never been "Christian" to avoid God's standards and numerous Christians/Christian organizations or churches have gone counter to your assesment, as seen previously in #80


After all of that, you then decided to ask for a definition from myself (as seen here in #85 ) after you were called out on it in trying to make it out as if discussion of grace is a "Christian" dynamic to avoid the Torah. And yet, the only response despite all of that is that there's an seeming attempt to try to claiming "Well, its been talked about often." ??

Sorry, but IMHO it doesn't seem you're really being consistent with the train of thought or logic you've been advocating..though the attempt by yourself at trying to spin the situation/switch at the last minitue is noteworthy:cool: Moreover, despite how many Messianic organizations have supported the concept of GRACE and go counter to your views---indicating that what you advocate isn't really "Messianic" at all----it's interesting that you seem to be willing to avoid it simply for the sake of argument. Ani, at this point, its not even an issue of one "Messianic view" against another....as the fact of the matter is that much of what you have been advocating in opposition to the concept of grace is not what Messianic Scholars/teachers have advocated for ages....and there are plenty of solid ones to investigate for confirmation. As said earlier, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum of "Ariel Ministries" is an excellent source of information as it concerns discussing the issue of the Law and Grace....as seen in his article entitled THE GRACE OF GOD



If you want us here in MJ to become grace based - it ain't gonna happen
Not concerned with whether any of you here become "grace based"---as the reality is that it wouldn't matter since trying to resist it would not change the fact that its a concept supported by Messianic Judaism on a host of levels...and fighting against that is simply another indicator that its not really understood what it means to be Messianic.


It would be amazing to see a proper understanding of grace develop on your part...but if it does not, so be it. Life will keep going on. Moreover, there are far too many in the history of this forum that've already been "grace based" and noted how the TORAH was supported in the New Covenant through that basis....just as Jesus said....and to become focused on a few VEHEMENTLY against anything concerning grace based in the Law is not something that'll really make a difference in the long scheme of things.

grace_torah_web.jpg
 
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yedida

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Ahhh the grace card. Kept up the sleeve of everyone who just can't accept that HaShem set His commands in place for our good and figure that they are now free to do things their own way. Wonder how many cops have heard that excuse - "but officer, everybody else was going over the speed limit..." "but officer, it's okay for meeee to go faster because my daddy is a judge..."
Some of our folk here can sing the song in 10 part harmony with full 8x10 glossy pictures and find all kinds of ways to make it work, but when HaShem says keep my commands for your own good - I think He knows something we evidently don't.
Can I get a witness??

Yes, you can get a witness!!!!

(I was trying to catch up on this thread, haven't been paying it much attention, for reasons known and unknown......la la la la...)
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Thank you for your boorish response.
Drive that train on...
anisavta,

From Merriam-Webster's dictionary:
Definition of BOORISH

: resembling or befitting a boor (as in crude insensitivity)

— boor·ish·lyadverb
— boor·ish·nessnoun


Respectfully...and in all realness...No one has demanded that you participate in this thread...but those participating have been asked to deal with a certain topic presented---and those not concerned with it were asked to simply leave the issue alone/respectfully move on. That is a request you and many others here have made yourself when it comes to topics you are either passionate for or processing---and to adhere to that simple request would be cultural sensitivity. However, when you take more time out to attempt any kind of mocking of another---be it deriding those supporting the concept of grace as if they believe in liscense to sin (as you claimed)..or sarcasm/petty commentary in making fun of pictures placed up (as you did earlier), that is a form of being boorish....and its interesting to see that there's not a recognition of that on your part. Thus again, it seems that you may be reading into others what you yourself have done repeatedly--and whenever called on it, it seems the general response is the EXAGGERATE what is done/attemp to make it out as if its something it isn't.....much like people who deride others and later claim "I was wronged!!!" whenever someone tries to address it.

One can easily say that any commentary of yours where you did NOT deal respectfully with the scriptures presented to you was "boorish"---and if continuning to make commentary that doesn't deal with the Torah, it only reinforces the sentiment/fact further.
Thank you for your boorish response.
Drive that train on...
Sincerly, I'm Sorry that the grace of Christ/asking one to actually square with the Blood of Jesus is "boorish"--but thankfully, it is insightful into how much value is given to what Christ came to bring.


For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:16-18 / John 1

Acts 13:43
When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.​

Acts 20:24
However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace.
Acts 20:23-25

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Romans 5:14-16

1 Corinthians 1:4
[ Thanksgiving ] I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus.​

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
1 Corinthians 15:9-11

2 Corinthians 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
2 Corinthians 13:13-14

Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
Galatians 2:20-21

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise​

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
Ephesians 1:6-8

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. . 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.​
.


Of course, for anyone disagreeing with/despising anything that Paul said when it comes to Torah and the Law, it will not be a surprise to see the only move brought out being "Well, that's Paul." But ignoring scripture/dealing with it are two differing things....:cool:





For some good resources on the subject of Grace-Filled Torah Observance, from a real Messianic perspective, one can either go online/investigate the articles entitled the following:​

Even Dr. Michael Brown has noted the same, in regards to how NO MAN--Jew or otherwise---can be saved by observance of the Law alone.....as to say such goes radically counter to what it meant for Christ to die for us. One can go to the Messianic Ministry he does, as seen in his article entitled Can Jewish People Be Saved Without Believing in ... - Ask Dr. Brown---and for video:​


















There are many other scholars from the Messianic movement that've long discussed the importance of grace (i.e. Dan Juster, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum of "Ariel Ministries" in his article entitled THE GRACE OF GOD, etc) when it comes to the Torah.....but I don't expect it to be dealt with anytime soon since you've made clear you don't care for anything in regards to the grace of Christ.​





If resisting the concept of grace, then you're already out of sync with Messianic Judaism....and in significant need of coming to know the Messiah more if you cannot actually deal with scripture on the issue of grace/truth...except in considering anything disagreeing with your view as a negative. If you're capable of doing other than what's done in middle-school with trying to mock anything you don't like---as if that deals with scripture---that would be appreciated. Nevertheless, unless you can actually give a responsible response to scripture, it'd be best if you would not comment---as it doesn't honor the Lord. And on those scriptures dealing with what the Torah plainly illustrates on Markings/Tattoos:​

  • Revelations 19:15 with Christ having language written on Him...
  • Revelations 3 where the Lord said He'd mark His people/write His name on them
  • Isaiah 44:5 with HaShem saying He'd tattoo/mark His own people
  • Ezekiel 9:4-7 with Him commanding the prophet to mark those who grieved over abominations
  • Song of Solomon 8:5-7 , where the lover makes clear their companion has been placed as seal upon their heart and a seal upon their arm.
I pray that those scriptures can be dealt with---but if not, then as said before, there's no need for anyone commenting on the thread. For its not in line with the OP..
Yes, you can get a witness!!!!
If trying to witness against the concept of the Torah being grace-based in order to function properly---as is being advocated---then the scriptures don't really witness for you.

(I was trying to catch up on this thread, haven't been paying it much attention, for reasons known and unknown......la la la la...)
Always interesting to see how much people say they've not been paying attention even though they can't help but continue posting. Kind of like one saying "I'm not listening to you, La La!!!!" and yet they still talk to the one they pretend as if they're not there.:cool:;)

The grace of the Lord is what makes following the Torah possible....and the Torah was always meant to point to where we needed grace. Both work in harmony with one another---but to deny grace is to deny the Torah's promises....and the scriptures are clear that our forgivness needed to be attainted through Jesus since it could not be found in adhering to the Torah alone ( Acts 5:30-32 , Acts 3:18-20 , Acts 11:17-19, Acts 20:20-22 , Acts 26:17-19 , Ephesians 1:6-8 , Colossians 1:13-15, etc)---and the grace that Messiah offers is truly amazing...
Acts 13:37-39
37 but He whom God raised up saw no corruption. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
 
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visionary

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Easy G (G²);58436985 said:
If testifying, IMHO, you'd also need to deal with the MJAA if your testimony is correct, as its not "Messianic" in any way to deny the subject of grace:cool:

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:13-15


John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 1:16-18 / John 1

As it concerns the thread, for anyone trying to say that the OT Law/Commands of the Lord are being ignored in the name of grace/seeking to be "free to do things their own way", I am still asking where was the OT Law ever avoided in the thread. No one ever said that it was wrong for the Lord to condemn markings/tattos for the dead---as that is what the Torah said. What was stated was that His commands never condemned Tattoos/markings in general since the command was specific to the practice of worshipping spirits....and if done as an act of worship unto the Lord, its an entirely differing thing. To see people assume that advocating tattoos or markings is in any way a sign of "cheap grace" (liscense to sin) is nowhere near what has been said in the thread.
I am not apposed to grace... it has its place.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Gxg (G²)

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I wonder how many people with tatoos later in life wish they never got them.

As many as there are people in life who were circumcised/physically marked and yet wish they never were. There's no magic number, as there are people on all sides of the spectrum. Whereas some are sad about the KIND of tattoo they recieved since they didn't put any thought into it, many are glad even into old age since they knew what they were doing/were at peace with it.
 
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