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Sacred Ink: Tattoo's within Torah & Writing Messages of the Savior/Shema on Skin

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Gxg (G²), Aug 15, 2011.

  1. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    The command is not to make any to the dead---and anyone saying all marks are against Torah doesn't really deal with what the Torah says when it comes to a myriad of ways that markings were given to God's people BY the Lord.

    If we're going to say what a command is, one needs to deal with it fully..and in context. Otherwise, people are no different than those who they say do not truly wish to understand/follow Torah.

    aniello, the OP is simple enough. The discussion is on what the Bible says on the issue of tattoos and markings...and where scripture addresses it in differing points, concerning which ones were valid and which ones were not. Within that is the larger issue of what occurs within the Jewish community when it comes to those who wear Tattoo's and have had others who are either Christians (Hebrew Christian) or Messianic Jewish reach out to them/not feel that it was in any way an issue. As said earlier:
    In going further on the issue, there are Jewish neighborhoods that are very aggressive toward those with Tattoos just as there are Gentile neighborhoods which do the same...and by converse, there are both Jewish and Gentile neighborhoods that never had issue with it nor felt that it was against the Torah to do so. Even for those that may vehemently dislike tattoos themselves/not be for getting one, they were simply for having all of the facts before making a judgement on whether or not a "tattoo" is something that should be endorsed. There are many people who have been very knowledgable in creating ways for having intelligent dialouge on the issue. In example, I'm reminded of a man known as Ami James (born Omi James, April 6, 1972). He is an Israeli-born tattoo artist..and his father, an American, converted to Judaism three years prior to moving to Israel, where he joined the Israeli army and met James' mother. James lived in both Israel and Egypt as a child, and spent much of his childhood without his father who left the family when James was four years old. Suffering from severe ADD, James explains in many of this talks that he was drawn into art and tattooing from a young age as his father had tattoos and was also a painter.

    Also, concerning the series I was telling you about where Jewish tattoo artist (Ami James) shared with others on isues in the Jewish community, , one can go to the following to see the actual series:

    There was plenty of scripture to discuss and give differing viewpoints on..though thus far, a significant portion of that was not even touched..and the best most can do is "I just don't like that"--as if that in any way deals with the full council of God. Again, if people wish to seriously discuss the issue, there's more than enough there to go through....but if they cannot honor/read through the Original post as it is/deal with it, they are free to leave the thread.

    There are plenty of tribes that do cuttings and that is not appropriate in many ways....just as others do around the world when it comes to making markings to other gods/idols.

    Again, anyone can throw out a host of terms such as "rabbit trail" or "

    Nonetheless, the issue is WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE say. Period. Whether or not you agree with what another tribe does or not has no bearing on addressing the Torah--and examining what the Lord said was appropriate for other nations to do and that He never had issue with. For when it comes to the Gospel being spread within differing cultures, whether your own or others, the scriptures are clear that it was never meant to be done in one way. The bottom line is that all of us do things in our own cultural contexts which the Torah allows...and rather than trying to dismiss it without actually dealing with the scriptures say/the examples given of how believers operated in differing contexts (i.e. Joseph, Daniel, Esther, etc), one can go back to the Word. Just because YOU disagree with something or don't care for it doesn't make it not an issue.....as there are plenty within the Messianic community/outside of it that do deal with it.

    Obviously, for the extremely LIMITED amount of exposure most here get on a host of issues (as Brother Contra has noted once before in #33 / #304 ), its plain there's alot of lack in awareness as to what other Messianics actually deal with in the real world/on the Mission field....and its not surprising seeing how many who are in the Jewish community don't really take seriously what many in Messianic circles advocate. For many rarely deal with the real hot-button issues that are going on in Jewish communities.

    Of course...

    Can't really stand others who make what's happening within other cultures as if its a matter of performance. Additionally, I don't really care much for P.T Barnum...though the idea of a Circus was rather brilliant. Some in the church feel that's what the Body of Christ is like in many ways. If interested, one can investigate the ministry of Shane Claiborne---a very powerful man of God who does much work within the world of Social Justice/Humantarian movements and who does much work in Urban communities...working with others from a myriad of groups, be it Jew or Gentile, who are often outcasts....and one can see his own thoughts on the matter if going online/investigating the article entitled Shane Claiborne and Circus Theology | :: TheOoze.TV :: Emerging ...

    t. For more, one can go to the following:

    Last edited: Aug 21, 2011
  2. Criada

    Criada Well-Known Member Supporter

    Christian Seeker
    Mod Hat On
    This thread has undergone a clean up.
    Please discuss the OP rather than throwing accusations at one another.

    Mod Hat Off
  3. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Some of what you noted would be in line with the PRINCIPLE of 1Cor.7 (I think):

    Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. (I Corinthians 7:18)

    If one has tats before they are 'saved', then perhaps its the case that they shouldn't remove them/be concerned...but if you never had tats before 'salvation', then for others it may be something to consider in not attaining them.
  4. Torah

    Torah Senior Veteran

    Looking at the History of Tattoos we see that tattoos were used in the worship of other gods, marking for the dead, keep Evil spirits away, and to identify slaves.
    In the 1700 and 1800 sailors sailing to other lands started get tattoos but is was not something Believers did, and eventually it faded away. It started to make a come back in the 1960s when young people working in the “Job corps” would come back from working in other countries and having been tattooed. It is clear that the practices of tattooing is founded in idolatry, and it is clear that in our modern times our world has set the standard of righteousness for mankind.

    It is when we make the fatal error of thinking that G-d is like man, that we fall into the trap of idolatry. For when G-d is consider to be like man, the standard of righteousness is also determined by mankind.

    When we look at G-ds standard of righteousness / Holiness we see a separation from this world.

    Deuteronomy 7: 25 The images of their gods you are to burn in the fire. Do not covet the silver and gold on them, and do not take it for yourselves, or you will be ensnared by it, for it is detestable to the LORD your God.

    What would be wrong with just taking gold and silver melting it down and making it into something that could be sold or made into something used for good? After all! It’s just Gold & silver.
    Because we are to be a HOLY people, a people separate from the world. Not allowing the world to set our standard of righteousness.

    Deuteronomy 14:2 for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.

    We should not except what the world says is acceptable.

    Idolatry : immoderate attachment or devotion to something
    The word idea-{a formulated thought or opinion) comes from the word idolatry.
  5. anisavta

    anisavta Never Forget!

    Thank you Torah! :thumbsup:
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox

    It is rather interesting that the scriptures about silver and gold are brought up when it comes to utilizing those things already found within the culture....for the Lord said more on the subject that the verse quoted by yourself.

    I'm reminded of the Israelites when it came to using the very things the pagans used/did for differing reasons. eed to avoid detestable things done by heathens, He gave them gardens/vineyards of their own that the previous "pagan" nations had already used for differing reasons...as seen in Deuteronomy 6:10-12 /Joshua 24:12-14 /
    .Deuteronomy 6:10-12
    10 When the LORD your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the LORD, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

    When the custom of building cities was done to oppress others, did that mean that the Israelites were also oppressing others because they built cities? When the custom of making vineyards was done to produce wine for getting drunk, did that mean it was wrong for the Israelites to borrow it from the people--whom God gave over to them---so they could use it for God's Glory? No one would say such

    For another example, one can consider the subject of incense..


    To be clear, with the incense, there is the reality that God did have a special forumla he told His people that he didn't want duplicated...
    Exodus 30:36-38

    Anointing Oil

    22 Then the LORD said to Moses, 23 "Take the following fine spices: 500 shekels [] of liquid myrrh, half as much (that is, 250 shekels) of fragrant cinnamon, 250 shekels of fragrant cane, 24 500 shekels of cassia—all according to the sanctuary shekel—and a hin [] of olive oil. 25 Make these into a sacred anointing oil, a fragrant blend, the work of a perfumer. It will be the sacred anointing oil. 26 Then use it to anoint the Tent of Meeting, the ark of the Testimony, 27 the table and all its articles, the lampstand and its accessories, the altar of incense, 28 the altar of burnt offering and all its utensils, and the basin with its stand. 29 You shall consecrate them so they will be most holy, and whatever touches them will be holy.

    30 "Anoint Aaron and his sons and consecrate them so they may serve me as priests. 31 Say to the Israelites, 'This is to be my sacred anointing oil for the generations to come. 32 Do not pour it on men's bodies and do not make any oil with the same formula. It is sacred, and you are to consider it sacred. 33 Whoever makes perfume like it and whoever puts it on anyone other than a priest must be cut off from his people.' "


    34 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take fragrant spices—gum resin, onycha and galbanum—and pure frankincense, all in equal amounts, 35 and make a fragrant blend of incense, the work of a perfumer. It is to be salted and pure and sacred. 36 Grind some of it to powder and place it in front of the Testimony in the Tent of Meeting, where I will meet with you. It shall be most holy to you. 37 Do not make any incense with this formula for yourselves; consider it holy to the LORD. 38 Whoever makes any like it to enjoy its fragrance must be cut off from his people."
    Apart from that, all of the gold/materials (including supplies for the making of incense) that the Israelites got for making the tabernacle/worship services came directly from the WEALTH of EGYPT---as before they left, God made the Egyptians inclined to give them their stuff/told the Israelities to ask the Egyptians for all they had used for themselves.... and thus Israel plundered them....with it being used to build God's tabernacle later on---as seen in Exodus 25 /Exodus 26:2 Exodus 28 Exodus 30 Exodus 31 Exodus 35:7 Exodus 35:21-23 / Exodus 35:28-30 /Exodus 36:4-6 Exodus 36:9 Exodus 36 /Exodus 37 Exodus 38:23-25 / / Exodus 39 Exodus 40.
    Exodus 3:21-22
    21 "And I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people, so that when you leave you will not go empty-handed. 22 Every woman is to ask her neighbor and any woman living in her house for articles of silver and gold and for clothing, which you will put on your sons and daughters. And so you will plunder the Egyptians."
    Exodus 11/Exodus 11:1-3 /

    The Plague on the Firstborn

    1 Now the LORD had said to Moses, "I will bring one more plague on Pharaoh and on Egypt. After that, he will let you go from here, and when he does, he will drive you out completely. 2 Tell the people that men and women alike are to ask their neighbors for articles of silver and gold." 3 (The LORD made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and Moses himself was highly regarded in Egypt by Pharaoh's officials and by the people.)
    Exodus 12:35-37 /
    The Israelites did as Moses instructed and asked the Egyptians for articles of silver and gold and for clothing. 36 The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.

    Can we not "call a spade a spade" and say the Egyptians had God BORROW from them to use for HIS GLORY? For clearly, God was taking things they used in their services/lives unto their "gods" (i.e. demons) and using it in a unique way with His own people taking the items and using them according to his pleasure.

    Its already established that the instructions for worship/items used were primarily for Israelite culture-----and for anyone to say of others today "You're not worshipping the way God outlined in the LAW!!!!" or "HE ALREADY gave instructions as to how He wanted us to worship/revere Him--but you're just disobeying by adding/taking away from those instuctions!!!!!" , the reality is that NO ONE CAN EVER GO BACK fully to all the ways God designed for the Jews to worship-----as that would require having a NEW Tabernacle, Sacrifices, and everything concerning the Priesthood that Christ came to change in the New Covenant, Hebrews 7-10. And on the issue, when he did give instructions to his people on how to worship him/be distinct, the reality is that He used the things of other nations that were formally dedicated to/offered to other gods. What they corrupted for evil, God Himself took it back and gave it to others for good. The things of this life God has given us that are not the problem...but rather the hands they're used in are.

    Of course, the Egyptians using gold (and incense) were not doing things the way God commanded. And on that, in no way was it the case that using INCENSE was the Egyptians idea---as all are wired to know there is a Supreme Being who is worthy of worship, Romans 1:19-21 / . Everyone knows that they were meant to worship something...and indeed, one will inevitably choose to WORSHIP something in some kind of way. DOesn't mean they're going to worship the Lord. But when a culture does something the wrong way/uses GOD'S materials for their own benefit rather than to Him, the materials are not condemned.(1 Timothy 4:2-4 )

    It's insulting to God, I think, when we condemn the use of things that "pagans" use just because they used it---as its no more different than an work of art sitting in the lounge of a theif who stole it....and the person condemning/catching the thief doing nothing but DESTROYING THE PAINTING. One cannot say they love the artist who made it if they destroy his work/condemn others doing art in the process of catching the thief who profited off of it.

    On the issue of items used for the wrong reasons, we were just discussing the differing kinds of worldviews out there the other day at Youth Group---from Theism to Deism and Pantheism...and with the last one (i.e. Pantheism/worship of the Earth), how often it's the case that people believe in a Supernatural Being but turn it inward toward creation itself...like saying "God is in all things" as is often the case in Eastern Religions---especially ones like Hinduism.

    Just because something was either popular or came from a culture outside of Hebrew culture didn't mean that it was automatically to be condemned....and for a practical example, one can see the life of Solomon. For throughout his reign, Solomon applied his wisdom well becasue he sought God....& the fruits of his wisdom were peace, security, and prosperity for the nation.

    However, despite all of that & the fact the God gave Solomon wisdom, I've always wondered what to make of the fact that Solomon seemed to be a student of Philosophy/General Revelation He has given to all----saved or NOT (such as with the sciences, medicine, and other things....& that many of the things he wrote down in Proverbs which people turn to DAILY for wisdom may not be directly from Believers in GOD/EXPLICITLY Messianic CONCEPTS.

    Regarding the book of Proverbs, which contains many practical expressions of general truth rooted in God, there were many points where He did not author information but simply collected/compiled the information for what it was and didn’t hesitate to place the information out before others because the authors may not’ve been explicitly FOLLOWERS of the Lord.

    Consider, for instance, Proverbs 22:17 through Proverb 24:34, in which he collected/shared 77 proverbs, and godly principles most likely spoken by simple wise men).

    And what of the many wise sayings from others besides himself in other instances?

    Take, for example, the words of Agur, Proverbs 30:1-33, which are a collection of proverbs written by an unknown sage. The orgin of these sayings is not clear, & nothing is known about Agur except that he was a wise teacher who may've come from Lemuel's kingdom....& though there's no mention of him being EXPLICITLY A believer (for even those not saved can have GENERAL REVELATIOn about GOD), it was enough that he was a simple student of wisdom/knowledge at the time of SOLOMON (I Kings 4:30-31.. Much of the wisdom in Proverbs 22:17 to 24:34 bears close affinities to Egyptian wisdom documented from other sources.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox

    The physical marking of others as slaves/indentured servants is very intriguing to consider, in light of how the Hebrews did so as well when it came to those who wanted to show that they were willing to live with them for life...and in that time, the marking of another as a type of slave was beautiful.

    There's actually debate on the issue of whether believers didn't do so as well. That there was a great amount of sailors going to other lands doesn't address historically where believers did the same...for there are a myriad of ways that markings/tattoos come in.

    If you have reference/backing for this to show where you're coming from, that would be cool..
    That, however, still does not address the multiple scriptures where the practices of tattooing and markings were already done by believers in the OT and the NT. One cannot jump to assuming that all forms were wrong because others were used in idolatrous formats.
    I agree...and the way the Lord is seen is always based upon the Word. With that said, it is odd whenever people try to claim that tattoos are made for idolatry and yet the Lord Himself is described as not only marking His people---but also having marks on Himself as well.

    The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast

    11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

    16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

    Outside of that, there's also the issue of what Revelation 3:12 says when it comes to scripture on Jesus writing physical language upon his people:

    12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

    Others were shared/discussed besides that....but IMHO, to go counter to His example, IMHO, is actually reflecting the world in the same ways that those doing tattoos for its own sake do.

    The scriptures are clear that we are not to envy what the World has....and its a beautiful thing when that occurs. Nonetheless, the believer must be careful not to read into the scriptures what the "World" is that should not be coveted when the text does not speak about tattoos/markings as things that are of the world.

    For if that was the case, all instances of the Lord marking His people would be within the same category of "the world."
  8. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    I agree 100%, as what matters within the Word is how the Bible defined things to be....and on that, I thank you for noting as you did:)
  9. Torah

    Torah Senior Veteran


    So you are convince in your reasoning that after G-d said do not put tattoo marks on yourself. And when the Israelites moved into a city that G-d had give them they picked up the ink & needle and started giving each other Tattoos, and Moses and the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, And Jacob had no problem with people doing this as long as they were doing it for the right reason.

    What you have done is disregarded the fact that Tattooing was done by Pagans and for other gods. And as time has gone on the world or society’s has taken this practices and wrapped it in a nice package [calling it art] and offered it to the Church and you have excepted it.

    In my years on this world [and My Father 89] I have watched the change take place. I know this as fact, In Churches and Synagogues Young and old people did not have Tattoos on there body [unless the got it in before they become a believer] As young [worldly] youth coming back from “Job corps” they would have tattoos on themselves. As time went on more and more none believers or Worley youth were getting tattoos. As time goes on these Worley youth get saved and come into the Church, but not letting go of all there worldly ways, And now here we are.

    Summary; Tattoos started as Idolatry by pagans and eventually was excepted by the societies in the world. And it has worked it’s way into the Church.
    And this is the way that Tattoos have been excepted as the norm.

    It is when we make the fatal error of thinking that G-d is like man, that we fall into the trap of idolatry. For when G-d is consider to be like man, the standard of righteousness is also determined by mankind.

    In the Talmud it teaches that in Deut 12:13 That after they cut down the Asherah poles and were burning them, the Israelites were not to even use the fire to cook there meals.

    As time goes on Worley people will go around in the nude. And just a matter if time before the believing community will except this as the norm.

    Go ahead and set your own standard of Holiness.
    If I am going to ere I would rather ere on the side of caution.
  10. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Britannica DOESN'T address historically how the Israelites utilized Tattoo's and how they were told by the Lord to be marked on a number of occassions....though the resource is beneficial in noting how other cultures often utilized tattoos, just as I noted earlier when it came to other cultures in the Americas and other lands using tattoos. Again, if reading the thread, there were already resources noting the HISTORY of Tattoos and how they developed from Europe to the Americas and other places.
    Again, scripture has already been given---and for the most part, largely LEFT ALONE and ignored. If you cannot deal with that, then there's really no logical point in trying to act as if its about others trying to "convince themselves." Again, the scriptures are clear that the Lord had others borrow from the nations to use things for His glory plainly---and the scriptures already note multiple times where tattoos/marks are used.

    If you have issue, the Scriptures/Torah are the issue---and it'd be better to address that rather than trying to focus on posters for disagreeing.

    Incorrect....as that was ALREADY noted earlier in the thread when it came to discussing the nature of tattoos in other cultures---if you actually read...

    One can go to #13 #20 #25 #35 or #36 for where it was already discussed IN DETAIL/LENGTH on the history of Tattoo's, their usage in other cultures and how they were utilized by other nations...

    But As said earlier:

    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  11. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    No offense...but IMHO, the logic you're using---as it concerns guilt by association---is leaving out a host of critical areas. For unless you can address scritpure where the Lord already told His people to tattoo/mark themselves...or address where the Lord told His people to borrow from the nations...then your own comment works against itself. Can one now claim that the Cannanite world wrapped temples/incense into a "nice package" and Israel accepted it when the Lord said that they were to accept the resources they had/use them for HIS Glory? Of course you wouldn't..

    Again, God commanded the Israelite priests to use incense, in worshiping Him, to represent the prayers of the people going up to him. But incense was used in pagan temples and burned to pagan gods, by the Egyptians, long before the LOM. Yet God took something the pagans used and used it for HIS glory. If HE can do that with incense, the list goes on....and trying to focus in on tattoos/markings alone in seeking to make it out as if its different isn't fully in line with the Biblical text.

    The world has NEVER had the market cornered on markings/tattoos anymore than the body of Messiah. And the same goes for a host of issues. The same logic it seems you're utilizing is often what's used in other realms, such as others saying that believers are wrong for using trees/flowers and plants in their services when it comes to decoration (or even Christmas Trees ) because the pagans utilized them for worship.

    In example, Some cultures did use gardens/plants in worship of their gods---including gardening with flowers. When one remembers the nation of Babylon, people understand it was WELL-Known for its splendor. The book of Daniel discusses such, as seen in Daniel 4:35-37 when the King actually got punished with insanity for marveling at the Splendor of His kingdom/forgetting that it was God Himself who gave him his power/rose him up for his own purposes ( Jeremiah 25:8-10/ /Jeremiah 27:5-7 Jeremiah 43:9-11/ ). And with Babylon---wicked as it was, part of the splendor was due to it being known during its time for their extravagant Hanging Botanical Gardens.....once known as one of the Seven Wonders of the World — a manufactured mountain towering above the Babylonian plains, build by King Nebuchadnezzar II for his favorite wife, who was homesick for trees and mountains on the featureless Mesopotamian landscape, in what is now Iraq.




    Someone, seeing the way Babylon made gardens for worship APART from the Lord, could say that there was no other time God's people for ever for making splendid gardens. However, as the Word says, Solomon also was known for his passion for making lavish gardens...as seen in Ecclesiastes 2:4-6 / ...as he was also a student of BOTANY/plant life...
    Solomon's Wisdom

    29 God gave Solomon wisdom and very great insight, and a breadth of understanding as measureless as the sand on the seashore. 30 Solomon's wisdom was greater than the wisdom of all the men of the East, and greater than all the wisdom of Egypt. 31 He was wiser than any other man, including Ethan the Ezrahite—wiser than Heman, Calcol and Darda, the sons of Mahol. And his fame spread to all the surrounding nations. 32 He spoke three thousand proverbs and his songs numbered a thousand and five. 33 He described plant life, from the cedar of Lebanon to the hyssop that grows out of walls. He also taught about animals and birds, reptiles and fish. 34 Men of all nations came to listen to Solomon's wisdom, sent by all the kings of the world, who had heard of his wisdom.
    I undertook great projects: I built houses for myself and planted vineyards. 5 I made gardens and parks and planted all kinds of fruit trees in them. 6 I made reservoirs to water groves of flourishing trees.

    Also, God told his people, before being exiled into Babylon for idolatry, to build gardens also---as seen in Jeremiah 29:4-6 when it came to God saying to them to pray for the welfare of the city they dwelled in--with it being the case prior that He gave them gardens/vineyards of their own that the previous "pagan" nations had already used...as seen in Deuteronomy 6:10-12 /Joshua 24:12-14 /

    For another example relevant to the issue when it comes to cultures using things we do in the Lord, one can consider the ways flowers are utilized in India. For a good read, go online and look up the article entitled "Floraculture and the Sensorium" ( //www.jstor.org/pss/682311 )--as it goes through the historical/sacred perspectives of flowers in differing cultures....including how many times they were offered up in sacrifices in place of offering blood to idols.

    One can also go ONLINE and look up [FONT=arial, helvetica]"[/FONT]Food, Flowers and Perfume" ( //www.shivashakti.com/food.htm ) or they can look up"Temple worship and Rituals(4 of 5) -- Flowers- their importance in temple worship" ( //ssubbanna.sulekha.com/blog/post/2007/11/temple-worship-and-rituals-4-of-flowers-their-importance.htm ).​

    As said in an excerpt from one of the articles, as it relates to Flowers used in worship within Southern India:​

    [FONT=arial, helvetica][​IMG][/FONT]
    Offering flowers to the deity during the upachara is an integral and an important part of worship. It signifies submission of self to the Lord.

    There is also an opinion that suggests , Puja representing submission of flowers to the deity with devotion and reverence is mainly a practice derived from Southern India. According to them, the term puja is derived from Pu meaning flower in southern languages.

    Flowers constitute an important article of worship. The image in the sanctum is decorated with garlands flowers and with unstrung flowers. The flowers are offered to the deity at several stages in worship. Flowers gladden the heart and mind; and confer prosperity. Flowers offered with devotion gratify the Lord. The devotees who visit the temple also offer flowers as token of love and devotion.

    Mahabharata (Anushasana parva- Section-xcviii) describes the flowers fit for offering to deities:” Flowers are of diverse kinds. Some are wild; some grow in the midst of humans and even among them, some do not grow well unless nurtured with great care. Some flowers are from plants grown on mountains; some are from trees that are not prickly; and some from trees that are prickly. Fragrance, beauty of form and taste are also the reasons for their classification. The scent that flowers yield is of two kinds, agreeable and not agreeable. The flowers that emit agreeable scent should be offered to deities. Flowers of plants that are not prickly are generally white in color. Such flowers are acceptable to deities. One desirous of wisdom should offer garlands of aquatic flowers like lotus.

    Flowers of plants born on mountains and in vales and of sweet scent and aspect sprinkled with sandal paste should be duly offered to Gods. Such offerings gratify the Gods.

    The flowers of the following nature are not fit for worship of deities: Flowers of disagreeable scent and aspect; blood -red or black flowers; flowers painful to touch; flowers grown on plants full of thorns; and flowers grown on plants of burial and cremation grounds “

    Agama texts classify flowers fit for worship according to their color, fragrance, shape and origin. They prescribe the type of flowers that may be used in worship. They also mention about flowers that may not be used in worship. In general, flowers that carry a strong odor or that are odorless; flowers un-blossomed or too old; flowers bitten by insects or otherwise mutilated; and flowers picked and kept unused for a day or more are to be avoided. Flowers grown in a garden ( aarama) are considered best; flowers collected from forest (vana) rank next; and flowers bought (vikrita) are inferior.


    Of course, this is simply one way a culture uses flowers/flower design in their worship to whomever they follow. But the fact remains that the usage of flowers was done UNTO another God. Already is it established in scripture that Gods own temple--which King Solomon built--had flowers in it as well

    1 Kings 6:17-19
    The inside of the temple was cedar, carved with gourds and open flowers. Everything was cedar; no stone was to be seen.

    1 Kings 6:28-30
    On the walls all around the temple, in both the inner and outer rooms, he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers.
    1 Kings 6:31-33
    And on the two olive wood doors he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid the cherubim and palm trees with beaten gold.

    The issue of utilizing flowerly designs also occurred earlier in Exodus, as seen in Exodus 25:30-32 /Exodus 25:33-35 /Exodus 37:16-18 /Exodus 37:19-21 ...and with Solomon, anyone reading the text of I Kings 8-9 understands that God Himself was pleased with the work done by Solomon/others in building the temple--and one can go here for more on the usage of flowers/symbols of flowers in God's house.....as His very prescence blessed it and all were amazed. However, it has been established (By the logic of many) that somehow an item or custom used in one place for an idolatrous purpose means that any other usage of such in a differing culture either means that the new ones using it have the same intentions/motives---or, even if they are doing it for differing reasons, they are still offending God by "reminding" him of something he hates......yet by the standard of scripture, that form of "logic" does not make God out to look consistent. For as it is, many religions/cultures were involving flowers as apart of worship in their respective temples LONG before Judaism ever came on the scene. And of course, as the earth belongs to the Lord/all men are aware of the existence of a Supreme Being, perhaps its more than clear that offering parts of the earth to HIM was a hard-wired part of how we were to honor him------except, due to man's sin, that others chose to use it for other darker purposes. As seen in scripture, God was fine with Himself/others using things others took for bad..things that HE made first/owns.


    There's already a precedent in scripture that many times, things "pagan" nations used were not in their "ownership"--with Gods people doing the same thing since what was being done was often a UNIVERSAL gig. It's also something known as "common grace"--where God reveals aspects of himself to many differing cultures, even though those cultures may abuse/use it for the wrong reasons. Additionally, there's also the reality in scripture that many of the things God blessed his people with already came from other nations who originally built/made those things for DIFFERING purposes...and with the Lord giving it to his people for a proper usage. ​
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  12. anisavta

    anisavta Never Forget!

    Lets face it Torah - Christian justification of any of HaShem's commands is the rule of thumb today. G~d pronounced it - except for me...
  13. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Has nothing to do with whether or not one's a "Christian" since plenty of Messianics have addressed it faithfully/noted where many refuse to touch the Torah in its fullness because of the pre-commitment to choosing to be against what may bother them rather than dealing with scripture. It has already been noted by many Messianics over the years that its a weak attempt at addressing scriptures when one must resort to saying "Oh, that's just Christian.."---as if that either proves anything or addresses what has already been said from a Hebraic mindset. But on the issue, HaShem already mentioned in His commands where tattoos/markings were appropriate---and as said before, the following scriptures have YET to be touched by yourself/others, despite all of the claims about "justification"...namely Revelation 19:15 where Messiah is marked with his OWN Name upon Himself.

    HaShem already noted where markings occurred---and if He himself is marked/does so with His PEOPLE when the world is marking their own, His example is what is the standard. One can either square with that...or come to the reality that they really may not know HaShem as well as they think:cool:

    In all reality, it is a "justification" for one to DENY that HaShem/Messiah allowed markings/tattoo's of themselves when they wish to not believe it because they personally don't like it....

    And on the other scriptures that you ignored, for reference:

    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    What you're saying, as it concerns Churches and Synagouges with the Young/Old, is an issue of cultural evolution ...in regards to seeing how what was not as popular in one region became gradually different in time. However, what seems to be missed by yourself is that it doesn't matter whether or not something has grown in popularity when it comes to establishing whether its good or bad. For tattooing/markings were already happening in OTHER cultures long before it became more well-known in the West...and for those cultures who allowed tattoos/markings, it wasn't an issue for them..including when the Gospel was presented.

    One must show that an action is "wordly" because of the fruit rather than just because people in the world do it. For by that logic, its "wordly" to support Starbucks Coffee because of how popular the world celebrates it....and its wordly to drive cars because they have grown in popularity, with the unsaved neighbors down the road using them as well.

    For another practical example, one can consider body piercing. Some of it was discussed before, as seen here in #71 ..for there are many in the church saying that any kind of BODY Piercing is of the Devil/worldly --be it nose tattoos, nose rings or many other types. Its similar to the tattoo issue in that many condemn it based upon it being an issue of popularity today. Concerning body piercing goes, the practice is mentioned or alluded to several times in the Bible. For example, the piercing of the ear of a bought servant was performed to bear witness that the servant has chosen to serve, until death, his master:

    "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he shall serve six years; and in the seventh he shall go out free and pay nothing. If he comes in by himself, he shall go out by himself; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him.

    "If his master has given him a wife, and she has borne him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself.

    "But if the servant plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to the judges. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, AND HIS MASTER SHALL PIERCE HIS EAR WITH AN AWL; and he shall serve him forever." (Exodus 21:2-6, see also Deuteronomy 15:17)
    An allusion to body piercing is made in Isaiah 3:18-24 where it states that there will be nose jewels removed...and moreover, another example of where a person's ear is (likely) pierced is in the book of Ezekiel. When God made a covenant with Israel he considered it like entering into a marriage covenant. As a gift to her (Israel) God said:

    "I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of badger skin; I clothed you with fine linen and covered you with silk. I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your wrists, and a chain on your neck. And I put a jewel in your nose, EARRINGS IN YOUR EARS, and a beautiful crown on your head." (Ezekiel 16:10-12)
    The wearing of earrings and the piercing needed to wear them (and body piercing in general) are not prohibited in scripture..including things such as Nose rings ( Genesis 24:21-23, Genesis 24:29-31 , )

    To go from thinking all nose rings were "demonic" to seeing how scripture has always been plain about nose rings as a sign of beauty was a wild ride [​IMG]. For another practical example, Another solid article that aided me greatly on the issue can be found if going online/looking up the article entitled "Body Piercing in Jewish Law - My Jewish Learning" ( //www.myjewishlearning.com/practices/Ethics/Our_Bodies/Adorning_the_Body/Body_Piercing.shtml ).

    In reality, Tattoos and markings were used by pagans AS WELL as believers, rather than something that started 100% for idolatry and later changed. However, it can also be said that INCENSE in temples and perfumes used to worship were also BEGUN by pagans--and gradually accepted in the Body of Messiah, from the OT and onward when the Lord told his people how to go about things. Thus, unless one is willing to say that the Lord Himself is "wordly" or supporting "paganism" because of what he did with the tabernacle/temple, there's a significant degree of inconsistency.

    The entire issue of inconsistency is seen the most plainly in the fact that we're all here using a INTERNET FORUM---a concept that was NOT made by believers, but by pagans. On the issue of not using something due to where it originated from, if your logic follows through, then there's a GLARING inconsistency since the internet was not developed for the sake of GLORIFYING THE LORD ORIGINALLY. It was created for the sake of man, his glorification, and used in a system that was for secular HUMANISM--WHICH is a religion. And it is utilized in popular fashion for a whole host of evils, be it pornagraphy or gossip sites and many other things.

    Yet here we are using it for the Glory of the Lord----and there has not been one mention by others that it is "pagan"/"wordly" and not to be used in the Church. The fact that it has been utilized by the believers in Messiah on many things shows plainly that there's really not a strong-held notion that worldliness is seen/demonstrated whenever those outside of Christ use something.

    IMHO, there's no way your logic can follow through and yet you be in the clear on many things if trying to focus on the orgins of tattoos/markings---as what are the orgins of things that did not originate in the Lord? Clothes, TV, Cars, etc? How far do we take this? Others may have issue with it--but if so, I'd wonder how far the logic would go. Where did the idea for the internet come from? God or man? And seeing that this was used for both good or evil, what do we do with it?

    Or for that matter, where is the thought process for being a doctor? What is the philosophy behind being a doctor/practicing medicine......? In all honesty, because one going to college will QUICKLY see that not all the techniques/methodologies given for students to study were based on a "BIBLICAL" perspective or found solely in the Bible.

    Or when you lose a loved one to someone in drunk driving---and your lawyer comes in to defend the issue/seek justice, what does one do with the fact of his being educated in a university that wasn't based in GOD? Or that his major in CRIMINAL JUSTICE probably learned it in a class that based the techniques off of a HUMANISTIC reasoning (as does the rest of the modern-day justice system). Is that thrown out due to false ideologies? What of THE SOCRATIC METHOD, which is something all lawyers use when dealing with cases (even though that originated where----GREECE, with SocrateS who was not a BELIEVER). Or when the police arrive, is the same standard used for A.A. used on them when they help people?

    Philosophy was used in Greek Culture in worship of man's knowledge/oneself---Does that mean that the practice for Paul when he used it or us when we do so (as well as many of the other ideas that came from ATHENS, such as who not only helped to shape the ideas of LOGIC that many of the other things we hold as TRUE today, such as in the areas of
    • anatomy
    • astronomy
    • economics
    • embryology
    • geography
    • geology
    • meteorology
    • physics and

    • zoology

    • aesthetics
    • ethics
    • government
    • metaphysics
    • politics
    • psychology
    • rhetoric
    • theology

    The very buildings made in our own CAPITOL (in the U.S) recieve their designs from where? Greek and Roman culture...but it'd be foolish to go to war over that. Another example to consider:
    Acts 19

    The Riot in Ephesus

    23About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way. 24A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought in no little business for the craftsmen. 25He called them together, along with the workmen in related trades, and said: "Men, you know we receive a good income from this business.

    Arts and Crafts were in high regard in this paticular culture-----though it also occured within other cultures as well, including Biblical Culture as the Lord also was for artistic design/crafts.
    Exodus 31:2-4
    2 “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze, 5 in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship.

    Exodus 35:30-32 / Exodus 35
    The Artisans Called by God

    30 And Moses said to the children of Israel, “See, the LORD has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah; 31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship, 32 to design artistic works, to work in gold and silver and bronze, 33 in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of artistic workmanship.

    30 Then Moses said to the Israelites, "See, the LORD has chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 31 and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- 32 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 33 to cut and set stones, to work in wood and to engage in all kinds of artistic craftsmanship. 34 And he has given both him and Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, the ability to teach others. 35 He has filled them with skill to do all kinds of work as craftsmen, designers, embroiderers in blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen, and weavers—all of them master craftsmen and designers. Exodus 35

    If your logic applies, though, does this mean that because the people coming out of the Greek Culture with arts and crafts/still desiring to do so would be wrong if they realized that arts/crafts had been done within a Hebraic/Christian CUlture and could be done unto the Lord?

    The list goes on....all wisdom producing Good comes from the heart of God, James 3:12-18, Colossians 2, etc)
    James 1:17
    Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
    Things like the printing press for publishing books, the internet, computers, cars for transportation, MOVIES/MEDIA, CD's, MP3's etc. were also not around in the early church. Yet we depend on them for getting to church meetings, we use these formats for teaching, reading, communicating, and writing books. And the ideas for those things DIDN'T COME FROM THE DEVIL---No more than the idea for ELECTRICITY By FRANKLIN/OTHERS, Gravity by Issac Newton, Physics, Zoology, Biology, Scienctific Discoveries, etc...

    To be clear, anything that, in itself, is contrary to Biblical truth is to be exposed and avoided. This includes philosophies and practices.

    For example, if astronomy is not contrary to nor in competition with Biblical truth a believer can participate in those parts of it that are not anti-Biblical truth.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  15. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

    In Relationship
    And those so quick to justify their disobedience will do so no matter what is said to them. Rather than hearing the truth of what is being said, they are busy coming up with more and more ways to justify or ignore. It's a no win. They should be lift to their own devices.
  16. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    When what is said already avoids a host of scripture, it is not about "Torah" anymore...but rather about one's own justification of what they desire even as they say that only others "justify".

    This is said plainly in light of what appears to be an inability to address where Messiah already went counter to claims that markings/tattoos were never done by the Lord. For the best one can do is bury their heads in the ground as if scripture doesn't say PLAINLY what it does:cool:

    If you or others support Torah, I think it'd be beneficial to begin addressing it fully where it hasn't yet. Otherwise, as many other Messianics (who've long left) have noted to one another over the years, people may simply be decieving themselves into believing that they even remotely care for what the OT says at all points. In all realness, there's no need trying to claim "disobediance" when one is already disobediant To the example of Messiah when it comes to markings....no matter what is said to you or others who don't address the scriptures:

    The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast

    11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

    16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

    12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
    As said before, people often discuss how only someone wishing to serve the anti-christ would be about markings...as that's what seems to occur in Revelation 13:15-17 / Revelation 13 /Revelation 14:8-10 Revelation 14 /Revelation 15:1-3 / Revelation 16:1-3 / Revelation 19:19-21 / Revelation 19 / Revelation 20:3-5 when it comes to recieving the "mark of the beast"--and with that, at times the scriptures in Leviticus are used in association. But the TANAK already shows instances where marking was done by the Lord as well...with Him writing HIS Name upon them/marking them..

    Moreover, Ezekiel 9:4/Ezekiel 9:3-5 /Ezekiel 9:5-7 are plain in what they state when it comes to the prophet being commanded by God to put a mark on the foreheads fo those who weep over evil....

    Moreover, As said earlier when considering what Isaiah 44:5 says:

    Isa 44:5
    One will say, I am the Lord's; and another will call himself by the name of Jacob; and another will write [even brand or tattoo] upon his hand, I am the Lord's, and surname himself by the [honorable] name of Israel.

    Not ONCE have any of those scriptures been touched by anyone claiming to "love Torah" when it comes to their being against tattoos/marks..and yet its acted as if nothing has been said.

    Y, it is not "truth" when what is offered skips over what the Torah already discusses on multiple parts. Its partiality in judging, which the scriptures note to not be a good thing ( Proverbs 24:22-24 ). For the Lord desires accurate scales/balances ( Proverbs 16:10-12/ Proverbs 11:1-3 /Proverbs 20:23 /Hosea 12:6-8 /Micah 6:10-12 ). Sincerly, until you or others actually address scriptures that DO NOT agree with any of your stances, IMHO, you have very little room to claim anything about trying to either "justify" or "ignore." If you don't like tattoos or markings, cool....for there's nothing wrong with that. However, trying to claim one does so because of what the Torah says holds no water when you cannot address Torah on where it advocates it.....
    I agree...which is why those who cannot really ADDRESS scripture are largely ignored if/when they don't deal with the Word.

    The more people respond with arguments via ignoral or selection, the more Contra's sentiments seem to show themselves true that many don't truly understand what Torah was ever about....and thus, why scripture is true about the dangers when people show partiality in judging/do not even see it. That individual (or group) will never learn.

    As it concerns Tattoos, it is not an issue that all within the Messianic Jewish movement are even united on. Messianic Jewish apologist, Dr.Michael Brown, sought to cover the issue in-depth on his website when it came to Tattoos/Evangelism amongst those who have Tattoo's ...and there was some good discussion on the matter. As said best by another on the matter:
    The Law in the Old Testament dealt with physical things, like murder, adultery, food, cleanliness, etc….but as Jer. 33 tells us the law under the new covenant is one written on the hearts. Jesus tells us that it is not what goes into a man that defiles him (dealing with the washing of hands), but what comes out.
    O.T. – Murder (physical) N.T – Hate (heart)
    O.T. – Adultery (physcial) N.T – Lust (heart)
    The physical O.T laws became N.T heart attitudes that birth obedience.

    So what about Lev. 19 – Verse 26-29 deal with pagan worship. In the N.T. we find out that worship is not physical things (like music and clapping – even though these are good to be used in worship) but rather worship is from the heart. It is spirit and truth from the inside. Jesus tells the woman at the well that it doesn’t matter what mountain they worship on, the issue is knowing who you are worshipping and having your heart set on loving God.

    It is no longer cutting the corners of your beard that is pagan worship, but if you are cutting your beard with a heart to worship false gods, it is wrong. The same goes for tatoos. A tatoo in and of itself is not wrong. It is the motive behind the tatoo, and what the tatoo depicts that make it wrong of not.

    Getting a tatoo that is symbolic of Christ and my deep relationship with Him is not something that is pagan worship. So I would not be breaking the Law that is written on my heart.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    I agree---but the same thing goes in reverse when it comes to things MAN is bothered by...and assuming that because he's bothered by it, so is the Lord. This is the case with Tattoos/markings, as its selective argumentation to focus in on that/make a case and yet ignore where the Lord already did otherwise in utilizing things made by man for His glory. To do so is to make God in OUR IMAGE--offended by what we become bothered by...and essentially, we make an idol out of the Lord.

    Trying to quote Deuteronomy 12:13 still DOES NOT address where the Lord already told his people to utilize materials from the nations that He gave to them, as seen plainly with how He gave them gardens/vineyards of their own that the previous "pagan" nations had already used...as seen in Deuteronomy 6:10-12 /Joshua 24:12-14 /

    Scripture must go with scripture. As it concerns the Talmud, it has often been the case that what is said in it does not necessarily line up with how the Messiah lived...and if the Talmud does not address scripture where it differs, the Talmud is not to be the standard.
    To say such, however, is to support argument by exaggeration---as the scriptures never give room for walking around naked without cause. The subject of nudity in its proper context was actually discussed elsewhere, as seen here in #29
    You are free to do as you like. However, if not addressing all that the Torah says on a subject, then one may not be as cautious as they would like since the Word warns against either adding to or subtracting from Torah....and assuming that others disagreeing with your view is "setting one's own standard of Holiness" is not cautious as the Lord advocates when it comes to not showing partiality in judging.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2011
  18. jcpro

    jcpro Newbie

    Perhaps Christianity could divorce itself from the "Old Testament" altogether instead of twisting itself into a pretzel trying to fit a square peg into a round hole? From what I've discovered looking at other treads on CF, most Christians there are comfortable with that and feel that the clean break has already been made with the onset of the Paul's teachings.
  19. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Ambassadors

    Oriental Orthodox
    Christianity would never have to "divorce" itself in order for it to be what it is, especially when examining the culture/history of it as well as the history of the Messianic Movement and its evolution from what it was originally when it came to the Hebrew Christian Alliance 30-40yrs ago. As someone else once stated, Judaism can exist without Christianity...but Christianity cannot exist without Judaism...aand for more on where that issue was discussed in-depth, one can go to threads such as Messianic Judaism vs. Conservative Christianity and posts such as #57 / #138 #29. One can also see posts such as Messianic Judaism and Ethiopian Orthodoxy ( as seen here in #24 , on how the Ethopian Orthodox Church has been supported by Judaism in supporting Torah on many points ) and other threads such as #51 , #53 , #54. #90 #92 , #94 , and #96. /#210

    Its always interesting to see how many try to focus upon "Christianity" as if it alone is to be considered "divorced" from the OT when others within Judaism have long noted that much of what occurs within Messianic Judaism is divorced with real Judaism due to their beliefs in Messiah...and the many ways in which the OT is not truly practiced at all by others today as it was then. But outside of that, where most have issue is the interpretation of the OT Laws. This is seen even within Judaism, as it concerns the many camps LITERALLY at war with one another, be it with the Reform Jews battling the Conservative ..or the Orthodox fighting against the Chasidic. Each group often assumes the other is making a "pretzel trying to fit a square peg into a round hole" because the other does not share an interpretation of Torah that the other upholds. The issue of Tattoo's is a clear example of that, seeing how many within Judaism don't see the Torah as static---whereas others see it as fluid....and for others who see it was forbidden to only do markings to other gods/idolatry, others assume the text ONLY means all forms of markings are off. Its not as if others have not said that Judaism today is essentially DISCONNECTED from the OT--even as many within Judaism assume that "Christianity" is the only one disconnected from it..
    For those Christians that say that nothing of the OT applies, it is error...as the OT has many differing applications/concepts still relevant for today in the New Testament. Of course, what has happened today is that many Messianics (often on the fringes) have been quick to assume that Paul himself cannot be trusted---and thus, they do damage to the name of Christ on a myriad of levels. Most don't even study Church history when it comes to numerous accounts of Jewish believers who supported Paul/the Early Church and felt it in no way went counter to a good expression of Judaism.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  20. Torah

    Torah Senior Veteran

    G-d says “Do not put tattoo marks on yourself.” And that’s not good enough.
    To many, G-d is just a cool guy with a tat on his arm and gives a thumbs up.

    It is when you make the fatal error of thinking that G-d is just a cool guy, that you have fallen into the trap of idolatry. For when G-d is consider to be like man, the standard of righteousness / Holiness is also determined by you.

    Idolatry : immoderate attachment or devotion to something {being tattoos]
    The word idea-{a formulated thought or opinion) comes from the word idolatry.

    I am sure this will send you into a long rant with lots of photos.

    Titus 3: 9 -10