Annihilation in Matthew 10:28

[trident343]

For those of you that believe in the endless eternal conscious torment of Hell for the unsaved, what is your rebuttal to Matthew 10:28 ?

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Brother Chris]

That verse supports the eternal destruction of man in hell. At the great white throne judgement all the unsaved will be resurrected and given new bodies that will be suited for the lake of fire. These bodies will never be consumed, but they will feel the torment of hell. That's what "destroy" means.

 

[heymikey80]

The term "destroy" is the one for "ruin". For instance, the Gospels use this word to describe how an old wineskin is "ruined" by new wine. However, the wineskin is not completely annihilated by the wine. It's not repairable, and the only thing you can do with it is to put it where it's never used again.

 

[James1979]

Brother Chris,

There is no where in scripture that says the unsaved will have bodies prepared for eternal torment in hell/lake of fire. It's no where to be found.

But on Judgment when Christ comes back, there will be a resurrection for the believers when their saved soul and new bodies made ready for heaven will reunited once again.

Now for the unsaved, it talks about the earth spitting out the remains of the unsaved (bones, dust, etc, I have to look for the verse on where it speaks about this) out onto the ground for open display in the eyes of God in complete shame while the unsaved have who previously die won't know about this because they have already cease to exist and for the ones who are alive, God will destroyed them by fire and they'll be no more forever more.

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

Brother Chris,

There is no where in scripture that says the unsaved will have bodies prepared for eternal torment in hell/lake of fire. It's no where to be found.

But on Judgment when Christ comes back, there will be a resurrection for the believers when their saved soul and new bodies made ready for heaven will reunited once again.

Now for the unsaved, it talks about the earth spitting out the remains of the unsaved (bones, dust, etc, I have to look for the verse on where it speaks about this) out onto the ground for open display in the eyes of God in complete shame while the unsaved have who previously die won't know about this because they have already cease to exist and for the ones who are alive, God will destroyed them by fire and they'll be no more forever more.

Nope, you're not right at all.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[BondiHarry]

Nope, you're not right at all.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Part of the punishment those who reject Jesus will receive is the 2nd death and that punishment IS eternal (they will NEVER be resurrected or know life again).

 

[Brother Chris]

Brother Chris,

There is no where in scripture that says the unsaved will have bodies prepared for eternal torment in hell/lake of fire. It's no where to be found.

But on Judgment when Christ comes back, there will be a resurrection for the believers when their saved soul and new bodies made ready for heaven will reunited once again.

Now for the unsaved, it talks about the earth spitting out the remains of the unsaved (bones, dust, etc, I have to look for the verse on where it speaks about this) out onto the ground for open display in the eyes of God in complete shame while the unsaved have who previously die won't know about this because they have already cease to exist and for the ones who are alive, God will destroyed them by fire and they'll be no more forever more.

Although the bible does not explicitly say the unsaved will receive new bodies suited for the lake of fire, it is implied that they will. As someone else posted Matthew 25:46 that the unrighteous will go into eternal punishment, the only way someone can experience the full torment of hell without dying or being consumed by it's flames, is if the new body they receive will not be consumed at all. It is no different than someone being burned alive yet they never die and the pain never ceases. It just goes on and on. The just punishment for offending an eternal God is an eternal punishment. You may not like that, but that's what the bible teaches.

 

[Blueforest]

Eternal destruction.

Sounds pretty self-explanatory to me.

It doesn't say 'eternal torture.'

 

[nobdysfool]

Mods, please move this thread to the Unorthodox Theology forum, where it belongs....

 

[trident343]

Annihilationist interpretation:
Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which annihilate the body, but are not able to annihilate the soul: but rather fear him which is able to annihilate both soul and body in hell.

Traditionalist interpretation:
Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
And fear not them which ruin the body, but are not able to ruin the Soul but rather fear him which is able to ruin both soul and body in hell.

I think the first interpretation makes much more sense. Jesus is warning us about what happens to the soul in hell. If eternal torture was implies wouldn't a better interpretation be fear the one who can destroy the body but preserve the soul in hell?

 

[ptomwebster]

Charles Spurgeon,

So you must think that if you write something BIG it is correct or people will believe it.

 

[ThatWhichIsnt]

Luke 16:19-31

19"There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.[f] The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers[g]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

 

[trident343]

Luke 16:19-31

19"There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.[f] The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers[g]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

Many people think this is a parable playing of Jewish fables and non-biblical works like pseudopigrphya like "apocalypse of Zephaniah" and "testament of abraham".
Even It is literal, it only deals with the intermediate state between death and final judgment.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Sorry - but the Statment of Faith for CF has this at the bottom of it:

Discussions about Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs may take place in the Christian-Only forums, all discussions regarding non-Nicene and non-Trinitarian topics will take place in Unorthodox Theology. Those topics include (but are not limited to)
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This thread is being moved to Unorthodox Theology.

​

 

[Super Kal]

lol, and what about Pre-Nicene theology? is that "unorthodox" as well?

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Nope, you're not right at all.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I don't get it. I can't see your point for the 90 font text.

 

[Tavita]

For those of you that believe in the endless eternal conscious torment of Hell for the unsaved, what is your rebuttal to Matthew 10:28 ?

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The verse to me means God is ABLE to destroy body and soul but it doesn't automatically follow that He will.

The word destroy also doesn't mean 'kill', it means 'lost', and 'ruin', as someone else pointed out.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

If destroy meant kill then the above verse would read 'The thief comes only to steal and kill and kill'......doesn't make sense.

In the gospels the Greek word used for the 'lost' coin and 'lost' prodigal son is 'appolumai' the word used for destroy.

 

[trident343]

The verse to me means God is ABLE to destroy body and soul but it doesn't automatically follow that He will.

I find this argument weak. If Eternal torment were true, why would Jesus give a warning about something which is weaker than what he would really do.

That's like a policeman saying to somebody who is contemplating a crime "don't commit armed robbery, because you might get caught and the judge CAN sentence you to a week in prison". When in reality the sentence would be much worse for a crime like that.

 

[trident343]

The verse to me means God is ABLE to destroy body and soul but it doesn't automatically follow that He will.

The word destroy also doesn't mean 'kill', it means 'lost', and 'ruin', as someone else pointed out.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

If destroy meant kill then the above verse would read 'The thief comes only to steal and kill and kill'......doesn't make sense.

In the gospels the Greek word used for the 'lost' coin and 'lost' prodigal son is 'appolumai' the word used for destroy.

Have you done the word study yourself? Or are you just regurgitating?
I actually have done the word study myself. The point of a word study is to help us determine the proper intended meaning the authors were communicating, not the meaning that best suits ones preferred theology.

Yes one of Apollumi translations is translated as lose, loses, or lost. So that means matthew 10:28 necessarily must be using that as the meaning right? Not at all! Just because a word has multiple meanings doesn't mean it's a wildcard we just get to pick the translation for. That's why I studied this out. I'll post my conclusions of my study later.

 

[trident343]

In my study of the usage if the Greek word "Apollumi" in the New testament, I have discovered a few thing I did not realize before. Most scholars take a shallow view of translation without any depth to their searching. They will look in a concordance and see the different translations of the word and then basically pick out whatever meaning they like to read into the text. To have a proper subjective view of the intended meaning, we must look deeper at how the word is used, and consider the proper context.

In my study, I counted appolumi used 87 times in the new testament. I might have missed a couple verses but most people say it is used around 90 times in the NT, so I'm not too far off.
In the KJV the word is translated:
25 times as "Destroy" or "Destroyed"
33 times as "Perish","Perished", or "Perishing"
27 times as Lose, Loses, or Lost.
1 time as "Marred"
1 time as "Die"

Of the 87 times, 27 times are in reference to physical death.
Of the 27 times lose, loses, or lost is used, only 4 times is it not used in the context or the second death; 3 times it's used in the context of eternal rewards, 1 time when Jesus told the disciples to gather the bread from the miracle he did so none of the bread would be "lost"
All of the 23 other times it is used is in a context that the result will be the second death. The lost sheep,the prodigal child, and lost coin are all symbols of people who are spiritually lost and will die the second death unless they are found. Other uses are about the lost or losing your soul.