How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Oncedeceived]

Uh, no. Quality of life has vastly improved as the U.S. has moved to become a secular nation.

Source?

How does he see it differently?

Death just is a step into His presence.

Not unusual.

How many times would be considered "not unusual"?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Kinda hard to love someone when you aren't sure they exist.

That is why it is a personal relationship. You don't start out that way.

 

[Oncedeceived]

God bless, sis!

Stay the course!

Thanks for the blessing.

 

[Simply_Amazing]

He likes when we choose Him even when it seems to hard to do so. It allows us to learn to love Him rather than just worship without feelings. He loves us so He wants us to be able to love Him too.

This is nuts. We should make the seemingly wrong choice because God (who we only believe if we made the seemingly wrong choice) said so?

You must realize how utterly bad this argument is?

 

[selfinflikted]

That is why it is a personal relationship. You don't start out that way.

I tried for years to initiate a relationship with god. No dice. I suppose in some ways I'm jealous of those of you who claim to have found this relationship for yourselves. I'm not used to failure.

 

[AV1611VET]

I tried for years to initiate a relationship with god. No dice. I suppose in some ways I'm jealous of those of you who claim to have found this relationship for yourselves. I'm not used to failure.

He loves you and died on the Cross for your sins -- start from there and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Simply_Amazing]

Source?

A History of the Standard of Living in the United States | Economic History Services
Child labor laws in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_...orums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=58097703
Food and Drug Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We both agree that the U.S. has become more secular over the years. While it should be obvious, here is some evidence that quality of life in the U.S. has drastically improved.

Death just is a step into His presence.

That's fine. Then it shouldn't be celebrated that a child was prevented from His presence. (i.e. If you believed this, you wouldn't be making the claim that the child's survival was a miracle in the first place)

How many times would be considered "not unusual"?

I don't know exactly. This link indicates that they happen several times a year in Nebraska. Considering Nebraska's high Christian population, I guarantee you there are several people praying for a sign when one goes off. This is by no means an extraordinary event.

Nebraska Game and Parks Commission - NEBRASKAland Magazine

 

[Skaloop]

So you have been listening.

Well, it's a pretty standard excuse that I've been hearing for years.

But it creates a false dichotomy in a way. And atheist like me would require pretty strong evidence to believe in God. But that would pretty much constitute proof, which would eliminate my choice in the matter. But it then seems that the only other alternative is absolutely nothing at all to try to convince me. But there's a lot of middle-ground; He would know exactly how much I would need to set me on the proper path while at the same time not being so much as to remove all doubt.

You got enough to convince you without over-riding your free will. Why don't I?

Still waiting on that wrong number phone call...

 

[selfinflikted]

He loves you and died on the Cross for your sins -- start from there and let the chips fall where they may.

I did.

Like Skaloop said: If there is a god, he'd know what it takes. I won't put my life, or reasoning, on hold while I wait though.

 

[Non sequitur]

Uh...Christians.

If you know someone exists it is pretty hard to doubt their existence after that. We doubt in other things, but once you know God is real how do you unknow that?

AV seems to think they do.

He seems pretty hell bent (no pun intended) on being a Christian, but acknowledges they doubt.

 

[Non sequitur]

YES or NO -- did Darwin [hopefully] make a deathbed conversion?

In your opinion, of course.

Since his sister, who was at his deathbed, said he didn't, then I'd say that he did not.

 

[Non sequitur]

He loves you and died on the Cross for your sins -- start from there and let the chips fall where they may.

You know what I find creepy?

People who I've never met in person, silently stalk me, leave me un-decoded messages and profess their love for me...

 

[Oncedeceived]

Simply_Amazing;58097817]A History of the Standard of Living in the United States | Economic History Services
Child labor laws in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_...orums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=58097703
Food and Drug Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We both agree that the U.S. has become more secular over the years. While it should be obvious, here is some evidence that quality of life in the U.S. has drastically improved.

The first one:

From 1820 to 1950 the GDP per capita doubled or more than doubled
From 1950 to 1973 it almost doubled but didn't quite make it
From 1973 to 1990 it is losing ground about 2100 is all it increases
From 1990 to 1998 it only gains around 4100

From this we see the opposite of what you are claiming.

The second one: I don't see a real connection to our conversation unless you are claiming that child labor has decreased.

The third one:
Dead link

Fourth one:

What?

That's fine. Then it shouldn't be celebrated that a child was prevented from His presence.

I don't know if you really don't understand or you just want to argue. We as human beings do not want to lose love ones. That simple. They go on to a better place but we still don't want to see them go.

(i.e. If you believed this, you wouldn't be making the claim that the child's survival was a miracle in the first place)

Your misunderstanding.

I don't know exactly. This link indicates that they happen several times a year in Nebraska. Considering Nebraska's high Christian population, I guarantee you there are several people praying for a sign when one goes off. This is by no means an extraordinary event.

Nebraska Game and Parks Commission - NEBRASKAland Magazine

If you look at the date it is 2004 and most all others are as well. It happened two times in that year. As I said before, people who have lived in the area longer than I claim that they have seen like one in twenty years.

 

[Simply_Amazing]

Well, it's a pretty standard excuse that I've been hearing for years.

But it creates a false dichotomy in a way. And atheist like me would require pretty strong evidence to believe in God. But that would pretty much constitute proof, which would eliminate my choice in the matter. But it then seems that the only other alternative is absolutely nothing at all to try to convince me. But there's a lot of middle-ground; He would know exactly how much I would need to set me on the proper path while at the same time not being so much as to remove all doubt.

You got enough to convince you without over-riding your free will. Why don't I?

Still waiting on that wrong number phone call...

I don't know. I think that if providing incontrovertible evidence is forcing you to do something, there isn't much free will in existence from any perspective.

Believing in God isn't the same as loving him. Christians seem to think that deciding not to believe that God exists on evidence grounds is denying God. If we had full knowledge of our choice, we would reject him out of selfishness, and accept him out of love. Being able to make an informed decision doesn't destroy any kind of free will.

 

[Simply_Amazing]

The first one:

From 1820 to 1950 the GDP per capita doubled or more than doubled
From 1950 to 1973 it almost doubled but didn't quite make it
From 1973 to 1990 it is losing ground about 2100 is all it increases
From 1990 to 1998 it only gains around 4100

Yes, the key word is gaining. But lets address the issue here:

You can honestly say that quality of life was better in the 1800's? Where medical care involved unsafe amputation, unclean instruments, and bleeding the patient to remove "bad blood"? Where children could be sent to work in terrible conditions from an early age? Where women and African Americans couldn't vote? Where there was no standard for what was in your food? Where there was no agency regulating how employees were treated? Where the majority of your children died early on due to terrible conditions?

I guess a better question would be, how do you define standard of living? Ethically? Health wise? Education wise? Safety wise? By infant mortality? By wealth? Because all of these have improved.

I don't know if you really don't understand or you just want to argue. We as human beings do not want to lose love ones. That simple. They go on to a better place but we still don't want to see them go.

I'm not sure I follow. Do you consider death as a positive or a negative? (or positive but negative for loved ones?)

So if a child is spared from death, it's a happy occasion. But if the child had died, it would have simply been his time to go to heaven? It's a cop out.

If you look at the date it is 2004 and most all others are as well. It happened two times in that year. As I said before, people who have lived in the area longer than I claim that they have seen like one in twenty years.

That website indicates that there were multiple ones the year the article was written. Aurora's happen all the time, but you just need a clear enough sky to see them. I think empirical evidence will work better than hearsay. What evidence would you like to provide? (I'm not sure what's changed atmospherically between now and 04 )

 

[Non sequitur]

If you look at the date it is 2004 and most all others are as well. It happened two times in that year. As I said before, people who have lived in the area longer than I claim that they have seen like one in twenty years.

The fact that the information is old and that other people don't hardly see it in person much reminds me of a book I once read...

 

[Skaloop]

The first one:

From 1820 to 1950 the GDP per capita doubled or more than doubled
From 1950 to 1973 it almost doubled but didn't quite make it
From 1973 to 1990 it is losing ground about 2100 is all it increases
From 1990 to 1998 it only gains around 4100

From this we see the opposite of what you are claiming.

Wait, so he claims things have improved, you show the numbers showing that things have improved (as far as GDP), but claim they show the opposite of improvement?

ETA: and which table are you getting your info from (this page, for reference: http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/steckel.standard.living.us)? I assume it's Table 1. But your 1973-1990 number isn't in there, and is way off. You also seem to be ignoring the annual growth rate, which is higher for 1973, 1990, and 1998 than it is for 1870, 1913, and 1950. Plus, the years covered in each increment is significantly shorter; 1913 to 1950 covers a much longer time than 1990 to 1998, yet the GDP increased by about the same amount. The biggest increase in annual growth is between 1950 and 1973, the era many suggest as the time when secularism/liberalism/what-have-you was on its biggest rise.

 

[Non sequitur]

From 1820 to 1950 the GDP per capita doubled or more than doubled
From 1950 to 1973 it almost doubled but didn't quite make it
From 1973 to 1990 it is losing ground about 2100 is all it increases
From 1990 to 1998 it only gains around 4100

"The two major peaks of the federal deficit in the 20th century occured during World War I and World War II. Deficits increased steadily from the 1960s through the early 1990s, and then declined rapidly for the remainder of the 1990s. The federal deficit went over 10 percent of GDP in the aftermath of the financial crisis of 2008."

Must have been the atheists...

 

[Oncedeceived]

This is nuts. We should make the seemingly wrong choice because God (who we only believe if we made the seemingly wrong choice) said so?

You must realize how utterly bad this argument is?

Is this an argument, I'm sorry, I was under the impression this was simply a discussion.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I tried for years to initiate a relationship with god. No dice. I suppose in some ways I'm jealous of those of you who claim to have found this relationship for yourselves. I'm not used to failure.

First of all you need to know it is not a failure.

I understand how you feel, I was the same way. I would wonder what do these people have that I don't? What makes them so certain? Why can't I know what they do? I wanted it. But I didn't want to just believe for beliefs sake. It was years for me too.