Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[razeontherock]

You aren't understanding one of the core ideas of Christianity and that is that people AREN'T GOOD no matter what. Doesn't matter what you do, how willingly you do it, how many people you help or benefit. It doesn't matter if you open up a charity and feed all the hungry kids, clothe all the naked kids, and shelter all the homeless. It doesn't matter if you kill a dictator murdering his own people. It doesn't matter if you go back in time and kill the guy who made Monster Energy. Because you are a human being you are automatically evil and deserving of torment no matter what. Period. End of discussion.

This is not what the original Church in the book of Acts believed or taught. FYI
(Yes, I know churchianity does say many of these things)

 

[BleedingHeart]

You mean as in eternal torment?

Not all of us are agreement on eternal torment. Some of us see it as eternal death, as in dead forever, but not before being burnt to ashes.

The way I see this, there was a time when we all were in non-existence. God then took us out of non-existence and brought us into existence to do a job, but we refused to do that job. So God then simply returned us into non-existence by burning us to ashes.

To me this all makes sense since this is no different from what I do with my useless junk.

Your wording is kinda funky. You seem to imply that we existed in nonexistence when you say "we were all in non-existence".

 

[razeontherock]

Why does a lifetime of sinning command an infinite response?

Congratulations! In context, this is a reasonable question. I have seen (only on CF) a person or 2 wrestle with trying to explain this, thinking they knew. I don't think they knew. I do understand what they were saying, but what they said really doesn't add up. None of which affects G-d's mind on the subject, nor does it make Him tell us anything new about it.

FWIW, it is possible to look at the words translated as "Forever," as being "until the end of the age." It is also possible to look at the classic forever passages of Scripture and read them this way, and arrive at an understanding that Judgment Day is a repetitive thing, at the end of every "age." This would make a LOT of questions go away! (The whole "sin in heaven" thing, for example) Please note that my observation here doesn't mean I think things really work this way, I just find it interesting. What I do think, is that whatever the "end of the age" is, it is more than we can fathom, and most of what G-d has already told us about this age is more than we can absorb.

 

[razeontherock]

Your wording is kinda funky. You seem to imply that we existed in nonexistence when you say "we were all in non-existence".

I agree with you. Please understand that when dealing w/ Spiritual things, human language has it's limits. If I read between the lines correctly, he was referring to a state of being created, but not yet made. And yet, the lingo I just used may mean absolutely nothing to Doveman, or worse yet, may mean something entirely different to him, and therefore he'd be tempted to argue about what i just said.

So would D object to his concept presented as "before any of us existed?"

 

[Doveaman]

Your wording is kinda funky. You seem to imply that we existed in nonexistence when you say "we were all in non-existence".

Take razeontherock's advice and read between the lines.

 

[BleedingHeart]

I agree with you. Please understand that when dealing w/ Spiritual things, human language has it's limits. If I read between the lines correctly, he was referring to a state of being created, but not yet made. And yet, the lingo I just used may mean absolutely nothing to Doveman, or worse yet, may mean something entirely different to him, and therefore he'd be tempted to argue about what i just said.

So would D object to his concept presented as "before any of us existed?"

I object on principle.

 

[Ampersand]

Why does an all powerful god even allow sin to occur is his punishment is infinite?

 

[razeontherock]

Why does an all powerful god even allow sin to occur is his punishment is infinite?

Is this actually a question, or are you really pronouncing a judgment?

 

[Ampersand]

It's an honest question. The Greeks had a better idea with the Underworld/Elysium dynamic.

 

[razeontherock]

Why does an all powerful god even allow sin to occur if his punishment is infinite?

Assuming i corrected your question correctly, you are still assuming infinite punishment. G-d didn't say anything about that to Adam, as far as we know. We could strip down your question to merely "why did G-d ever allow sin in the first place," but that would seem to be not what you're asking. (?)

 

[Ampersand]

So you don't believe in the myth of Hell as a place if eternal punishment?

 

[razeontherock]

So you don't believe in the myth of Hell as a place if eternal punishment?

Well that was a quick change of venue, wasn't it? What happened to your previous question? Why is my opinion on the matter here significant? I actually don't have one. I'm not affected, either way. It feels strange writing this, and that was not my stance before joining CF.

 

[Ampersand]

Your reply said:

you are still assuming infinite punishment

So logically my reply was:

So you don't believe in the myth of Hell as a place if eternal punishment?

 

[razeontherock]

Full of assumption. No real logical connection btw the two - other than your assumptions, that is.

 

[Jade Margery]

Y'know Raze, people wouldn't have to assume what you mean if you actually just -said- what you mean. Vagueness is not a successful debate tactic.

 

[Ampersand]

Full of assumption. No real logical connection btw the two - other than your assumptions, that is.

You said you don't believe in infinite punishment, so I asked you if you belive Hell is eternal. How can you not follow the connection between the two?

 

[Rajni]

Why does an all powerful god even allow sin to occur is his punishment is infinite?

Well, not all Christians would agree with the implications of this, but, there's a verse that says He deliberately bound everyone into disobedience for the purpose of having mercy on (that very same) everyone.

An analogy might be the pastor (representing God in this case) who deliberately submerges a baptizee (representing mankind in this case) under the water (sin in this case) for the purpose of bringing him back up out of it again (mercy in this case). Mainstream churchdom's stance on partial salvation would essentially have the pastor holding the person under the water till they drowned, never pulling them back up out of it again (a scenario I disagree with quite strongly).

So, in a way, I see the entire history of man from start to finish as one huge, long (for those of us still in the dimension of time & space) baptism. No one is going to be drowned; God will pull them all back up out of the water into new life (imo).

.

 

[Upisoft]

ONLY God is good and only what God puts in people is good. If there is non of God in you, then there is no good in you. Why would God take people to His Heaven if they do not want to be there? It would no longer be Heaven because there are people who do not want to be there.

Is there something that was not created by God? If "no", then everything in anyone is from God and therefore good. If "yes", then who is the creator?

 

[CaliforniaSun]

Y'know Raze, people wouldn't have to assume what you mean if you actually just -said- what you mean. Vagueness is not a successful debate tactic.

YouTube - Yoda fears the darkside

 

[Doveaman]

Well, not all Christians would agree with the implications of this, but, there's a verse that says He deliberately bound everyone into disobedience for the purpose of having mercy on (that very same) everyone.

An analogy might be the pastor (representing God in this case) who deliberately submerges a baptizee (representing mankind in this case) under the water (sin in this case) for the purpose of bringing him back up out of it again (mercy in this case). Mainstream churchdom's stance on partial salvation would essentially have the pastor holding the person under the water till they drowned, never pulling them back up out of it again (a scenario I disagree with quite strongly).

So, in a way, I see the entire history of man from start to finish as one huge, long (for those of us still in the dimension of time & space) baptism. No one is going to be drowned; God will pull them all back up out of the water into new life (imo).

But a baptism symbolizes a "washing away of" sin. So "one huge, long baptism" of mankind would be a "washing away of" sinful men and women (imo), just as it was in Noah's flood.

"God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also" - 1 Peter 3:20-21.