Bible-Creation-Evolution (3)

[AV1611VET]

But AV, your position doesn't even have proper biblical support.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created ...

That, to me, constitutes 'proper Biblical support'.

It's rejected by most of Christianity, and rightly so.

Praise the LORD!

'Most of Christianity' can take a hike.

As Paul put it:

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Let me ask you an honest question -- (meaning it probably won't get answered):

Does your church have 'the Blood' taken out of its hymnals, and substituted with 'the Cross', instead?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created ...

That, to me, constitutes 'proper Biblical support'.

Equivocation. The word in that context does not necessarily equivalent to the creationist's usage of the word "creation" or "created".

 

[AV1611VET]

Equivocation. The word in that context does not necessarily equivalent to the creationist's usage of the word "creation" or "created".

I'll go ahead and take it at face value then until it gets past peer review.

If scientists aren't concerned enough with investigating it, then why should I?

 

[AV1611VET]

Let me ask you an honest question -- (meaning it probably won't get answered):

Does your church have 'the Blood' taken out of its hymnals, and substituted with 'the Cross', instead?

While you're not answering this one, FG, let me ask you another one:

How many Baptist churches in your area have dropped the name 'Baptist', so as not to ruffle any feathers?

 

[TheReasoner]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created ...

That, to me, constitutes 'proper Biblical support'.

But I'm not contesting that He did. We can create things using evolution. Are you saying we're capable of doing stuff God isn't capable of doing?
I'm saying you have not got ANY support for your claims. Not even biblical support. Not proper theological support. No support at all.

Praise the LORD!

'Most of Christianity' can take a hike.

At this point I'm not at all doubting you'd tell God to take a hike if He Himself came down in the flesh and told you while a choir of angels sang His praise.

As Paul put it:

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

*raises one eyebrow*
Erm. Right. And how is evolution evil AV? You keep repeating you don't believe it, but how is it evil? Show me how it is destructive.

Let me ask you an honest question -- (meaning it probably won't get answered):

Does your church have 'the Blood' taken out of its hymnals, and substituted with 'the Cross', instead?

Erm. I don't see the validity of the question. The answer is no. We sing of both the blood and the cross. Depends on the song. Why?

 

[TheReasoner]

While you're not answering this one, FG, let me ask you another one:

How many Baptist churches in your area have dropped the name 'Baptist', so as not to ruffle any feathers?

hahaha
None
We have religious freedom AV. Want to be a baptist, be so. Why would they do that? It's hardly controversial here. I sincerely doubt they are creationists though. And no, not to avoid "ruffling feathers". It's not very common. Some are. People led astray by American creationists mostly. Lured in by their loud claims.

 

[AV1611VET]

Erm. I don't see the validity of the question.

You don't see the validity of that question?

Okay ... no comment then -- I'm not going to describe a rainbow to a blind man.

 

[TheReasoner]

You don't see the validity of that question?

Okay ... no comment.

*raises one eyebrow* AV, I was referring to your apparently believing everyone who disagrees with you being fooled by the devil. I do not see the validity of your question because I don't see the validity of it's basis.

Understand?


I note you're ignoring my request to show me how evolution is evil.

 

[AV1611VET]

Why would they do that?

I don't believe you're this naieve -- blind, yes; naieve, no.

(Although I can't speak for Norway, I guess.)

Here, let me at least try to explain dispensation theology in terms you can understand -- (I know, I said I wasn't going to describe a rainbow...).

In any event, look at it this way:

God has broken the timeline up into seven periods, called 'dispensations'.

Dispensations are simply units of time; the first dispensation lasted one year, and the last dispensation will go 1000 years.

Each of the seven dispensations is like the Titanic, it starts out on its maiden voyage with orders to get to its destination, and it sinks along the way.

On its first voyage -- (Innocence) -- it hit a tree of forbidden fruit.

On its second voyage -- (Consciousness) -- it hit a planet of hybrid beings.

On its third voyage -- (Human Government) -- it hit a tower.

On it's forth voyage -- (Promise) -- it landed too far south, in Egypt.

On its fifth voyage -- (Law) -- it hit a mountain.

On its current sixth voyage -- (Grace) -- it's crew will mutiny.

On its seventh-and-last voyage -- (Millennial Kingdom) -- it will be attacked by pirates.

Thus, this dispensation is slated to fall away, pulled aside by 'doctrines of devils' (probably the 9 Muses) into mutiny.

 

[TheReasoner]

I don't believe you're this naieve -- blind, yes; naieve, no.

And why do you think you're the seeing one AV? I've asked you time and time again to tell me why you believe exactly what you do. To provide some evidence of why evolution is evil and why your conviction has any merit when it isn't even consistent with the bible. Why do you insist that you're infallible in your reading of the bible when you're contradicting it yourself?

And AV, I'm a reasonably intelligent fellow. Hit me with something more than analogies please.

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

I'll go ahead and take it at face value then until it gets past peer review.

If scientists aren't concerned enough with investigating it, then why should I?

The English word "created" can mean so many things. Does it have to mean "poofed it into existence out of thin air" or "ex nihilo" as you like to put it? The word "created" just means bringing something into existence...it doesn't necessarily say how. If I say "I just created a great study guide for my upcoming exam" does that mean I created it "ex nihilo", or that I meant to imply such? Absolutely not. God could have very well used evolution to "create" humans.

 

[AV1611VET]

I note you're ignoring my request to show me how evolution is evil.

Oh, I'll never be able to do that -- that's Jesus' job; but I can come close.

1. Solomon, the man who had apes imported for study, came to this conclusion:

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Note here how evolution is called an 'invention' -- not a 'discovery', as scientists like to think?

2. In the Bible's most scientific book, Colossians, Paul warns us not to be led astray by the Periodic Table of the Elements:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Note here how evolution is called a 'philosophy and vain deceit'?

3. Again, Paul warns his successor, Timothy, to avoid discussions on evolution at all cost:

1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Note here how evolution is called 'fables and endless genealogies'?

4. In Paul's version of the 95 Theses (probably nailed to the door of the Temple), Paul says:

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

He did not say:

Hebrews 11:3 Through observation we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

5. Paul also warns us that evolution, which calls us 'wise men' can lead to atheism:

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Note that calling oneself a Homo sapiens can backfire on us.

 

[TheReasoner]

Oh, I'll never be able to do that -- that's Jesus' job; but I can come close.

1. Solomon, the man who had apes imported for study, came to this conclusion:

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Note here how evolution is called an 'invention' -- not a 'discovery', as scientists like to think?

2. In the Bible's most scientific book, Colossians, Paul warns us not to be led astray by the Periodic Table of the Elements:

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Note here how evolution is called a 'philosophy and vain deceit'?

3. Again, Paul warns his successor, Timothy, to avoid discussions on evolution at all cost:

1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Note here how evolution is called 'fables and endless genealogies'?

4. In Paul's version of the 95 Theses (probably nailed to the door of the Temple), Paul says:

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

He did not say:

Hebrews 11:3 Through observation we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

5. Paul also warns us that evolution, which calls us 'wise men' can lead to atheism:

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Note that calling oneself a Homo sapiens can backfire on us.

*sigh*
None of this mentions evolution at all, AV.

Why do you think observations contradict God?

 

[AV1611VET]

And why do you think you're the seeing one AV?

I don't see -- I walk by faith.

And as far as why I believe like I do, you [should] know perfectly why I do.

I have a set of standards that even you don't use.

 

[TheReasoner]

I don't see -- I walk by faith.

And as far as why I believe like I do, you [should] know perfectly why I do.

Aye. I suspect you were told by someone who didn't know much about it but spoke with authority, and then you never bothered to check. You just stuck to it because anything else would be 'abandoning faith'. A sad mistake.

I have a set of standards that even you don't use.

What are those standards AV?

 

[AV1611VET]

You answered this in 3 minutes, and you expect me to take you seriously?

*sigh*
None of this mentions evolution at all, AV.

Why would it? if it did, you guys would claim it was retconned in there as an anachronism.

It is prescient evolution.

Why do you think observations contradict God?

Oh, my -- do I really have to answer that?

 

[AV1611VET]

What are those standards AV?

752

 

[TheReasoner]

You answered this in 3 minutes, and you expect me to take you seriously?

I've thought about this for years. Could I be wrong, yes. But what you just did, pulling verses out of a proverbial hat and sticking the label 'evolution' on them is nothing new. I can do that too, the other way around.

Why would it? if it did, you guys would claim it was retconned in there as an anachronism.

It is prescient evolution.

Well... I don't think so. To be honest given Jesus' teachings and the general feel of the bible I think it deals a lot more with ethical concepts and such. For example neglect of the poor. Gluttony. Greed. Self-centeredness. Those things. You know, what people were punished for in the bible. Not once does the bible speak of people being punished for seeking to know about God or His creation. It sure speaks a lot about pride, selfishness, gluttony, and greed and the like being sources of punishment. Severe punishment.

Oh, my -- do I really have to answer that?

Well AV, they DO contradict your version of God. So I wonder, why did God create something which says He didn't do it the way He did?

Is God lying to us AV?

 

[TheReasoner]

752

Ah.

AV, that presupposes you have understood the bible. And read it without flaw. You don't. You're yet to answer how you can believe what you do when the creation parables in the bible contradict one another.

Sooo.... I'd say your standards are more along the lines of whatever you WANT the bible to say, you support. Now don't get me wrong here, I have no doubt your intentions are noble. ANd I respect you in a strange way for having noble intentions. But your position doesn't even have biblical consistency. And it doesn't jive with creation either. And what is creation other than God's creating words solidified? If that lies to us then God is a liar. He isn't. Hence you must be wrong if God is to be real.

 

[TheReasoner]

752

In fact AV, I know another user on these forums who stick to much the same principles and say these principles tell her that I should be executed. She also says those principles tell her to carpet-nuke countries if they oppose the progression of her belief.
She also says the same principles tell her that she should have all people who have been drunk, who have had sex outside marriage, who accept evolution, who do not believe, who do not manage to support their families and who as children are unruly should be executed.

Is she right?

I'll go out on a limb and suppose you think this is absolutely vile, pure evil. Right?
Yet she is convinced she's supporting God's will. You and I agree she's not I suppose. But my problem here is, she reads that out of the bible. You read that evolution is evil. I read the bible and say "Okay. This is what I think it says. Is it consistent with the rest of the bible? Is it consistent with Jesus' life and teachings? Is it consistent with God's creation?" If the answer is "no" to any of the aforementioned I re-evaluate my interpretation, and look at my understanding of the whole as well. To find out where I might have misunderstood something.

Why? I know I'm human. I know I'm bound to be wrong, so I try to minimize that.