Bible-Creation-Evolution (3)

[rjc34]

These guys, at one time, were where you are now -- i.e. Church-going believers who read their Bibles.

Well I was a church-going kid, but I didn't really read and study my bible until my crisis of faith.

But at some point in their life, their allegiance to science led them to having questions that their undershepherds couldn't answer, and the cognitive dissonance was so great, they are now no longer believers -- (guys, please correct me, if I'm wrong).

This isn't accurate at all. I don't have any 'allegiance' to science, I have an allegiance to truth and reality. I care about what I believe, and want to believe as many true things as possible.

After a year or so in a deep crisis of faith, where I studied the bible and prayed for an hour every night, I realized I wasn't getting any answer, no nothing. So, under the final nail of the problem of evil and suffering (which I believe to be an irreconcilable problem with Christianity) I became an 'agnostic' (which is what I labelled myself at the time).

Over the years I've purified and distilled my position, as I learn and study more and more, and now I've got it pretty much down. I'm an ignostic agnostic atheist. And a secular humanist. (And proud of it!)[/QUOTE]

 

[sandwiches]

May I ask what specifically you're referring to?

Regarding my Christian faith, the answers and claims contradicted reality or even other claims from the Bible itself. For instance, I was told to believe that there is such a thing as an absolute or objective morality but that it's up to God's whim and he's excluded from this morality. Answers of that nature started making me doubt, but what sealed the deal for me was when I asked for evidence of any of the assertions regarding knowledge of God and the supernatural, I would get vague verses, philosophy, semantics, interpretations, et cetera but never actual demonstrable evidence.

In other words, I started feeling that the words of those who claimed to hold so much theological knowledge were hollow and with nothing under them to support them but more baseless assertions. I see nothing but bare claims on top of bare claims on top of bare claims on top of more bare claims. Turtles all the way down...

 

[selfinflikted]

Regarding my Christian faith, the answers and claims contradicted reality or even other claims from the Bible itself. For instance, I was told to believe that there is such a thing as an absolute or objective morality but that it's up to God's whim and he's excluded from this morality. Answers of that nature started making me doubt, but what sealed the deal for me was when I asked for evidence of any of the assertions regarding knowledge of God and the supernatural, I would get vague verses, philosophy, semantics, interpretations, et cetera but never actual demonstrable evidence.

In other words, I started feeling that the words of those who claimed to hold so much theological knowledge were hollow and with nothing under them to support them but more baseless assertions. I see nothing but bare claims on top of bare claims on top of bare claims on top of more bare claims. Turtles all the way down...

Yep. And I've often wondered also: Miracles, the Hand of God, and the like were frequently seen in biblical times, so what happened? How come god never visibly intervenes now like he allegedly did in the past? You know, something we can see...

 

[sandwiches]

Yep. And I've often wondered also: Miracles, the Hand of God, and the like were frequently seen in biblical times, so what happened? How come god never visibly intervenes now like he allegedly did in the past? You know, something we can see...

Well, people, like Lucaspa and others, allude to experiences which cannot be shared with others which to them serve as evidence of God. Well, I've felt awe, inspiration, wonder, excitement, love, happiness, ecstasy, etc and from all the stories I've ever heard from theists, not a single has included something that I couldn't experience without a deity and I've even had most of those feelings. They might claim that, unlike me, they're able to recognize them as God. Then I have to ask how do they verify this or falsify this?

I usually get answers such as "How do you know you're really in love?" "How do you know that your car is real?" Et cetera, but of course, unlike them I don't assume that my feelings alone are evidence of anything outside of my brain. And my car can be seen, heard by, and touched by others.

 

[selfinflikted]

Well, people, like Lucaspa and others, allude to experiences which cannot be shared with others which to them serve as evidence of God. Well, I've felt awe, inspiration, wonder, excitement, love, happiness, ecstasy, etc and from all the stories I've ever heard from theists, not a single has included something that I couldn't experience without a deity and I've even had most of those feelings. They might claim that, unlike me, they're able to recognize them as God. Then I have to ask how do they verify this or falsify this?

I usually get answers such as "How do you know you're really in love?" "How do you know that your car is real?" Et cetera, but of course, unlike them I don't assume that my feelings alone are evidence of anything outside of my brain. And my car can be seen, heard by, and touched by others.

Yea, I know, and I wonder the same. But I'm talking stuff on a grander scale that could ONLY be attributed to god - like the parting of the sea, or the burning bush - you know, something completely objective that can be verified and seen by others. I've always wondered why this stuff doesn't happen nowadays (if it ever really happened before).

 

[rjc34]

Well, people, like Lucaspa and others, allude to experiences which cannot be shared with others which to them serve as evidence of God. Well, I've felt awe, inspiration, wonder, excitement, love, happiness, ecstasy, etc and from all the stories I've ever heard from theists, not a single has included something that I couldn't experience without a deity and I've even had most of those feelings. They might claim that, unlike me, they're able to recognize them as God. Then I have to ask how do they verify this or falsify this?

I usually get answers such as "How do you know you're really in love?" "How do you know that your car is real?" Et cetera, but of course, unlike them I don't assume that my feelings alone are evidence of anything outside of my brain. And my car can be seen, heard by, and touched by others.

Relevant:
YouTube - YOU'RE A SOLIPSIST!!!!

 

[sandwiches]

Yea, I know, and I wonder the same. But I'm talking stuff on a grander scale that could ONLY be attributed to god - like the parting of the sea, or the burning bush - you know, something completely objective that can be verified and seen by others. I've always wondered why this stuff doesn't happen nowadays (if it ever really happened before).

Some theologians, and internet theologians like AV, attribute this to what they call dispensationalism. This is the way they rationalize why God seems to act so differently at different times in the Bible. The reality is that this is completely arbitrary exegesis of the Bible that actually has many problems even among most Christian theologians. This is an excellent, in-depth article regarding dispensationalism.

Some knowledge on this topic is one of the things I have this forum to thank for, and in this case, AV, specifically.

 

[sandwiches]

Relevant:
YouTube - YOU'RE A SOLIPSIST!!!!

That was hilarious! I agree, that there's no point in arguing with a solipsist. Whatever you say or do is evidence that they're correct. Wait a second, did I just describe a fundamentalist?

 

[Tiberius]

Posting to subscribe.

Anyone remember the days when this thread was about seeing if there was anything in the Bible that could support evolution?

 

[AV1611VET]

Posting to subscribe.

Anyone remember the days when this thread was about seeing if there was anything in the Bible that could support evolution?

Ya -- that was 1032 posts ago.

That train never left the station.

 

[rjc34]

Ya -- that was 1032 posts ago.

That train never left the station.

Well it did, it just got derailed a few feet later... by you wasn't it?

 

[Lion Hearted Man]

Relevant:
YouTube - YOU'RE A SOLIPSIST!!!!

Their amazement was so amazingly synchronized...haha

 

[rjc34]

Their amazement was so amazingly synchronized...haha

Matt Dillahunty is my messiah.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well it did, it just got derailed a few feet later... by you wasn't it?

Oh, I'm sure -- I'm notorious for that.

 

[Tiberius]

Your usual tactic when you have nothing of value to add to the discussion?

 

[AV1611VET]

Your usual tactic when you have nothing of value to add to the discussion?

You mean that I haven't added already?

 

[Tiberius]

Hang on...

You think that with your complete LACK of knowledge about science and how it works, as well as your steadfast refusal to listen to any evidence that disagrees however slightly with your preconceived conclusions about the Bible, you can add something of merit to this discussion?

Have a look at this, AV...

 

[rjc34]

You mean that I haven't added already?

Have you ever added?

 

[pgp_protector]

Have you ever added?

Numbers

 

[rjc34]

Have a look at this, AV...

I posted this in another thread called 'debate is dead' and somebody argued that it was just 'arbitrary rules' I was trying to impose...