Bible-Creation-Evolution (3)

[sandwiches]

We have evidence the fat lady has not sung yet! (He posted recently) Yet you do point out that free will (as the term is used within Christianity) is indeed a potent force.

More potent than God's will?

 

[razeontherock]

Yes, more potent than G-d's will. As long as we are on earth, and alive. This is the significance of those little words, "and God gave man dominion."

Dennis Rodman got it better than most Christians. (He wrote the book "As bad as I wanna be")

Another illustration is something I find fascinating:

Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

The other side of that coin is prayer, whereby we seek to align our God-given dominion with His will. Again, even most Christians seem to fail to grasp this aspect.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Your over-reaction here is predictable, but you might settle down and observe the point I made?

Oh sorry, I forgot my "place". I'm always making mistakes here, aren't I?

No, that is NOT the nature of Faith.

You read my explanation.

And much like Romans 8:1, what the heck does that even mean? Ever try it on the highway?

Am I being quizzed here? OK: it means I should have felt no guilt as long as I was trying to live in pursuit of spirit and faith in Jesus Christ etc etc. That my feelings of guilt were holding me back when I needed merely to "trust in the lord". (Editted to add: I'm sure I've made a mistake here. More evidence of my flaws no doubt).

That's all fine and dandy but it didn't work for me. AND the most important part is that that wasn't the thing that finally drove me from "faith"...the thing that drove me from 'faith' was when I questioned it and found it lacking for me.

I could have read Romans 8:1 in every known translation and it would not change one whit the later "spiritual path" I ended up taking. My failure to "internalize" the teachings of Rom 8:1 did not change what I later found to be the essence of religious thought and faith in general, Christianity specifically.

I am glad I made the journey. And if I had simply stopped at Romans 8:1 as an amelioration of my feelings (which I will also remind you had nothing to do with particularly "rational" thought) I would have missed out on the spiritual path I am now on. And I would have missed a part of me.

If there is a God he made me defective and if he is Omniscient I should think he would have seen this coming a mile away.

Religion makes me sick, quite literally. G-d set me free from that, which doesn't mean religion doesn't continually tempt with all it's vices.

I grow exceedingly bored with this particular word game. I've heard it a million times. I get the jist of it. You don't consider yourself "religious" because religion is dogmatic or whatever and it removes you from the spirit and true relationship with God.

I'm using "religious" as most people have used the terms since time immemorial to be generally about faith, spirituality etc. I am not parsing the words according to whatever the most recent fad is in within the Evangelical community.

I understand your point. Sorry if I used a term that was not in keeping with your sect's particular current "interpretation" of the term.

I have done no such thing,

You can say that all you like, but the majority of your posts have included constant reference to the flaws in my thinking. Look back over them.

And here you demonstrate another BASIC flaw in thinking;

... you demonstrate the result of false teaching.

re: visions of God? (Or anything else?) Irrelevant.

Romans 8:1 is still the missing link, and what is required is not a minimum # of translations read, but understanding. Understanding which would've removed your last question here before it was asked.

You are broadcasting loud and clear, this has been your missing link.

So you see, I've been in error and missing points all along! I couldn't possibly be functioning well if I'm so inept. You may not have intended your points to be like that, but that's what you said.

but I'm glad you can open up about your distaste. Where have I even hinted that you're not functional?

vide supra. When you suggest my flaws in thinking and false teaching, that is a clear indication.

Ok, prove me wrong I don't need to get defensive about it

The Great Commission is not about force.

Again, why did you even ask me about Romans 8:1? Unless you felt it was a route by which you could show me how I started down the path of error? Why point out to me how my thinking showed the marks of "false teaching"? Unless it was to suggest I have erred.

I realize you are not forcing your religion on me, but again, I'm not asking you why on earth you believe in an invisible creature who decided that the only way for their creation to atone to him is by demanding he himself be sacrificed to himself?

Shall I take the time to pick apart your thinking flaws?

No, I don't wish to. I see nothing wrong with you having your beliefs. But you have taken the time to run a forensic analysis on how I wound up following down an incorrect path. Demonstrably I think I could find more "holes" in your reasoning and reason for faith than you can find in my lack thereof.

I just don't want to do that. I see no reason to denigrate someone else's faith unless they wish to disrespect my "spiritual path".

My path is clearly flawed in your mind and you are doing your best forensics to show me where my flaws started and how they propogated.

I do not wish to return the favor for you. But hopefully you can see that I am probably as touchy about my "spiritual path" as you would be were I to take the same tack against you as you have against me.

No matter how kind-hearted it sounds coming from you!

It's hard to go wrong with the words of Jesus, isn't it?

Or Buddha or whomever originally proposed the golden Rule. I rather think it "common sense" and since I have no real evidence that Jesus even existed, let alone said those words I'm willing to live by the concept which can exist completely free of divine inspiration.

(BTW: I love it when common sense concepts get coopted by "religions" as if only the divine [fill-in-the-blank-as-to-which-god] could possibly have posited that point! Selah!)

If someone saw me clearly not understanding a basic tenant, I would hope they would point that out to me as best they could. As a fellow believer, they actually owe me that. This is what I've done here, with you.

Ah, but I clearly stated I am not a fellow believer. I am a non-believer and have no need of your "advice" on my flaws.

What if I were to propose that perhaps you are "overly credulous" and given to belief in fantasies without evidence? I can show you problems with the Bible which you've no doubt heard a million times and which you have "canned" answers to. Would you appreciate that? Shall I enumerate the flaws in your faith?

Would I not be doing you a "favor" to remove the veil from your eyes to show you the world as it is?

No, I would not. Your faith is your faith. It obviously pleases you and brings you great comfort. I have no wish whatsoever to attempt to show you some "flaw" in your thinking because that would risk taking you off the path you find comfort in.

I could be wrong as the day is long and there is a God! And I am going straight to hell for my lack of belief. I would never want to drag you along with me.

But I hope you will realize that your words are an attempt by you to drag me back into something that brought me no happiness. Would you be happy to drag me back into a life of more pain and anguish? Regardless of whatever bible verses you throw at me to ameliorate your ideals, it is not my path.

Again you immediately go to guilt, then to hell as a threat. Nothing of the sort is contained in my words, concepts, or thoughts.

My bad, but when someone makes a veiled reference to "CONSEQUENCES" I tend to assume they are referring to hell.

In fact it pertains to this life, in the here and now. How this might apply to your situation I can only guess:

you throw out the baby (a real relationship with the Almighty) with the bathwater, (religion) and leave that void empty. It is replaced with mistrust and suspicion rather than love or willingness to listen, and the last state is worse than the first.

Now you are "projecting". You think that there is some "void" and it must be filled with something so you assume it only negative.

Could it be that the void is now filled with more wonder and appreciation of this life? That I feel more understanding that sometimes things simply happen? Could it be a modicum of comfort that there is no greater "meaning" I have to strive toward? That I can take pleasure in my life and friends etc?

No, you automatically assume "mistrust" and "suspicion" are that which fill in this imaginary void.

I think I learn more about you in that single conjecture than I had before.

I shouldn't be surprised that G-d's Love as expressed via me gets rejected, but I am held accountable if I stifle it.

No, I am rejecting your words. I don't believe in God, ergo God's love is nowhere apparent, and having someone try to explain the "flaws in my thinking" and forensically dissect my hard-earned spiritual path because I show signs of following "false teachings" is not what I desire, want or need.

It is you who needs to push it. It is your desire to save another heathen. It makes you feel good to think you are doing good as you see it. Honestly believe me, I understand where you are coming from.

You are free to ask whatever you want and point out my flaws as you wish, but I think I will heed the words of your lord and savior and not return the favor as I see no value in that.

 

[thaumaturgy]

You continue to use the word: "religion". What you needed was a Relationship with your Creator and Healing.

Popular Evangelical Word game. Sorry, I keep using the term in it's normal parlance to mean all things related to spirituality and faith. Not just the narrow sub-definition that Evangelicals want to saddle it with.

Again, my apologies.

All of Creation is broken

Yes, yes, yes. And it's all horrible and awful. Got it. But remember God gave you this place to live and this life to live. Is it the best thing to look him in the face and say "Thanks for this horrible place and I'm really looking forward to you giving me something better later on!"

Mat 23 27 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you are like to white washed sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Yeah, got it. Understood. I'm using religion in a more general term. If I were to say "dogmatic orthodoxy" perhaps you'd have a complaint.

 

[razeontherock]

But I hope you will realize that your words are an attempt by you to drag me back into something that brought me no happiness.

Actually no, I would have no part of that. And I also rejected what you got away from. My words are pointing out the difference between what you rightfully decided against, (what the Bible refers to as "the ministry of condemnation") and Life in Christ.

Thank you for taking the time to communicate.