Jesus in conversion stories

[Goodbook]

As a born-again Christian, I like to read conversion stories.

But I've noticed there are different types of conversions. And it seems there can be fake conversions as well. These types of Christians cannot be said to be born again in the biblical sense, although they may FEEL born again because they start going to church, but they just got into religion. They then fall away when something comes up that they don't understand.

An example of this I was reading this book called 'Losing my religion' by William Lopdell. It was about a man who got into Christianity. But he never got into Jesus Christ. He went from church to church -an evangelical mega church, then presbyterian, then started to join a Catholic Church, before his investigations as a journalist exposed the child abusing priests that went on with it. That led to him rejecting God, and religion. From his writing, its clear he didnt have any faith to begin with, he went to church to get stuff out of it, to improve his earthly life, rather than going to Jesus himself. He turns to agnosticism/atheism. He seemed in awe of those who professed Jesus Christ and witnessed, which is something he couldn't bring himself to do.

Another is reading Phillip Yancey. He is a popular Christian writer. He's written dozens of books all about Christianity as a culture. He quotes from the Bible, yes, but I find reading his books something strangely missing. And that is, he doubts. If one has faith, which is a gift from God, for the one who truly seeks him, one cannot doubt.
In searching for, I suppose religion as a belief system, he looks at christian writers he admires and reads all their works, imitates them, instead of reading the Bible and going to Jesus himself. In his book Prayer, does it really work? I found myself going.. why am I reading this? Of course prayer works! He likes to think of himself as another C.S. Lewis, that he's evangelical, but I can't say for sure he is born-again. If he was truly born-again he would give up writing books about Christianity for profit and go about proclaiming the gospel. There is a lot in his Prayer book that is simply unbiblical. It seems you can be evangelical but not born again.

I used to like reading Anne Rice, and she exposed me to the world of catholic beliefs in her vampire novels. I was very interested in how her catholicsm informed her imagination, she even writes fiction in which Jesus is a character. Then I read her conversion story to the catholic faith. 'Called out of Darkness'. This was very interesting, as it happened after he husbands death and I think she went back to catholicsm for the comfort of it. I was surprised to read that in her childhood she never read the Bible. All she knew was visual. And later on, in writing her fictional stories about Jesus, she draws on gnostic gospels and invents a kind of catholic version of Jesus. Later when she came back to her faith, she still believes that Jesus is waiting for her in the altar of the catholic church (in the blessed sacrament). This is not being born again! She doesn't worship God in spirit and in truth. Later still, she renounces her conversion, and blasts christians.
This is very sad.

Another is called 'surprised by Christ' a journey from Judaism to orthodox christianity, by James A Bernstein. This was interesting because I didn't know much about Orthodoxy, although its said they are the one true church because of their history and traditions. This Jewish man found Jesus when he read a Jehovah's Witness new testament. He then accepted in his that Jesus really was the Messiah, and came to Protestantism. But he missed his Judaism - the worship traditions. So he did some research and came to the Eastern Orthodox church. All well and good, I think. He makes a good argument for it. But, I wondered, how come he totally omitted mention of icons in the church? I think he liked religion more than Jesus for his salvation. He did notice those in his church unfriendly to him. He rose to prominence in this church. But Jesus doesn't care how high up you are in any church. He just wants you. So I'm not sure about this one.
He became a church 'father' when the bible forbids anyone calling themselves on earth Father. we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, none of us can call ourselves 'Father'. And I do read about Orthodox prayer, the Jesus prayer, that people are being taught to say this over and over again which goes against what Jesus taught - not to pray using vain repetitions.

I notice in these particular 'conversions' stories, no glory is bought Jesus Christ for saving them from sin, but rather, the type of church whether it is evangelical, catholic or orthodox. I read about Christians who join a church and become self-righteous but do not know Jesus. And I read about Christians particularly pastors, who embrace false teaching and become puffed up.

I've read conversion stories where that person is truly born again, and they are powerful testimonies these include 'Heavenly Man', 'True Red' and many on the internet.

I think we need to make a distinction between conversion and being born again. When I read the King James Bible (i trust it more than the others) in the book of Acts, I read how people got converted. They got baptised with water and spirit. They all received the Holy Spirit. However it says when they heard the gospel, some bibles translates this as 'converted.' But KJV says it more explicitly. It says they were 'pricked to the heart'. Acts 2:37 I believe every born again person has this experience. And I notice their language is different, we born-agains talk about Jesus, but other people seem to just mention 'Christ.' As if Jesus name was actually Christ. No, Christ was his title, but we know him as Jesus. That's why we say Jesus Saves, but we don't say Christ saves.

Your thoughts please.

 

[LWB]

Hi Goodbook, I read with interest your post, and am persuaded by your opinion. I recognise true converts by their reaction to Jesus. If he is their Lord and God and central to all they think, live, and breath, I know something wonderful has happened to their life. Very soon small talk turns to some of the weightiest discussions involving the Lord, and it is like we have to shake ourselves back to the mundane reality we're dealing with when it comes time to part. Yet other Christians I come across: the Lord seems far from their minds. I wonder if they've even met him.

 

[Goodbook]

Hi LWB,
That is true! I was thinking a bit more on this topic.

The book I was reading 'Surprised by Christ' I noticed something odd. The author spoke of how the Orthodox teach that all the sacrament rituals are designed so that members become like God. He tried to explain this away by quoting some scriptures out of context and how it was biblical, but I KNOW it isn't! I suppose if you intellectually believe in a Jesus presented by the Jehovah's Witnesses new testament that's not believing the real Jesus with your heart. What I did notice, he did ask if Jesus was true and had the spiritual experience that yes, Jesus was..but he didn't repent, or believe in his heart..and I notice he didn't talk about how Jesus changed his life, just that his religious beliefs changed.

Another book I read about Chrisitianty was called 'Patience with God' by Franky Schaeffer. Here is a kid brought up by missionary parents, so living and breathing Christianity, but he himself does not acccept Jesus. He can see all sorts of things in his mind wrong with evangelical christianity but that's because he just wants to be friends with everyone. He would prefer that the churches keep their nude art. So he goes into the easter Orthodox church instead, says God can't be known, and prefers that God remain a mystery. He doesn't seem to be aware of the reality of sin and that Jesus saves, not religion. He can't seem to humble himself to the Lord and let him take control of his life. Now his mother seems to have read him the Bible and he claims to know all about Israel history but I see scant evidence of him reading the Bible for himself and trusting in God's word. So although he converted, he isn't born again! He even admits he's just looking for the new religious thing that will save him. Newsflash - religion won't save anyone. Only Jesus saves! So its defintely true that you can be raised with Christianity all around you and people being changed by Jesus but if you prefer to be deaf and ignore God then you can join a religion and call yourself a Christian without ever coming to Jesus.

When someone told me about her faith in Jesus at first I was a little sceptical. I thought at first she was pushing religion. But then I noticed how genuine she was and she could answer lots of my questions, not only using scripture..it wasn't just her words, it was through the Holy Spirit. I was doubting first. I wasn't getting it. I had mixed up in my mind Christianity..or Jesus. She was talking about Jesus. So I prayed 'Lord help me understand the Bible'. And then I could see what she was saying. The Holy Spirit showed me a verse in the bible where I was going wrong. I thought I was Christian but in another sense I wasn't because I was confused by religion and other christians who say they are but they aren't. How could I call myself one? So I read the whole Bible. And then I realised what had happened and I was truly born again. The baptism, of water and spirit had changed me and was changing me. God isn't the Author of confusion and I learned this by trusting his Word - I was only confused by things outside the Bible that conflicted with it. God gave me faith, a little faith at first, but it is growing bigger all the time.

Another person I spoke to in church told me all about what Jesus had done in his life. I'm glad to find other Christians and the ones who are truly converted always offer to pray for you. I think maybe thats the difference - if they are christian who don't believe, they won't pray. Or they will only pray for their friends. A true Christian will pray for their neighbour who is in need. And I think as christians we just know, when we meet each other, that we are family. It doesn't matter what kind of church we belong to. We are one in Christ.

My friend said, before you read any books about christianity, read the Bible. Good advice. So many people don't. We are to be like Bereans - searching the scriptures daily. Reading the Gods Word helps me grow so much. Let God's word be true and every man a liar.

 

[Crosssword]

Agreed, one should go directly to the Bible. Mathew 5:20 comes to mind, "for unless your righteousness is greater then scribes and pharisees ye cannot enter the kingdom of heaven."

To me "Born Again" is where you realize you are a terrible sinner destined to hell, accept Christ's forgiveness - the blood which pays the price for you - then the old man is crucified and the new man lives for God and for others.

Many who learn about God as children are taught various religious traditions, in my case the occult, but regardless they don't see themselves as sinful and assume they are already as christian as they need to be.

 

[Peripatetic]

Hearing stories of conversion can be uplifting and inspiring to be sure! However, we need to be careful not to try to guess or infer whether someone is "truly saved" or not. It is impossible to know. And trying to determine when or if a person is saved can be a trap that brings about doubt and suspicion.

Consider the thief/insurrectionist on the cross next to Jesus. He was saved before he was even born. He was saved all throughout his sinful life of crime. How do we know that? Because his name was written in the book of Heaven before the Earth was created. Could anybody know that he was saved if they tried to judge his works during his life? Absolutely not.

Conversely, there are people who joyfully embrace Jesus and become on fire Christians for a time - maybe for years, then fall away and die as non-believers. Chances are, if you knew such a person in his church-going years, you'd assume that he was saved. But he was never saved from the day he was born to the day he died. To use the analogy from the parable of the sower, he was "the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time."

So, while it is fine to pray for others and hope for their salvation, it is completely futile to try to figure it out. As for ourselves: nobody knows for sure whether we are predestined with irresistible grace or whether we must choose to accept God's grace and hang on to it. The Bible tells us to "cling" and "hold fast" to God. So even if our salvation requires no action from us at all, there is no harm in acting as if it does by staying loyal to Him. If we trust in God's plan for us, we can have inner peace about our own salvation without having to worry about all the details of when or how it "happened" for ourselves or anyone else.

 

[Goodbook]

hmm I don't know about this. I think it is possible to know.
Jesus tells us to 'beware false prophets, who come to you as sheep but inwardly they are ravening wolves, ye shall know them by their fruits.'

It's not like I go about my life meeting people and judging them wondering are they saved or not? But reading books written BY professed Christians..some of them don't seem 'christian' I don't know how I can explain this.. but in light of the bible, it's like something is not right. Eg books by Robert Schuller or Norman Vincent Peale. George W Bush, who said he was a born-again Christian, but I don't think he was, at least, not judging by his fruits after he said he became one.

I think God created us, and certainly hopes all of use come to know him and love him, he did predestine some of us in the Bible (the chosen ones, the Jews, and called upon others specifically, like the prophets) but now that Jesus has come all of can choose him or not. He sent Jesus for the World, not wanting any of us to perish because he loves us. So we do His work by literally and figuratively spreading the Word to others.

As for eternal security when you are truly born again that's something you cannot lose, because Jesus said he is the Good Shepherd, those that know him know his voice, if any of his sheep go astray he will go after him and bring it back into the fold, he will lay down his life for us and protect us from wolves. That is why we follow him only.

Yes there are those that hear the Word but they don't understand it fully. Those of us who do, believe it and do his commandments. We understand we are new creatures in Christ..so the old ways no longer attract us. To even think about disobeying God would be terrible. Jesus is the only way. He even said no man can serve two masters, he will come to love one and hate the other. I see a lot of 'christians' trying to have the best of both worlds. You can't. That is the devils' temptation. That is why we put on the armour of God. The armour of God includes the helmet of salvation. So we definitely know every day we are saved and don't ever forget it.

 

[Peripatetic]

Three things at play here:

1. Knowing bad fruit when you see it from a person.
2. Knowing false teaching when you hear it.
3. Knowing whether the false teacher or person with bad fruit will be saved.

#1 is the most straightforward, though not always accurate. Generally, though, we can see carnal aspects in others. The Bible teaches us to love them, but to be careful that we don't too caught up in their worldly ways.

#2 is easy in some cases, but difficult or impossible in others. It's easy to root out false teachings that go against the basic building blocks of Christianity (ie. Universalism, doubting the deity of Jesus, etc.). A little less obvious are teachings like prosperity gospel or works-based salvation which appear to go against the Bible, but some Christian groups still hold to be true. I personally believe that there is enough Biblical evidence to call those false teachings. However, there are a large number of other biblical interpretations that cannot be proven to be false or true. They are the arguments that have been debated by good Christians for thousands of years: predestination, baptism, end times, real presence in the Eucharist, once saved/always saved, etc.

#3 is impossible. No matter how bad the fruit or teachings, that person could still be saved. Saul of Tarsis was a really bad guy. Bad fruit, bad teachings, dangerous to all Christians. Nobody could have looked at him then and known that he would be chosen by God to write a good bit of the New Testament from which our truth originates.

Bottom line: we should avoid bad fruit where possible (unless we can be loving and helpful to the producers of that fruit). We should also avoid false teachings that go against the foundations of belief as described in the Nicene Creed. However, we should allow for the fact that many teachings are debatable. Bitterness and arguments over these have fragmented the church and lead many away in confusion - exactly as the devil would want. Instead, we should admit that we are not all-knowing, and sometimes the Holy Spirit allows us to draw our own conclusions about matters that are too complex or divine for us to understand. We all need to admit that we may not always be right.

 

[vespasia]

It is not what people say- it is how they live their lives and treat others that 'tells' you.

 

[1watchman]

Jesus said: "Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom (Matt. 7:21). We need to discern this, lest many false preachers are brought into the true church.

- 1 Watchman

 

[Goodbook]

I would call the Alpha Course false teaching!

It seemed like it was a way for people to join a charismatic church and 'get the holy spirit' or follow Nickey Gumbel rather than to save people from sin by believing in Jesus.

Gumbels conversion story was suspect. 'I just have a better relationship with God' . hmm which 'God' would that be? The God of the Bible, or someone/thing else? I read all through his 'questions' book and he kept going on about 'words of knowledge' and all these gifts that you got from this holy spirit but practically nothing about Jesus. When you go on an Alpha course, which I did attend a few times, nobody prays before hand or gives you a bible. Nobody talks about the Truth. They quote a bit from the bible but it's a very slick presentation. You just have to believe Jesus existed, then go to church, and get all these freaky gifts like visions and dreams and tongues. But that's not the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus came to save us from our sins.

Another suspect conversion would be Constantine, who was supposedly converted to Christianity when seeing a fiery cross with the words 'in this sign, conquer', thus starting the Church as a state insitution. Was he saved and born again? Hardly if we judge by his evil fruits.

Note 'converted to Christianity' by doing a course (like learning the Catholic chatechism) rather than being saved by Jesus.

 

[Peripatetic]

Another suspect conversion would be Constantine, who was supposedly converted to Christianity when seeing a fiery cross with the words 'in this sign, conquer', thus starting the Church as a state insitution. Was he saved and born again? Hardly if we judge by his evil fruits.

Note 'converted to Christianity' by doing a course (like learning the Catholic chatechism) rather than being saved by Jesus.

Jesus is sovereign and all powerful. Nothing is impossible with Him, so His means of saving people need not be narrow. "Saved and born again" may not take the same form. There are remote tribes that never get a Bible or have the opportunity to go to a true church. But scripture tells us that the very heavens and Earth reveals God's presence to them. Who knows how the Holy Spirit works within them?

I'm not familiar with the Alpha course that you mentioned, so I can't say whether it is misguided or deceptive. I will say this: some people do respond more to academic teachings. Many people have come to love Jesus by being "taught" throughout their formative (or adult) years and grow a personal relationship over time.

The Lord works in mysterious ways. Just as different denominations match our personality types, there are also different ways that people find Jesus.

 

[Goodbook]

I read that Constantine only professed Jesus on his deathbed and then got baptised. So perhaps he was saved at the very end of his life. Lord have mercy on him! But he definitely wasn't a born again believer upon his 'conversion'.

As for the means of saving people - Jesus did say strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few are there that find it.

Even when Jesus appeared IN PERSON to people, not many believed he was the Messiah, or the Son of God, so its likely that even when he appears again at the end of the age most people won't believe. Jesus says it's up to us to spread the Word so that those people ignorant of Jesus will know his name, and by calling on his name we can be saved from our sins.

I think those tribes of course they could be religious and worship God (or Gods) but they can't be saved if they don't know Jesus. The Holy Spirit doesn't come upon people who don't know Jesus or reject Jesus. Only those who know Jesus can be saved for there is no other name..Jesus says he is the way, the truth and the life, NO one goes to the Father but by me. So since Jesus isn't appearing on earth until the end, its up to us to spread his Word. We have more means and resources of doing this now than ever before - bible translations, air travel, global communications, to reach everyone.

Personally, I believe God reveals himself to us through his Word, or a vision, prayer, or through miracles. I don't put as much value in academic or church teachings as they are doctrines of men and tend to mix up his Word, leave bits out, or add things in. I think they can be a distraction and a deception, and take you much longer to ever get to the truth, especially if you are hungry for God. Why not get his unvarnished Word rather then have it muddled and mixed up with people's commentaries and teachings that may actually be confusing you? At least, that's my humble opinion. I remember talking to my Catholic friend, asking about what she believed..and she admits she is confused by the church teachings. There are lots of teachings and doctrines and dogmas that seem to just plain confuse people. It's because they don't rely on the Word.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I had this book, called 'lies young women believe' by Nancy de Moss. Back in my unbelief I didn't know just how important the Bible was in determining what was true and what was lies. I'm really glad I read that book, it got me into reading the Bible again. It really suprised me that many 'Christians' just didn't read the Bible. I had this idea that they read it all the time. Then I learned many people just go to church and figure that whatever their preacher tells them is the truth. Not always!!

Perhaps I should use the word 'churchgoers' instead of 'christians'. Anyway.. I guess what I'm saying is when you are born again, you just get such a peace of mind that God gives you...and it makes you more aware of how you confused and deceived and sinful you used to be, and how awful it was to be lost..that it hurts to read and hear about christians who still have doubts and confusions about God. I don't understand everything about God (of course, I don't need to) but what I do understand is he is not the author of confusion!

 

[heymikey80]

There're two sides of a Christian -- first, there's the fact that Christians sin (1 John 1:8-10). But there's also the Spirit within the Christian, doing and working what He wills (1 John 2, cf Pp 2:13).

The idea that Christians call no one "father" is false. Paul: Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 1 Cor 4:15 The fact is, Jesus' statements weren't intended to force his disciples not to use the words "teacher" or "father" any more.

It takes looking deeper.

God gives us the ability to investigate ourselves. God also gives people in the church instructions as to how to identify characteristics of people to follow. But our evaluations do not decide the person believes or not. We develop the abilities to be more discerning; we use those abilities for the benefit of those in the church; but they are not definitive.

You're right to evaluate people; but it's not a good idea to simply reject the witness of people based on individual offenses against Scriptural rules (that is, sin) nor on specific verses that weren't really meant to be taken that way (that is, interpretive issues). People can also be naive, or immature in their actions. Finally, Scripture demands that we make the consideration that people are our brothers, not subject to severe examination or excoriation. Ultimately, y'can't take the Lord's Supper while holding Christians in your own assembly under suspicion. For your sake, you should give people the benefit of the doubt until something substantial appears against them.

 

[Goodbook]

Heymikey.
Please can you give the Word and not just references to the Word. When I look up your references, I read them in context. When you say Christians sin and refer to 1 John 8-10, he is not talking about Christians who are born again. He is talking about everyone, and that if we confess our sins, Jesus will cleanse us, and forgive us from ALL sin.

Later in John chapter 2 , verse 6- John talks about how when we abide in him we sin not, 'whoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth rightousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.'

Here he is talking of born-again Christians, those born of God.

As for your reference to the father that Paul says..he is using a metaphor that he gave birth to them via the gospel but then, if so, what did Jesus really mean? You say, the fact is..it wasn't Jesus intention, but you don't then explain what his intention was. Please don't say it's a fact and expect me to take YOUR word for it without any explanation.

Not all Christians are born-again. We all know this. People come to church looking to for various things, comfort, to know God, or spiritual experience, because their parents make them, or just to improve their lives or be respectable. Not all genuinely have a heart for Jesus. But we always pray that they be saved and born again. Which is why I see a difference between testimonies of those born again and those that just got religion and call themselves Christian. Born-again Christians recognise in each other that we are family. We are also called to beware of False teachers who deceive others. We also have to recognise that our brothers who are struggling may not know what it means to be truly born again and need the simple truth of the gospel. It is no good to see someone proclaim they are a christian but demonstrate they are not, or never were simply because they go to church or read a lot of christian literature or went to bible school or had parents that were ministers.

For example, is Katy Perry a Christian? She considers herself to be one because of her parents, but, if we see her fruit, we have reason to doubt. Or is she just immature? Now it is true we can have our trials that can test or strengthen our faith, but to say we are Christian and then not follow Jesus by loving the world is hypocritical. Do we excoriate them? No. We just pray that she comes back to the Lord.

Born-again Christians are Christians without a doubt. Everyone else, we can doubt. And that is good, because jesus says he comes for sinners, those that are sick and who need a physician. So we can definitely say - that person, even if they are talking religion and theology or things spiritual, but if they demonstrate in a way that they don't have the Holy Spirit, then they - NEED TO TRULY KNOW JESUS AND BE BORN-AGAIN.

You are right in one aspect of the Lord's Supper..but I am not talking about Christians in my own assembly. If you go to a church that preaches the gospel and is spirit-filled you just know. This is not about being suspicious. It is about being discerning, and it is not about what the church teaches or what I say. It is about what the Bible says.

 

[heymikey80]

Please can you give the Word and not just references to the Word. When I look up your references, I read them in context. When you say Christians sin and refer to 1 John 8-10, he is not talking about Christians who are born again. He is talking about everyone, and that if we confess our sins, Jesus will cleanse us, and forgive us from ALL sin.

As you finally said at the end -- yeah, born-again Christians are really the only Christians. The rest are counterfeit. I wouldn't call counterfeit money real money.

Of course John is talking about born again Christians. John himself is born again. What's John say? "we". "we" unmistakably includes himself, John, a born-again Christian. "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10

Like I said -- look carefully at the context of Scripture. There's a lot to understand, it takes time to recognize what it's saying.

All real Christians are born again: "Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”" John 3:5-8

Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God 1 John 5:1

All Christians are born again. Scripture says it, pointblank.

Later in John chapter 2 , verse 6- John talks about how when we abide in him we sin not, 'whoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doeth rightousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.'

Here he is talking of born-again Christians, those born of God.

Actually, no John's not saying born again Christians don't sin any more. In point of fact, when people do a wooden translation from Greek they do Greek a disservice. The English Standard Version has been much more careful with the translation of 1 John, and it's got it much more accurately: "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." 1 John 3:6 That is, a true Christian is one who is not putting up with sin -- he's in the process of putting away with sin.

As for your reference to the father that Paul says..he is using a metaphor that he gave birth to them via the gospel but then, if so, what did Jesus really mean? You say, the fact is..it wasn't Jesus intention, but you don't then explain what his intention was. Please don't say it's a fact and expect me to take YOUR word for it without any explanation.

But it's quite clear in the instance you mention, just calling someone "father" doesn't instantly eliminate the case.

Jesus is pointing out the extremes, and Jesus teaches in outrageous statements to emphasize certain points. "call no man father" is from Matthew 23, Jesus is outraged at the claims to authority among the rabbis. He's demanding people quit the abuse of such terms, and His remedy -- for evil people -- is to just stop using the term. He's essentially saying, "If you're going to call people "father" who really aren't, then it's time to stop calling anyone "father" until you learn what it means."

Not all Christians are born-again. We all know this.

As far as God's concerned, every Christian is born again. Churchgoers are not necessarily Christians.

People come to church looking to for various things, comfort, to know God, or spiritual experience, because their parents make them, or just to improve their lives or be respectable. Not all genuinely have a heart for Jesus.

And that would be people who come close to the body of believers. Entering a church doesn't make you a Christian any more than walking into a McDonald's makes you a hamburger.

I've no trouble noting self-justifying views like Katy Perry's. I don't think it fools anyone. Claims like this are not going to stand up to death: that's no more a conversion story than Charlie Sheen's. But in other cases, born again Christians make errors, do sin, and ... live to tell about it.

 

[seashale76]

To the OP: Get behind me Satan!

You dare to judge the hearts of others. Fr. Bernstein is a good man and a good priest. You condemn what you absolutely DO NOT KNOW out of complete ignorance. I invite you to our services in the Orthodox Church and to speak to our clergy during this Lenten season to help correct your misperceptions of the True Faith.

In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

O heavenly King, O Comforter, the Spirit of truth, who art in all places and fillest all things; Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and dwell in us and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O gracious Lord.

Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal: have mercy on us. (Thrice)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.

All-holy Trinity, have mercy on us. Lord, cleanse us from our sins. Master, pardon our iniquities. Holy God, visit and heal our infirmities for thy Name's sake.

Lord, have mercy. (Thrice)

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit: now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy Name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Through the prayers of our holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us. Amen.

 

[Goodbook]

er..I'm not condemning him and judging him. I'm questioning him.
Difference. And I'm happy to be judged, I know that God will judge me. Doesn't mean I daren't judge anyone. When someone writes a testimony, they are putting in their own words whats in their hearts, so that others may believe what they say. So it is fine to judge what they write.
Do we call anybody good? Even Jesus says, don't call him good. No one is good but God.

Peter says you as a believer always have an ready answer for the hope you have within you. He is not just saying that to run to your church's 'clergy'. If you can't explain your faith to anyone then your faith is in vain, you are only having faith in someone else's faith.

Although I found some answers to that hope that Bernstein had, I still had more questions. Questions are not condemnations. His book was really good on explaining Orthodox teachings, BUT he TOTALLY omitted any mention of icons, or whether he repeated the Jesus prayer over and over. These I read about in other books, written by ORTHODOX Christians themselves. It is not out of ignorance.

But in other cases, born again Christians make errors, do sin, and ... live to tell about it.

Can you give me some examples please. You say one thing, and then say the complete opposite. I'm confused.

 

[heymikey80]

Can you give me some examples please.

Examples? They're all over the place, but the general case is at 1 John 1:8-10.

Y'want more?

for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 1 Jn 3:20

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently Gal 6:1

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. Rom 7:25

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 1 Tim 1:15

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1 John 2:1

Peter says you as a believer always have an ready answer for the hope you have within you. He is not just saying that to run to your church's 'clergy'. If you can't explain your faith to anyone then your faith is in vain, you are only having faith in someone else's faith.

Oh, and Peter:

69 Now Peter was sitting out in the courtyard, and a servant girl came to him. “You also were with Jesus of Galilee,” she said.
70 But he denied it before them all. “I don’t know what you’re talking about,” he said.
71 Then he went out to the gateway, where another servant girl saw him and said to the people there, “This fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth.”
72 He denied it again, with an oath: “I don’t know the man!”
73 After a little while, those standing there went up to Peter and said, “Surely you are one of them; your accent gives you away.”
74 Then he began to call down curses, and he swore to them, “I don’t know the man!” Immediately a rooster crowed. Mt 26:69-74

You say one thing, and then say the complete opposite. I'm confused.

It'd be necessary to point out what you think are opposites if you'd like me to explain how they're not.

 

[Peripatetic]

Examples? They're all over the place, but the general case is at 1 John 1:8-10.

And two more specific examples:

Was Peter not a true Christian because he showed some bad fruit by veering himself and others towards the false doctrine and hypocrisy of the Judaizers? Paul tells of his public rebuke of Peter for those actions in Galatians 2:11–13.

Speaking of Paul... he too went on sinning, as he admits in Romans 7:15: "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." The New Living version is a bit easier to follow: "I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate."

All Christians sin, chose wrongly, interpret some scripture incorrectly, and generally mess things up sometimes. I'm curious Goodbook: what is your opinion of sanctification? Do you believe that a person is "done" once born again? No more worldly corruption to root out? Or do you agree that we remain imperfect, but make progress throughout our lives? Does the renewing of our minds happen in an instant or over time as the Holy Spirit leads us through sanctification?

Sure seems to me that the Bible's biggest heroes make plenty of mistakes and bad choices along the way. We all do the same.

 

[Goodbook]

I don't think Peter was sinning. He was just growing in his faith. He sinned when he denied Christ, but that was before he was born-again. On the day of Pentecost. It was his vision of the clean/unclean animals that changed his mind, revealed to him by Jesus. Before he was teaching people the wrong doctrine, but that was out of ignorance. He wasn't sinning. Notice the vision appeared thrice.

Paul was explaining how he felt before when he was a sinner. Remember he murdered and persecuted the new church. He says he obtained mercy and explains how Jesus Christ made him free from the law of sin and death, now he is walking after spirit. Paul did not continue sinning.
I think people are getting tenses mixed up here and interpreting what the apostles say in the past as what they are doing now. Admittedly, the translation can be a problem, but when we look in context that it's clear what they are saying.

You have to read the whole passage, not just bits and pieces and then conclude 'christians sin!'. You leave off the verses in Romans that straight after say 'there is therefore now no comdemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.' When you are born again, all your past sins are paid for by Jesus. You repented of your sin, to sin no more. You are given the Holy Spirit. You may be tempted, but you choose not to sin. You are not bound by sin anymore. You are a slave of righteousness, not sin. You walk in spirit, not the flesh. The Holy Spirit teaches you and shows you what sins you had in your life, and if they were habits, lets you become free of them. Sin becomes abhorrent to you. You renew your mind over time as you continue to grow and walk with God. You are called to be a saint, not a sinner! You are a new creature in Christ!

If any Christian thinks he/she can still sin, they are not saved! If any Christian thinks, I can still sin, just go to church and get forgiven on Sunday to sin again on Monday - they don't really believe that Jesus died for them on the cross to deliver them from sin once and for all. They are not born again, and they don't have the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit works for our sanctification. He is HOLY. On judgment day, we present ourselves before God, to be acceptable and Holy people. How can we be Holy if we continue in our sinful ways?? You can't think, just because I call myself a christian, I'm going to go to heaven, and I can just continue living like everyone else in the world. All those who are born again are Christians, but the reality is not all those who call themselves Christians are born again.

Note - the people in the Old Testament sinned, and kept on sinning. God favoured some. God had mercy on some of them. But many could not keep themselves from sinning, ie. Solomon. Why? Because Jesus had not come to deliver them! God doesn't kill sinners! If he did, none of us would be alive today. He gives us a chance to repent. People who continue to sin will eventually die in their sin, as all sin has consequences. On Judgment day they will be turned away from Heaven, because they didn't believe that Jesus could save them from their sin.
To repent means not just to say 'i'm sorry, I made a mistake, forgive me'. To repent means you know you did something wrong that offended God, and to turn from it. You are mortified by sin. You cannot save yourself. Only Jesus can. Then Jesus helps you by sending you a helper the Holy Spirit so that you will not sin. God wants us to be perfect, as he is perfect. We are not made perfect instantly, but grow into perfection. We are called to become like Jesus. And the only way to do that is to believe in Jesus as our saviour and be born again.