Jesus in conversion stories

[Peripatetic]

Just to be clear: you are saying that born again Christians no longer sin? You have not sinned since your rebirth? This is not a debate thread, as has been said many times, so I am not going to present the opposing view. I will only speak for myself that a clear examination of conscience always uncovers sins of commission and omission. I continue to confess these sins and look for ways to reduce or eliminate them. I don't want to trivialize my future glorification or minimize the sinless perfection of Jesus by lifting myself up with the belief that I am without sin.

If any Christian thinks he/she can still sin, they are not saved! If any Christian thinks, I can still sin, just go to church and get forgiven on Sunday to sin again on Monday - they don't really believe that Jesus died for them on the cross to deliver them from sin once and for all.

Thinking we are allowed to sin because it will be forgiven is something completely different. It's called Antinomianism, and it is not a common belief among Christians.

 

[seashale76]

Although I found some answers to that hope that Bernstein had, I still had more questions. Questions are not condemnations. His book was really good on explaining Orthodox teachings, BUT he TOTALLY omitted any mention of icons, or whether he repeated the Jesus prayer over and over. These I read about in other books, written by ORTHODOX Christians themselves. It is not out of ignorance.

Forgive me, but it did seem to me as if your post was rather condemning instead of merely questioning. I apologize if I misread it, but I take my faith seriously, and I take the mocking of it seriously.

Regarding icons and prayer to the saints:

That said, I pray thee to hearken unto my post.

And the problem with icons is....? We don't worship them. We also kiss the hands of our priests and bishops, but we don't worship them either. In fact, during Forgiveness Vespers, we often make prostrations to each other when asking forgiveness, and we're certainly not worshipping each other. I'm failing to see the dilemma. The saints are alive in Christ. They're not dead. We ask them to pray for us. This is far from a problem. Jews had images in their temples too. Orthodox Jews also pray for the dead and ask for prayers.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc. Prayer to the saints IS NOT WORSHIP! Perhaps this misconception came about from bad translation? At any rate, I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible.

So, on that note, let me address the topic of there only being one mediator between God and man- Jesus Christ. That’s a big duh and we don’t disagree.

We go directly to the Holy Trinity in prayer. However, the next time someone at your church, or wherever, asks you to pray for them, I wonder if you would simply tell them to only go to Christ and not bother you with the task of praying for them? How is asking the saints to pray for us different? Think about it.

Furthermore, if anyone says that we’re praying to the dead, we absolutely aren’t and scripture agrees. When anyone argues from this particular perspective they are actually insinuating that the God they claim to worship and believe in is the god of the dead and not the living!

However, the God I worship is the God of the living. The saints of the Church are ALIVE in Christ. I will ask them to pray for me, as I ask my other brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for me, and I them.

Scripture agrees:

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”


John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.


Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”


Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Regarding the Jesus Prayer:
The problem with praying the Jesus prayer is...? If one says a prayer and means it every time they say it, the problem is what exactly? It isn't a vain repetition, but learning to pray without ceasing at that point. I'm not seeing the problem. Lord Jesus Christ, son of God, have mercy upon me, a sinner!

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using the material world to bring us closer to God. After all, Christ came in the flesh. To deny the physical and material part of the faith is wrong and misguided. It is quite gnostic to do so, actually. Faith isn't symbolic or an intellectual assent to something intangible. EVERYTHING about the Church points us to Christ. I'm actually failing to see how you can come to ANY other conclusion about the Church. This is PRECISELY why I invited you to come and see our services and speak to our clergy. The faith must be experienced and lived- not read about. There is no other way if you are really wanting to see that your perceptions are wrong.

Today we commemorate the "Triumph of Orthodoxy," the restoration of the holy icons in the reign of the holy Empress Theodora (February 11).

Troparion - Tone 2

We venerate Your most pure image, O Good One,
and ask forgiveness of our transgressions, O Christ God.
Of Your own will You were pleased to ascend the Cross in the flesh
to deliver Your creatures from bondage to the enemy.
Therefore with thanksgiving we cry aloud to You:
You have filled all with joy, O our Savior,
by coming to save the world.

Kontakion - Tone 8

No one could describe the Word of the Father;
but when He took flesh from you, O Theotokos, He accepted to be described,
and restored the fallen image to its former beauty.
We confess and proclaim our salvation in word and images.

Synodikon of the 7th Oecumenical Council

"As the prophets beheld, as the Apostles have taught, as the Church has received, as the teachers have dogmatized, as the Universe has agreed, as Grace has shown forth, as Truth has revealed, as falsehood has been dissolved, as Wisdom has presented, as Christ awarded, thus we declare, thus we assert, thus we preach Christ our true God, and honour His Saints in words, in writings, in thoughts, in sacrifices, in churches, in Holy Icons; on the one hand worshipping and reverencing Christ as God and Lord; and on the other hand honouring as true servants of the same Lord of all and accordingly offering them veneration.
This is the Faith of the Apostles,
this is the Faith of the Fathers,
this is the Faith of the Orthodox,
this is the Faith which has established the Universe."

Regarding being born-again:
One is born again at their baptism and chrismation when they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Goodbook]

Thanks for your explanations..seashale. I know a book can't always explain what we experience during worship..although, having said that, I could not do without the Word of God to see what He commands us to do. I flicked through 'The Mystery of Faith' which says it is An introduction to the Teaching and Spirituality of the Orthodox Church. I'm quite happy where I am with God at the moment and in fellowship with others and with the faith God gave me so I'm not looking around for churches, but as I said as a new Christian I'm bewildered by all the other christianities around me.

It is quite good at explaining what you said. But personally I have some problems with some of the other doctrine the Orthodox teaches especially deification, and the teachings on hell, with the church fathers veering suspiciously into universalism, that seem to depart from what Jesus teaches in the Bible, as well, I don't agree with the eucharist as something that gives us eternal life or that Jesus IS the eucharist and the Priest has to sacrifice him over and over and the more we partake the more we become like God, who is always said to be 'a mystery'. If this is a misperception of Orthodoxy forgive me but it just doesn't square with our Heavenly Father, his Son and the Holy Spirit in the Bible. The Holy Spirit comes and dwells in born again believers, He doesn't insert himself in bread and wine, at least, Jesus never taught that he would. If He did that then I'd certainly offer this bread and wine to everyone! Another thing I found troubling was, in orthodox teachings they will pray for others not to go to hell. While this is sincere, I think it misses the point..why not tell others how they can be saved by spreading the gospel of Jesus instead?
Also it is a bit misguided to believe non-orthodox christians think it's wrong to use material things to bring us closer to God. After all, we read the Bible - which is written for us on paper! We read it prayerfully, but we don't pray TO the bible or worship it. (I have heard some orthodox saying non-orthodox protestants idolise the Bible).

Well I don't know about praying to saints or asking them to pray for us. But this is because I don't KNOW any saints of the Church. If you showed me an icon of a saint I wouldn't know them in any sense except that's a picture of someone and you tell me who it is. How would I know for sure if this person is a saint? How do they know me? They can't talk to me.
But I do know my brothers and sisters and they can talk to me and I know they can pray for me and WITH me. When I was in the New Age religion which is really westernised Hinduism there seemed to be a lot of this intercession going on with avatars which seem similar to icons..and the theology of the orthodox church seems getting kind of pantheistic to me. I know the church affirms the Trinity but they also add on further teachings. If, following orthodxy, we become like God, and the saints are alive as you say they must have attained their God-likeness, so, if we pray to them, we are praying to them as Gods (or asking them to pray for us?) ...ok now I'm confused. I think I'll just stick to praying to God and with people I know rather than asking the saints I don't.

As for the Jesus Prayer - why do you need to say it over and over? Is not once enough? That's what's meant by vain repetition. If you mean it the first time, you don't need to repeat it again straight after...unless.. you believe God is deaf? In the gospels, the sinner only said it once. Pray without ceasing just means don't stop praying.
Like don't stop hoping, Paul was saying don't forget to pray, pray always. He was reminding people, like you would tell someone, at the end of a letter, 'keep in touch'. He was just saying 'keep praying, keep talking to God, don't forget God'.
Some people take the Bible so literally! We can all be Holy Fools I suppose, Jesus doesn't mind.

Peripetic - to clarify..born again christians no longer want to sin. Before we were born again we couldn't help but sin. Now we can. And so we decide not to. We don't say we are sinless, because the Holy Spirit convicts us of that - everyone has sinned in their life. This is not to say we aren't tempted or struggle with sin going on all around us and may be living with the consequences of our past sins. However Jesus will always deliver us, so that we may be free of sin.

I suggest you read the entire letter from 1 John.
I think it's sad that many people teach the things about sin and that a christian can still sin by picking verses out of context. You are looking for ways to eliminate sin? You can't do it yourself!! Look to Jesus. Ask him to deliver you. You must be born again! Its not confessing your sins..what your must do is repent of your sins.
The Bible talks about confessing our faults to each other, which is different from our sins, which we confess to God. Well, my KJV says that anyway.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[heymikey80]

I don't think Peter was sinning. He was just growing in his faith. He sinned when he denied Christ, but that was before he was born-again. On the day of Pentecost. It was his vision of the clean/unclean animals that changed his mind, revealed to him by Jesus. Before he was teaching people the wrong doctrine, but that was out of ignorance. He wasn't sinning. Notice the vision appeared thrice.

Peter was sinning. Denying Christ is sinning. In point of fact the vision of unclean animals was years after Pentecost, so Peter ... would be sinning. As a born-again Christian.

Nobody who actually knows Greek would conclude John was telling people there was no more sin. "If we say we have no sin, we're lying to ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 Read John's words. Until Christians recognize, "Hey, I have sin -- right here, right now," we're just lying to ourselves and the lie is in us, not in God's truth.

The truth is, we still have sin, and Jesus is working in us to put an end to it. The battle is ongoing.

The explanation provided, that Paul is describing his prior life before Christ at 7:25, flails against what Scripture actually said. I realize the term "then" can be quickly passed over in English: but look at it again. And look carefully at the verb tenses.

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. Rom 7:24-25

Paul is describing what is happening in the present time -- after he accepts Christ's deliverance. It's what Scripture says. Romans 8:1 follows on to this argument, too. Paul didn't have a "chapter 8" break in Scripture:

So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Rom 7:25-8:1

Once again, Christians sin. And there is no condemnation. That's what unmerited favor is all about: the unmerited favor of God has appeared, embrace of it is needed to escape God's future wrath. Embrace the grace.

 

[Goodbook]

Peter denied Jesus BEFORE he was born again.
I sinned HEAPS before I became a christian. So I am not saying I never sinned.

You are just confusing things. Born again Christians do not remain in sin. 1 John 6 says Whoseover abideth in him sinneth not: whosever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. You can only be a christian if you are Born again.

I don't know what bible you are reading, but you are neglecting KEY verses. And you read 'then' in a funny way.

Romans 8 verse 1 does not STOP AFTER 'christ Jesus'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is therefore now no condemnation in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, comdemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousnes of the law might be fuffilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.



Read the WHOLE of Romans 8 not just bits you like. Sorry, Jesus didn't come on this earth just to day believe in me, and you can sin as much as you like, I'll forgive you. NO. He forgives ALL our sins, paid for on the cross. When we do that he lets us to be born again and living in SPIRIT, worshipping and spirit and in truth. When we do THAT, by believing in him truly, we are under no condemnation.
The bible does not mention 'unmerited favour'. That is completed rubbish. Christians are not special people who continue to live a sinful life but still get to heaven anyway because they are favoured by God. Stop believing in the doctrines of men, and READ GOD"S WORDS IN YOUR HOLY BIBLE. King James version. Not corrupt versions of the Bible and broken scriptures!

Strange...I come to a christian forum, thinking, I'll find fellowship with christian brothers and sisters here (and I do..in some threads, God Bless - you know who you are) ...but instead I find people following all kinds of cults and religions and theologies and priests and church traditions and philosophies instead of Jesus. Hmm.
And also.. I don't think the issue of icons was ever addressed. Nevermind. Jesus never asked for people to adore his image, and neither did he change his own body and blood into bread and wine when he ate with his disciples in the last supper. You cannot be saved just by eating the eucharist. JESUS wants us to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. He doesn't ask us that we have to know Greek to be saved. He wants us to know HIM.

 

[heymikey80]

Peter denied Jesus BEFORE he was born again.
I sinned HEAPS before I became a christian. So I am not saying I never sinned.

Peter confessed Jesus was the Christ before he denied Christ. John himself said, "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" 1 John 5:1.

So no, Peter denied Jesus AFTER he was born again.

It's what Scripture says.

I think that, in general, starting out being suspicious of people's viewpoints while being credulous of your own preconceptions tends to lead people away from Scripture. People end up insulating themselves in their own viewpoint, and won't notice when their viewpoint is far afield of what Scripture says.

You are just confusing things.

Really. No, I don't think so. The Bible itself says that it's through my faith that overcomes the world, by Christ's sacrifice for me. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 1 John 5:4 It's not our walk that overcomes the world, according to John.

Born again Christians do not remain in sin. 1 John 6 says Whoseover abideth in him sinneth not: whosever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. You can only be a christian if you are Born again.

Yes, born again Christians put away sins. 1 John 3:6 say those who abide in Christ don't continue to sin. They agree with God about sins they see, and put them away.

That is not the same as becoming sinless. That means the Christian life is one of identifying our sins, confessing them (that is agreeing with God about them, not proclaiming them publicly), and seeking to put away with the sins we become aware of.

I don't know what bible you are reading, but you are neglecting KEY verses. And you read 'then' in a funny way.

Romans 8 verse 1 does not STOP AFTER 'christ Jesus'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is therefore now no condemnation in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, comdemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousnes of the law might be fuffilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

You've noticed that everything after "Christ Jesus" in verse 1 is omitted when I cite it. That's because early manuscripts do stop after "Christ Jesus" at verse 1.

Here's how the early manuscripts read:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom 8:1-4

The end of verse 4 was later copied into the end of verse 1.

Yes, I'd read the letter Paul wrote instead of the letter as it was later copied and translated into the KJV.

Read the WHOLE of Romans 8 not just bits you like.

Not bits I like. Bits Paul wrote, the way he wrote them.

Sorry, Jesus didn't come on this earth just to day believe in me, and you can sin as much as you like, I'll forgive you. NO. He forgives ALL our sins, paid for on the cross.

Nobody's said that. But getting the cart before the horse, people end up making a lot more out of works than Scripture ever says.

When we do that he lets us to be born again and living in SPIRIT, worshipping and spirit and in truth. When we do THAT, by believing in him truly, we are under no condemnation.
The bible does not mention 'unmerited favour'. That is completed rubbish.

The Bible mentions it explicitly.

Grace - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity

Christians are not special people who continue to live a sinful life but still get to heaven anyway because they are favoured by God. Stop believing in the doctrines of men, and READ GOD"S WORDS IN YOUR HOLY BIBLE. King James version. Not corrupt versions of the Bible and broken scriptures!

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ep 2:8-9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began 2 Tim 1:8

Strange...I come to a christian forum, thinking, I'll find fellowship with christian brothers and sisters here (and I do..in some threads, God Bless - you know who you are) ...but instead I find people following all kinds of cults and religions and theologies and priests and church traditions and philosophies instead of Jesus. Hmm.

It may be worthwhile reading the community rules so you have an idea what the forum expects from all posters. I appreciate that you're set in your own theology, and this particular forum is actually for hearing a variety of views from different perspectives. But you do need to be prepared for numerous different viewpoints.

It's not okay to attack other members of Christ's church on this forum.

 

[Goodbook]

Yes the Bible does say we are saved from ALL our sins.



1John7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



The bible says by Grace through faith we are saved. Saved means Jesus forgives our all our sins, We are washed clean. So that God, on judgment day, will not have any cause to be displeased with us, in our sins. It means, also we do not continue to sin because we are saved from sinning. According to John, we walk in the light.

According to Paul in Romans, we walk in the spirit.

Walking means doing his commandments - loving God, and each other.

The christian life is not one of forever confessing sins and continuing in sin. Jesus paid for ALL of them, so we don't have to continue in them. He delivers us from them.





Another thing is, yes I understand that by grace that we are saved. But you also ignore the rest of ephesians 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What is grace? Grace is not 'unmerited favour'. Your definition is false. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. How can this be 'unmerited favour' if God resists the proud. We must have the right attitude to merit grace - that is, be humble toward God, that is, have complete faith, trust in him. Grace, is, according to my concordance, and in all the contexts of grace given in the New Testament of which it is spoken of, is the divine influence on the heart. And this influence that changes us, allows us to become free from sin by trusting that Jesus paid for ALL of it, and perfects us toward holiness.



So this answers WHY we are saved..so that we CAN do good works. It is not just..we are saved..by just staying as we are it's just now we confess our sins. That is why Paul calls us that are born again saints. All saints used to be sinners. But saints do not stay sinners. I realise this is a fine distinction. We cannot do good works to get saved. But after we are saved, we naturally do good works. If we say we are saved but don't do any good works and continue to sin we can't really be saved. That's why James said faith without works is dead. Works are the sign of fruitfulness that we had faith in the first place. That's how we know it is true faith in Jesus, rather than faith in anything or anyone else. This includes churches, spiritual leaders within the church, theologians, philosophers, other religions, good causes, and ourselves.



I'm not attacking other peoples viewpoints. I just realise there are lots of different ones and it is getting confusing. God is true, he cannot lie. He is not the author of confusion. So why am I getting confused from your posts? Because you are giving false definitions, ignoring verses, and taking things out of context.



I apologise if I didn't get your meaning, it just seemed the way you put it, that Christians get saved, but continue to sin..that's not my experience..and if they continue to sin..then how can they ever say they were saved from sin if they keep on sinning. If they do that, than they must mean something else by saying they are saved. Maybe to them it means 'sinners set apart for heaven'. But that is not what the bible says, it says the wages of sin is death.



As for the KJV..hmm, I concede there may be a copying error there. But still, I understand it does not detract from what Paul is saying..that we walk in spirit and not after the flesh.



Another thing is your reading of Peter is false. He did not deny Jesus after he was born again. Peter was born again on the day of Pentecost. When Jesus was on earth, he was one of the disciples that was let in on Jesus secret, that he was the Christ. Then he denied Jesus three times. He did not really believe until Jesus died and was resurrected. After Peter was born again, he was able to tell everyone, without shame, who Jesus really was. On his walk in the spirit, he stumbled a few times in ignorance, but Jesus helped him. This is not sin. That's how he got the vision of the unclean/clean animals.

Please read your bible all the way through.

 

[Peripatetic]

Goodbook: You didn't answer my question the last time I asked it: do you believe that you have not sinned since receiving the Holy Spirit? I'm not being argumentative - I'm genuinely curious. You are entitled to your opinions, but you probably also understand that most theologians, clergy, and Christians in general do not agree with this position.

I apologise if I didn't get your meaning, it just seemed the way you put it, that Christians get saved, but continue to sin..that's not my experience..and if they continue to sin..then how can they ever say they were saved from sin if they keep on sinning.

The overwhelming majority of Christians believe that we are saved form sin, but we continue to sin. Not in outright rebellion, but in areas common to man (pride, greed, anger, vanity, etc.) or areas of personal weakness.

 

[Goodbook]

If I were to tell you about all my sins before I was born again it probably would need to write a book. Jesus set me free. When I was in that sinful state I was in bondage to sin. Many of these sins were just related to unbelief and pride and things not pleasing to God. I repented of these sins and the Holy Spirit chastised me and every day I walk in spirit I see more and more the way to righteousness and no longer am attracted to sin, and the author of all the lies and deceptions that lead to sin - Satan. I've learned discernment.
I put on the armour of God and it's not 'I believe I don't sin' it's that sin has no power over me and the ways of the world just don't interest me, I am free to follow Jesus and his ways are not sinful and not the way of sin. I am dead to sin and alive in Christ. Thank God that he set me free!

 

[Peripatetic]

If I were to tell you about all my sins before I was born again it probably would need to write a book. Jesus set me free. When I was in that sinful state I was in bondage to sin. Many of these sins were just related to unbelief and pride and things not pleasing to God. I repented of these sins and the Holy Spirit chastised me and every day I walk in spirit I see more and more the way to righteousness and no longer am attracted to sin, and the author of all the lies and deceptions that lead to sin - Satan. I've learned discernment.
I put on the armour of God and it's not 'I believe I don't sin' it's that sin has no power over me and the ways of the world just don't interest me, I am free to follow Jesus and his ways are not sinful and not the way of sin. I am dead to sin and alive in Christ. Thank God that he set me free!

What you said above is almost completely in line with Christianity (and a bit different from what I inferred from your previous posts). Someone truly walking in faith does gain discernment... is freed from the bondage of sin... is less attracted to the ways of the world... and see His ways more and more. Well said!

However, saying "I am free from the power sin has over me" is very different from "I am not a sinner" or claiming that the apostles no longer sinned after receiving the Holy Spirit.

You said, "the ways of the world just don't interest me." I'm willing to bet that you (like me and everyone else) still has areas of weakness that do still tempt and attract you - and you give in to them from time to time. It might be gossip or worldly TV shows or overeating or lustful thoughts or over-spending or vanity or... Not one of us is completely free from those temptations or is able to always resist them.

The very template for prayer that Jesus gave us has these two lines: "Forgive us our sins" and "Lead us not into temptation". They are present tense. They don't say, "thank you for forgiving the sins of my old life and thank you that I'm no longer tempted to sin anymore." Instead, sin and temptation continue to be a part of our daily prayer lives because we still sin and we are still tempted. But as you said, we are delivered from those sins through our faith in the justification of Jesus' death on the cross.

 

[Goodbook]

Please understand that when you are talking 'we' you seem to be talking about what Catholics teach and believe about sin and salvation, which I don't share, and I'm sure not 'everyone else' does either. I seem to get from your posts that your church is a Catholic one or holds to catholic ideas. I don't hold this against you, I just understand it's quite different from what is taught in the Bible.

Another thing is I never wrote 'I am not a sinner' please don't write that I claimed this! I also never wrote the apostles never sinned after receiving the Holy Spirit. I was talking about Peter specifically. I don't know about the other apostles, I cannot judge. But certainly, Peter was changed after receiving the Holy Spirit, as was Paul. Before, Peter was dithery, he was fearful, he was impetuous, and he was clueless. It seems even when he knew Jesus he didn't really believe. He was ashamed and denied knowing Jesus! Afterwards, he was able to proclaim the gospel and speak with assurance that he was an eyewitness to Jesus majesty to encourage others to believe. No shame there! Paul before was an arrogant Pharisee quick to denounce believers and unmerciful, causing them much suffering. After his conversion, he was humbled and learned to bear much suffering for Christs sake, and showed genuine love for Gentiles! For a Pharisee Jew to mix with Gentiles would have been unheard of.

Just because you sin does not mean you can infer that all christians sins like you do! It just means you haven't been freed from sin by being born again. This is what makes christianity different from Judaism, they follow God's commandments and also confess their sins, asking God and each other for forgiveness(on Yom Kippur, day of atonement). But their righteousness inevitably turns into self-righteousness because they obey the law. A Christian cannot be self-righteous because our righteousness only comes about through the gospel of Jesus - his grace, and walking in Spirit.

When the disciples asked Jesus how to pray, he gave them a model prayer on how to approach our Father, which many churches now teach as the Lord's prayer but he did not say 'pray this by prayer by rote every day' He didn't want long prayers or vain repetitions, or us to pray to impress others. When we are in a relationship with Him, we talk to him from our heart and the Spirit helps us if we don't know what to pray for. The letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
Just as an aside, my KJV says 'forgive us our debts' (not sins). We can certainly praise the Lord that our sins have been dealt with! Thats one of the reasons we go to church, to praise him and worship him, to thank him for what he's done for us, to celebrate our new life together. We can also pray to him about our anxieties and worries etc. There is no rule in the Bible that we have to pray those exact words that Jesus gave us all the time.

Another thing you'll learn from reading the Bible is that Jesus said 'I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentence'. It is not just confessing sins. It is repenting from them. What is repentence? Repentence is changing your mind, turning from sin. It is when we acknowledge this, and that having faith only Jesus can save us, not anything we can do ourselves, that we can be truly delivered. Yes you may feel remorse (we all do) but it is not just remorse and saying sorry that God wants. It is that we repent. Turn from sin! Not turn halfheartedly and then give in from time to time and think I'm ok because I go to church and I'm think of myself as a christian I'm automatically forgiven everything I do. This is not how God sees sin in the Bible.

I understand you don't really follow what it means to be born again. How can I not be tempted and attracted to worldy things? Well in from the beginning I was tempted for sure! Just like Jesus was tempted in the desert. But I was able to resist this with scripture just like Jesus did. And you know what, it's true, what James writes 'resist the devil and he will flee from you'. So he does not bother me with lies and temptations anymore. And I keep reading my Bible and having God's word written on my heart and in my mind so that he can never come back. This is the armour of God his word, our daily bread.

Jesus explained about being born again in this parable:
'No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
But new wine must be put into new bottle; and both are preserved.
No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better.

Ezekiel chapter 19 tells us how God sees us

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them: for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal, are not your ways unequal?
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God; wherefore turn yourselves and and live ye.

Being born again I gave up my old life for a new life in Christ, a new spirit, a new heart, a new creature, and having the mind of Christ. How could I go back to my old ways? I've been there and done that! gossiped, had lustful thoughts etc. My old self was crucified with Christ.
How could I, being made righteous with Christ, even THINK about returning to 'all the abominations the wicked doeth' when I love God and knows what pleases Him and know how he will judge us in the end?
Jesus, through his death on the cross, makes this all possible.

Another scripture says you cannot serve two masters, you will either love one or hate the other. So the reality is you can choose who you will serve - you can either be a slave to sin, or a servant of righteousness. If you are still a slave to sin..you can ask Jesus to set you free.

Jesus proclaimed the words of Isaiah
'the Spirit of the Lord God is upon me: because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek, he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearterd, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opeing of the prison to them that are bound.'

I pray you stand firm in your faith and resist temptation by yielding to the Holy Spirit - Remember Jesus is the one who casts out the demons, who delivers us from evil. His blood washes away all our sins. (I know, an atheist would say that sounds bizarre!) But trust him, he can set you free, when you are free, you are free indeed. Christians are called to be saints, to be holy, to be equipped to do good works, to be presented without spot or blemish, to abhor sin, to do God's will.

 

[Peripatetic]

Please understand that when you are talking 'we' you seem to be talking about what Catholics teach and believe about sin and salvation, which I don't share, and I'm sure not 'everyone else' does either. I seem to get from your posts that your church is a Catholic one or holds to catholic ideas. I don't hold this against you, I just understand it's quite different from what is taught in the Bible.

Have you heard of R.C. Sproul? Greg Laurie? Chip Ingram? Mark Driscoll? Chuck Swindoll? Toby Logsden? Danny Hodges? They are all Protestant theologians/pastors/teachers that I listen to via podcast for about an hour every day. They represent multiple denominations, as well as Calvinist and Arminian positions on salvation. Would it surprise you to know that I created a Bible Study podcast review site that helps hundreds of people find those Protestant podcasts? There are no Catholic podcasts listed on my site. Would it also surprise you that my "go to" commentaries are The Bible Knowledge Commentary and ESV Study Bible (both with very strong Protestant leanings)? As I said earlier, I attended a Presbyterian college and married a Baptist. Why do we still attend Catholic mass? Because we feel that the Catholics show more reverence. Purely subjective opinion, but I think the Protestant churches (especially the mega churches) are getting to be more about the pastor and the presentation than about adoration and worship. I like kneeling. I like chanting the Lord's Prayer. It puts me in a good frame of mind for a different kind of worship than Bible study and day-to-day prayer.

I generally follow Protestant theologians and commentaries because they are more in-depth and immediate. The Catholic church also teaches the Bible, but they tend to keep it at a higher level. But even those Protestant theologians listed above disagree on some major points of doctrine. That's why I listen to all of them! However, every single one of them... all Protestant... teaches that we are still sinners.

This debate about sin has played out, so I won't go on about it. I say all this because I want to underscore the importance of learning different perspectives as part of our Christian lives. So many of us judge other denominations based on misinformation and past history. I don't judge the current Catholic church based on the reformation era corruption any more than I judge modern-day Lutherans for Martin Luther's published antisemitism or judge other Protestants because so many of them in the Bible Belt of the south had slaves. All denominations still have corruption in the ranks, but they also have unique perspectives that we can learn from. Don't fear them!

 

[Goodbook]

No I haven't. I read the Bible and follow Gods Word.
I don't pay much attention to theologians, whatever denom they are. If they are speaking God's truth. I take heed, if they aren't, I don't.

hebrews 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

The writer of Hebrews was talking about how people observe things differently with regard to food. But this also can be applied to different teachings. But we know

1John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

He is refering to the Holy Spirit.
Also there are false teachers, even coming from within protestantism, who come and decieve the flock. They style themselves as theologians, pastors and teachers. If they teach that born again christians can still sin, and stay sinners then this is just going back to the catholic idea that you have to keep confessing to be absolved, and try by your own efforts working to salvation and not straight to Jesus...then sorry they are wrong.

2 Timothy 4:3 says
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Do you listen to only what you want to hear and fail to search the scriptures to see if this is so?

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


As I said before people seem to be more interested in listening to religion than listening to God, and fail to hear what Jesus says about beware of false prophets that come as wolves in sheeps clothing, to deceive the flock. By their fruits we shall know them. That is, discern that they are FALSE! Notice, he didn't mean 'by their fruits we should learn from them because they are a different perspective'. Paul said 'I resolve to know nothing but Christ crucified', and he even said in his letters false teachers would creep in to try and subvert the gospel message and preach another spirit and another Jesus.

Ask what God wants, and what Jesus teaches in the bible don't pride yourself on what you think.