Fiance masturbates and it causes insecurity for me

[chris4243]

I can confidently say that masturbation is not a sin.* If you consider the things the Bible does mention, adultery, fornication among a priest's daughters, temple prostitution, bestiality, ..., and might as well add on the regulations on clean/unclean foods, etc. All these minor issues very specifically mentioned, and masturbation not? Even animals touch; and it would be ridiculous to think no one knew about masturbation back in the day. The only reasonable conclusion is that masturbation must have been allowed, else it would have been directly forbidden.

*However, lust is a sin.

so porn is not sinful, kiddie porn is not sinful, stripping is not sinful, drugs are not sinful, etc. because they are not specified in scripture? Really, this is really the place you want to take us with this argument?

Your deception helps prove my point. I denounce lust and then you ask why I say lust is OK? May your lies perish with you.

so let's use your argument above....what passage says that if we denounce masturbation as sinful it is sin? Remember, we are looking at consistency of argument....

A strawman. I said the important parts would be mentioned. Speaking on behalf of God is denounced multiple places in the Bible, and your ignorance of that is further evidence that your calling of masturbation a sin is based on hearsay rather than on scripture.

Furthermore, burdening people with unnecessary rules is also specifically denounced in Scripture.

In the rest of this paragraph I am looking for something that has not already been addressed without a rebuttal offered...this idea of the Golden rule is the first one to come up... but what you fail to understand is that the golden rule is why masturbation is considered a sin.

Show there is more harm in masturbating than in not, and then you can claim to use the Golden Rule. What harm does masturbation do that is worse than the proven decrease in prostrate cancer, for example?

that is also a new one, people will reject Christ because they can't touch....that would also take us back to the sin of masturbation because sin is the only thing that can keep us from God...shall we look at scripture on that?

Sure. This one I wouldn't expect you to know so I'll quote it for you.

Acts 15

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?
...
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Scripture very specifically says you shouldn't place a burden of extra rules on the new converts. Jesus also condemns the Pharisees for similar.

On every point I make, the Scriptures support me and yet you blather on as if you know what you're talking about with nothing to support what you say and displaying your ignorance of the Scriptures.

 

[MissJenn23]

I dont know it never really bothers me my hubby does it , sometimes in fact im thankful so he would leave me alone lol

 

[razzelflabben]

Just a heads up for those that missed it, the OP has now been happily married for 5 months and both topics of this thread are no longer an issue for them.

I remember but didn't want to say anything because they are still on their honeymoon and that basically means the topic is only on hold till the honeymoon is over...

 

[razzelflabben]

Your deception helps prove my point. I denounce lust and then you ask why I say lust is OK? May your lies perish with you.

Porn is not lust! Porn is a tool that leads one to lust, but porn is not lust....you might want to rethink your accusation here, it makes you look silly.

A strawman. I said the important parts would be mentioned. Speaking on behalf of God is denounced multiple places in the Bible, and your ignorance of that is further evidence that your calling of masturbation a sin is based on hearsay rather than on scripture.

I'm asking you to apply your argument consistently, I said nothing at all about whether this conclusion was sound or not...big difference...again, your misrepresentation of what I said, simply makes you look silly.

Furthermore, burdening people with unnecessary rules is also specifically denounced in Scripture.

Since I am not doing that, it doesn't apply to the discussion....moving on, you really do need to calm down and put forth well thought out rebuttals, your emotions are making you look silly.

Show there is more harm in masturbating than in not, and then you can claim to use the Golden Rule.

I showed an equal or greater amount of harm than benefits and unfortunately I am still waiting for evidence of the benefits you all claim...how long will I wait before you present evidence that supports your claims?

What harm does masturbation do that is worse than the proven decrease in prostrate cancer, for example?

well, since that was already presented, how about you presenting medical studies that show that masturbation reduces the chance of getting prostrate cancer, I still haven't found this evidence and I have been asking for it for pages now....

Sure. This one I wouldn't expect you to know so I'll quote it for you.

that passage says absolutely nothing about masturbation, not directly like you want to insist or indirectly....it simply says absolutely nothing about masturbation.

Scripture very specifically says you shouldn't place a burden of extra rules on the new converts.

no one is suggesting we do, all that is being suggested is that we call sin what it is, sin....

On every point I make, the Scriptures support me and yet you blather on as if you know what you're talking about with nothing to support what you say and displaying your ignorance of the Scriptures.

wow...you really do need to calm down and actually put forth some scriptures that apply to what is being said...start by providing any scripture or alternative interpretation of Gal 5:14, I'll take any real rebuttal at this point, evidence to support you claims, scripture that shows me wrong, or another viable conclusion to what passages I present...it's wide open...just present something to work with, something other than "because I say so"

 

[chris4243]

Oh, and in addition many people now consider things specifically forbidden in the Bible to no longer be sinful; per the verse I mentioned we are no longer burdened with those laws. I think the most important and flexible way to consider the Scriptures is to always focus on the Golden Rule, and is context-dependent.

 

[razzelflabben]

Oh, and in addition many people now consider things specifically forbidden in the Bible to no longer be sinful; per the verse I mentioned we are no longer burdened with those laws. I think the most important and flexible way to consider the Scriptures is to always focus on the Golden Rule, and is context-dependent.

Man, are you really gonna try this old and tired road.....count me out of that, that is a different discussion all together and the way you are presenting it here, people in the NT cannot sin...that dear one is just plain messed up false teaching and I'm out of that nonsense at least on this thread.

As to the Golden Rule...the Golden Rule is the rule of love...a love that is described in great detail in I Cor.13 and shows masturbation to be sinful. IOW's your argument of the golden rule is the exact same thing I said previously that shows masturbation to be sinful and yet you argue it as if it is somehow a point in favor of masturbation not being a sin....go figure, that is what happens when we love our sin more than God and insist on justifying that sin.

 

[chris4243]

I showed an equal or greater amount of harm than benefits and unfortunately I am still waiting for evidence of the benefits you all claim...how long will I wait before you present evidence that supports your claims?

You made empty claims and we made claims we did not support. The difference is, we can support our claims. Where's your scientific study supporting the claims you made, since you demand a study for our claims?

 

[Mayzoo]

I remember but didn't want to say anything because they are still on their honeymoon and that basically means the topic is only on hold till the honeymoon is over...

I am sure your optimism about their spirituality and commitment to the Lord and each other warms their hearts .

All things are possible with the Lord.......

 

[razzelflabben]

You made empty claims and we made claims we did not support. The difference is, we can support our claims. Where's your scientific study supporting the claims you made, since you demand a study for our claims?

Wow, really? This is the best argument you have...I showed where I am getting my evidence from, even showed references and still you refuse to show your evidence and somehow that is suppose to make my argument look weak or wrong....wow, you really are not good at this....

So, let's review, after repeated attempts to get you to support the claims that not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] causes physical harm, you still refuse.

In the meantime, I show that not masturbating results in 1. learning self control, a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22-23 2. lack of masturbation results in the emotional health of the partner or potential partner whose self worth suffers as a result of masturbation (see a google search of women suffering, see the OP, and look on this very forum for all the threads dealing with the issue as evidence to the claim) and 3. lack of masturbating causes an increase in self esteem (the only one I did not evidence) so let's find evidence. If one does not touch, it is an exercise in self control and winning that control over self and the flesh this improves self esteem Esteem
and Self-esteem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
we can also look at scripture but since you don't seem to like scripture we'll leave it there....

so the "empty claims" you accuse me of, are all supported by evidence and only one of the three was not previously done...by contrast, your claims, which you claim have evidence has not yet been presented and your boast is that you don't want to evidence your claims so we should just take your word for it....sorry, real debate requires evidence...

 

[razzelflabben]

I am sure your optimism about their spirituality and commitment to the Lord and each other warms their hearts .

All things are possible with the Lord.......

that isn't even remotely close to what I was saying, thanks for making it sound so far from what I intended...nice way to give people the benefit of the doubt (sarcasm)

 

[highlife]

Your deception helps prove my point. I denounce lust and then you ask why I say lust is OK? May your lies perish with you.

A strawman. I said the important parts would be mentioned. Speaking on behalf of God is denounced multiple places in the Bible, and your ignorance of that is further evidence that your calling of masturbation a sin is based on hearsay rather than on scripture.

Furthermore, burdening people with unnecessary rules is also specifically denounced in Scripture.

Show there is more harm in masturbating than in not, and then you can claim to use the Golden Rule. What harm does masturbation do that is worse than the proven decrease in prostrate cancer, for example?

Sure. This one I wouldn't expect you to know so I'll quote it for you.
Scripture very specifically says you shouldn't place a burden of extra rules on the new converts. Jesus also condemns the Pharisees for similar.

On every point I make, the Scriptures support me and yet you blather on as if you know what you're talking about with nothing to support what you say and displaying your ignorance of the Scriptures.

lol good call

 

[razzelflabben]

lol good call

you know what...you will be the one who has to answer to God for your own sins, I did my part and showed you from scripture what I have been shown by God. You do with that what you will, but you have been warned....now, since no one will offer a rebuttal of substance, and since no one is willing to support their claims and since no one is willing to let my words stand without trying to manipulate them into something they are not....I grow bored and I will leave you to your Maker and His judgment of your beliefs and actions...it would have been so good and exciting if you had only been brave enough to actually debate the topic, but I can't force you to offer rebuttals and evidence, I can only beg you for them....have happy lives...

 

[highlife]

Wow, really? This is the best argument you have...I showed where I am getting my evidence from, even showed references and still you refuse to show your evidence and somehow that is suppose to make my argument look weak or wrong....wow, you really are not good at this....

So, let's review, after repeated attempts to get you to support the claims that not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] causes physical harm, you still refuse.

In the meantime, I show that not masturbating results in 1. learning self control, a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22-23 2. lack of masturbation results in the emotional health of the partner or potential partner whose self worth suffers as a result of masturbation (see a google search of women suffering, see the OP, and look on this very forum for all the threads dealing with the issue as evidence to the claim) and 3. lack of masturbating causes an increase in self esteem (the only one I did not evidence) so let's find evidence. If one does not touch, it is an exercise in self control and winning that control over self and the flesh this improves self esteem Esteem
and Self-esteem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
we can also look at scripture but since you don't seem to like scripture we'll leave it there....

so the "empty claims" you accuse me of, are all supported by evidence and only one of the three was not previously done...by contrast, your claims, which you claim have evidence has not yet been presented and your boast is that you don't want to evidence your claims so we should just take your word for it....sorry, real debate requires evidence...

The evidence is that it is not called out specificly in scripture, that is the rebuttle. Just becuase there are other things that are also not called out in scripture that are arguably destructive does not correlate to MB being destrucitve. Since it is not specificly called out we are to use our own descernment, and MY desernment says MB is fine, hard drugs are not, you can disagree with that but its just your opinion you have no biblical basis to brow beat me or call into question my faith.

It is simply a non biblical disagreement, the fact that you are trying to make it into a biblical sin debate shows that you possibley have control issues, you know that peoples faith are important to them so if you can wrap your argument in a faith flag you some how think it will give your opinion more credibility, but it doesent, because thoes who love Jesus and their faith are going to simultaniously defend their faith and their freedom.

Now the one area where I think MB is wrong is if you are cheating your spouse out of sexual fulfilment becuase you are getting off on your own, which would be covered in 1 cor. As far as single people or people with prude spouses (who they should be in the process of divorcing anyways) I dont think its a problem.

Also you might want to reread the end of revalations, it says woe to thoes who add to or take away from the bible you will be cursed.

 

[Mayzoo]

that isn't even remotely close to what I was saying, thanks for making it sound so far from what I intended...nice way to give people the benefit of the doubt (sarcasm)

I am sorry I misinterpreted what you intended. Ironic and timely reminder to all how critical individual interpretation of written words is.

What was you intent, if I may ask?

 

[razzelflabben]

The evidence is that it is not called out specificly in scripture, that is the rebuttle. Just becuase there are other things that are also not called out in scripture that are arguably destructive does not correlate to MB being destrucitve. Since it is not specificly called out we are to use our own descernment, and MY desernment says MB is fine, hard drugs are not, you can disagree with that but its just your opinion you have no biblical basis to brow beat me or call into question my faith.

well, you are allowed by scripture to believe whatever you want, and I refuse to take that God given right away from you, so suggesting that I am brow beating you or questioning your faith over this issue is to put it bluntly, flaming.

As to the scriptural stand you take, the problem with your assertion is that 1. it dismisses scriptures that were presented to you without rebuttal and 2. it leaves scripture up to anyone's interpretation (when only the HS interpretation is acceptable according to scripture and
3. a consistent application of your argument leaves things like hard drugs a pure matter of opinion as is porn, kiddie porn, etc.

But as I said, you have the right to any opinion you want, but I would advice you to watch the flaming remarks, they are distasteful and should get you reported.

It is simply a non biblical disagreement, the fact that you are trying to make it into a biblical sin debate shows that you possibley have control issues, you know that peoples faith are important to them so if you can wrap your argument in a faith flag you some how think it will give your opinion more credibility, but it doesent, because thoes who love Jesus and their faith are going to simultaniously defend their faith and their freedom.

wow, you couldn't be further from the truth...in fact, there are many things that I don't find to be specified in scripture and are not clear when it comes to I cor. 13, as in the issue of circumcision and eating of meat, etc. just like Paul said. But masturbation does not fit into that category and that is based on the biblical teaching, a teaching I begged you to challenge so that I was sure I had it right and one you refused to challenge in exchange for false accusations and insults.

Now the one area where I think MB is wrong is if you are cheating your spouse out of sexual fulfilment becuase you are getting off on your own, which would be covered in 1 cor. As far as single people or people with prude spouses (who they should be in the process of divorcing anyways) I dont think its a problem.

so what if you don't know your hurting them or cheating them out of sexual fulfillment, would this also fall under I Cor. 13, or does I Cor. 13 only apply in your view to those things we know are hurting others? IOW's if a spouse is being hurt but doesn't say anything is it less of a sin than if the spouse tries to speak about it and the offending spouse doesn't care or maybe doesn't understand because they can't see how it could hurt....it's all about consistency or argument, when exactly does I Cor 13 apply.

Also you might want to reread the end of revalations, it says woe to thoes who add to or take away from the bible you will be cursed.

since I'm not adding or taking from, and you were challenged to show that I was, it isn't on topic and is more attempts to flame as best I can tell, but, I'm not real good at discerning what is flaming and what is not, so for this post I will simply say that I am looking at such arguments as flamatory and by rules of the forum am forced to report them if they continue. I have never ever questioned your belief, your right to opinion, your character of belief, your right to interpretation, etc. as you have done me here. if you don't want to deal with scripture simply say, "I don't want to deal with scripture" and we will be done with the discussion. To pretend to want to deal with scripture and then refuse to address passages presented, is dishonest.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am sorry I misinterpreted what you intended. Ironic and timely reminder to all how critical individual interpretation of written words is.

What was you intent, if I may ask?

The OP talked about how he was masturbating because they could not have sex (as per scripture) but over the years, in a marriage, there will be other times in which sex is not possible or probable, as in after the birth of a child, when the couple is separated by distance, illness, etc. During those times the issue will arise again and when it does the same old feelings will surface unless the issues surrounding it have indeed been dealt with and healed. IOW's when it comes up again, and it will sooner or later if the cause is not being able to have sex, then the same struggles in the OP will reappear and need dealt with again.

And for all those who want to attack rather than listen (not saying you) it is highly improbable that there will never be a time in marriage when sex cannot be, it is highly probable that children, and/or illness, and/or distance will rule the home at least for a season.

 

[Melethiel]

You made empty claims and we made claims we did not support. The difference is, we can support our claims. Where's your scientific study supporting the claims you made, since you demand a study for our claims?

You made the positive assertion - it is up to you to provide proof. Show the study that says masturbation reduces prostate cancer, because I assure you, I've been in medical school for 3 years now, and have heard nothing about this.

 

[chris4243]

Wow, really? This is the best argument you have...I showed where I am getting my evidence from, even showed references and still you refuse to show your evidence and somehow that is suppose to make my argument look weak or wrong....wow, you really are not good at this....

So, let's review, after repeated attempts to get you to support the claims that not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] causes physical harm, you still refuse.

In the meantime, I show that not masturbating results in 1. learning self control, a fruit of the Spirit Gal. 5:22-23 2. lack of masturbation results in the emotional health of the partner or potential partner whose self worth suffers as a result of masturbation (see a google search of women suffering, see the OP, and look on this very forum for all the threads dealing with the issue as evidence to the claim) and 3. lack of masturbating causes an increase in self esteem (the only one I did not evidence) so let's find evidence. If one does not touch, it is an exercise in self control and winning that control over self and the flesh this improves self esteem Esteem
and Self-esteem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
we can also look at scripture but since you don't seem to like scripture we'll leave it there....

so the "empty claims" you accuse me of, are all supported by evidence and only one of the three was not previously done...by contrast, your claims, which you claim have evidence has not yet been presented and your boast is that you don't want to evidence your claims so we should just take your word for it....sorry, real debate requires evidence...

OK... But how is that different from fasting? You can fast to exercise self-control and increase self-esteem. However, that neither means that you must fast nor that you should never eat. As for your point about the spouse, as I said that depends on what the spouse thinks. Evidence:

I dont know it never really bothers me my hubby does it , sometimes in fact im thankful so he would leave me alone lol

---

So you can't find studies about masturbation and prostrate cancer? Those made the news a while back:
Masturbating may protect against prostate cancer. New Scientist 2003; 16 July
Frequent [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] may protect against cancer New Scientist 2004; 06 April

 

[chris4243]

You made the positive assertion - it is up to you to provide proof. Show the study that says masturbation reduces prostate cancer, because I assure you, I've been in medical school for 3 years now, and have heard nothing about this.

Fair enough. Now I expect people who claim something is a sin to be able to back it up as well, with Scripture.

However, the only bit of relevant Scripture they'll find is the Golden Rule, and then it becomes a matter of science rather than Scripture, which is fine by me but then they need to demonstrate harm instead.

 

[highlife]

well, you are allowed by scripture to believe whatever you want, and I refuse to take that God given right away from you, so suggesting that I am brow beating you or questioning your faith over this issue is to put it bluntly, flaming.

As to the scriptural stand you take, the problem with your assertion is that 1. it dismisses scriptures that were presented to you without rebuttal and 2. it leaves scripture up to anyone's interpretation (when only the HS interpretation is acceptable according to scripture and
3. a consistent application of your argument leaves things like hard drugs a pure matter of opinion as is porn, kiddie porn, etc.

But as I said, you have the right to any opinion you want, but I would advice you to watch the flaming remarks, they are distasteful and should get you reported. wow, you couldn't be further from the truth...in fact, there are many things that I don't find to be specified in scripture and are not clear when it comes to I cor. 13, as in the issue of circumcision and eating of meat, etc. just like Paul said. But masturbation does not fit into that category and that is based on the biblical teaching, a teaching I begged you to challenge so that I was sure I had it right and one you refused to challenge in exchange for false accusations and insults. so what if you don't know your hurting them or cheating them out of sexual fulfillment, would this also fall under I Cor. 13, or does I Cor. 13 only apply in your view to those things we know are hurting others? IOW's if a spouse is being hurt but doesn't say anything is it less of a sin than if the spouse tries to speak about it and the offending spouse doesn't care or maybe doesn't understand because they can't see how it could hurt....it's all about consistency or argument, when exactly does I Cor 13 apply. since I'm not adding or taking from, and you were challenged to show that I was, it isn't on topic and is more attempts to flame as best I can tell, but, I'm not real good at discerning what is flaming and what is not, so for this post I will simply say that I am looking at such arguments as flamatory and by rules of the forum am forced to report them if they continue. I have never ever questioned your belief, your right to opinion, your character of belief, your right to interpretation, etc. as you have done me here. if you don't want to deal with scripture simply say, "I don't want to deal with scripture" and we will be done with the discussion. To pretend to want to deal with scripture and then refuse to address passages presented, is dishonest.

I felt the need to defend myself because you come across in a hostile manner, that your inturpretation of scripture is it and if I disagree with your inturpretations then im intellectually dishonest, thoes things could also be considered flamming. I do not know what HS is in regards to the only correct intrupretation, what ever it is I dont agree with others making inturpretations for me, as NT christians we are priests unto ourselves we dont need a priest dictating things down to us because we are illiterate peasants. You come off as self righous and condeming so you should expect pointed stern replys because most intellegent people dont like being talked down to. If you dont like someones rebuttle then fine, you agree to disagree but you dont keep brow beating them that what they are doing is sin since it is not explicitly writen anywhere.

Now as for your 1 cor 13 angle, I feel that MB is never nessicary in a happy marriage where a couple is able to come together (ie there is not some work travel issue or military deployment). My whole debate has been MB from a single persons stand point or an unhappy marriage (that is likely leading to divorce anyways). If you MB when you have a happy spouse who is willing to do what ever you need in bed then it is wrong, but only then.

Now you can say this is a non argument bunk rebuttle and im all wet and thats fine but dont keep insisting that single people that MB are living in sin because you cant really prove it, if there is even a .0001% chance that its not sin you should not be teaching it as sin. There are enough sins that are specificly called out, make sure to start with thoes when teaching new christians and dont drag them down into the minucha of MB and porn debates.

I am not threatened by such debates but I fear for new christians who are nieve and are having the MB debate forced down their throats otherwise they are told they are living in sin.