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My husband has studied both Hebrew and Greek and has done the word study and says your wrong, I also challenged you to show this understanding in scripture so I could refute it with scripture....you refused the challenge and argue what you do not evidence, meaning your argument basically is "cause I say so" I have very little respect for that type argument, until or unless you bring something of substance to the table, have a great day....
well, sin is anything that is not love and masturbation is not love, whereas, fasting is, so again, your wrong according to scripture..oh, and btw, for the record, fasting is a means of focusing one's attention on God not self, it's a purposed activity to exercise humility and focus not self control, but, hey, your wrong no matter how you look at it.
Self control is self control, we can learn some self control over anything and everything in our lives, but that isn't the kind of self control we are talking about. The self control we are talking about isn't leaving the M&M's on the table and walking away, we are talking about dieing to self, allowing the HS to live within us. We are talking about yielding control of ourselves over to the HS so that He can do amazing miracles within our lives thus demonstrating His power and love. Leave the M&M's that's cool, but learning self control is a means of overcoming sin (flesh) so that the Spirit within can live...that is why they could never be the same, because fasting is of the Spirit and the Spirit is what we want to see, not the flesh...
and then the future partner is part of the equasion, as is lust and the likelihood of addiction....even if you manage to avoid all these sin issues, you are "lucky" and testing God by allowing yourself to be tempted, neither of which is really in line with scripture.
no more than a bad hair day or road rage...shall we make everyone shave their heads and get rid of vehicles?
as far as an F on a test, or a mean neighbor, shall we ban tests and neighbors?
no, anger is not a sin, anger that is not controlled is a sin....do the study, it's interesting, even God gets angry, but that anger is always under control...but wait, there is that self control issue again...opps, how could God just keep slipping it in on us like that....maybe there could be something to it?
who cares! My kids get up grumpy sometimes and I still love them and tolerate them, my husband sometimes is grumpy and we are still in love. Sometimes I'm grumpy but I am still forgiven...heck, sometimes the mailman is grumpy but I still get my mail. You seem grumpy most of the time at least on this thread, and we still are here talking, shall we speculate as to why your so grumpy here all the time? Na, I'll take the high road there.
this is one and only one reference to sexual immorality, you claim is that it is always tied to these practices, to evidence your claim you will have to show all the passages making such references...with a simple concordance look the NIV provides 23 references, how about if you show Matt 5:32 where we are talking about married people not temple prostitutes, or Matt. 15:19 where it is coupled with things like theft and slander, certainly these things aren't limited to the pagen worshipers sex orgies....evidence your claim....
He actually studied in an accredited seminary with some very well studied biblical scholars and is continuing his studies. In addition God has gifted him with the gift of knowledge and so I'll let his creditials trump your attempt to proof study one word....in fact, proof study often leads to false assumptions and false teaching and dare I remind you what God thinks of such? It is always wise to study as if you don't know the answer than to study to "to learn that it does not mean what modern churchs want it to mean" this dear one is proof study and is a dangerous road to travel.
The overlying theme here is prostitution[/quote] the overlying theme is Christ and the Church, read it for what it says, don't try to proof text it...as I said, proof texting is dangerous business when it comes to God.
So now your trying to claim that coarse joking, greed, etc. are idolatry, please show that evidence, feel free to use you vast greek knowledge on that one...point being, this is all about spiritual nature, iow's what this is in God's eyes, it is putting self above God which is without doubt idolatry...what you fail to do however is to show "sexual immorality" to be temple prostitutes...and btw, I notice you have refused to talk about the two passages I challenged you to look at...nice slight of hand, but I see what your doing anyway, your picking and choosing passages you think you can manipulate and your not even doing that well. Let's look at the rest of your post...
well, first off, we are referring to "sexual immorality" which is a different word, but secondly, let's look at debauchery as it is stated, not with your commentary...the NIV says "arrogance and disorder"...strongs lists the word as turmults, the strongs lexicon defines the word as "
wow, this is awesome, it evidences what I have been telling you but your using it to try to disagree with me....look at the part I highlighted above....notice that that self control you hate so much is exactly what scripture tells us to do...As to vs. 5, your highlighted part, how many heathens do you think control their sexual masturbations and the thoughts that go along with it? That's right, even in the world today, people try to justify their sexual thoughts and desires and make excuses for them to be good rather than the evil this verse tells us they are...also notice vs. 8, strong words for those who proof text scripture....
So you really think that pagans don't touch? Wow, you really need to rethink that....
well, obviously idoratry is evil, but let's look at the word witchcraft, actually my husband just did a word study on the word it really means drug use especially the drugs that are used in pagan worship (among them would be pot, just for the record) the word was translated witchcraft because in that day, witches were the ones who used such drugs. and again, we are back to the point you are trying to justify that sexual immorality is orgies and prostitution and you fail, let's again look at strongs lexicon....(shows issues of translation difficulties) fornication-
well, basically you are right but you fail to show (in accordance with your claim) that sexual immorality always means prostitution and orgies, in fact, let's look at the lexicon again and notice the highlighted word....
that is not what it says, dear one, your proof texting again.
wow, I don't know where your getting any of this...woman withholding sex? I have yet to hear of any church that preaches doing this...in fact, the only place I have ever heard of this is tv. Are you confusing TV and real life? You seem really confused as to the claim you made and what is required to evidence it...in fact, non of this even remotely applies to this passage.
again witchcraft and magic arts is related to drug use, and so again you show your lack of understanding and study of the topic....whormonger here (KJV) really means
again, off the claim you are suppose to be evidencing and again without understanding of what it really says.
it's interesting that this long post and not one passage evidences your claim, it is also interesting that you equate in several of these passages porn with masturbation....both of which almost if not always involve lust on some level which scripture specifies to be sin....
yep so you can see above how you still lack evidence to your claim
so, according to you, theft, false testimony and slander are equivalent to sexual orgies, prostitution, porn and kiddie porn...man are you in trouble...you have on this thread alone bore false witness and slandered my character....sins that you equate to prostitution, idol worship, porn and kiddie porn...seems to me you have a lot of repenting to do and maybe some jail time...
Your claim was that sexual immorality meant orgies and prostitution in every instance of it in the bible. You were asked to evidence that since from my study that is false. Your offered passages that showed you to be wrong, you were shown through translation (lexicon) to be wrong, etc. and all you can do is claim that if you are wrong it is because anyone who disagrees with you is a naive Christian, easily influanced by bogus arguments and phony cridentials....wow, that is a very sad view of your fellow brothers and sisters especially those that take time to study the word as God instructed and consider what it says with care....
nor did I suggest it was...what I was and am saying is that there is nothing that indicates that sexual immorality is only orgies and prostitution. I further suggest that where masturbation is not specified in scripture (note that I freely admit that it is not specifically mentioned) when we couple masturbation with the heart of the law (love, we went into the previously) it comes back as sin which would include it in sexual immorality....iow's where there is never provided a complete list of what sexual immorality is, the template we have for what sin is (love) shows masturbation to be included in that list.
I didn't suggest that either, what I suggested is that few if anyone can touch without some form of lust.
thus the highlighted part and the argument I am making here, the other comments are related to other parts of the discussion.
eating and sleeping are vital to survival, thus not in the same discription at all with masturbation. As to excess, that is a different matter. It's about comparing apples to apples not apples to oranges and until someone presents a medical research paper that shows that not masturbating will kill you, your trying to compare apples to oranges with an argument about eating and sleeping..
sin yes, of debauchery, not, not according the to meaning intended
see above, your not comparing apples to apples...which btw, given this newest argument, are you then saying that excessive masturbation is sin?
So you don't really know what the strongs lexicon is, you could just simply say, I don't know what that is. Strongs is a concordance in which every word used is referred back to the original greek or hebrew word. That original word is defined in the lexicon. IOW's the lexicon tells us how the given word should be translated. It gives no meaning other than what the original word really means. Of that list, the translators choose a word they think fits, but the lexicon "defines it"
what ever, etc. means it is not the totality of the list, see above.
wow, that is way way way off from what I said....reread it and try again.
so you really think rubbing your neighbor so he gets off is the same thing as loving yourself? Wow we have a lot of work ahead of us in your understanding of what Biblical love really is....
That is part of it, but it also fails the love test without lust, so there are two ways it fails.
right, which is why scripture gives us a template by which to determine the things not specified in scripture...(I provided passages for this and no one offered any rebuttal and when asked for an alternate possible meaning, it was refused) When we place masturbation on that template it comes back as sin...
not even sure what you think here, lack of sleep will kill you, lack of food will kill you, not breathing will kills you, do I really need to find medical research to evidence this to you, when we stop sleeping we go crazy then die, when we stop eating we have all kinds of things happen, then over time we die. These are basic common understandings that even elementary children know, and your trying to argue it? What do you think you gain from this type argument? Hint: Nothing except looking silly.
wow, okay, so according to you, masturbation is fine but excessive masturbation is sin...now much then is excessive in your opinion and if it has to be specified in scripture to qualify as sin, where is that specified in scripture?
If you really believe I am trying to force something, then show another viable interpretation and/or a contridictory scripture reference...in fact, I would greatly love you to prove me wrong, because the understanding I have is a very hard row to hoe, and I would love it to be easier....
well, not totally right, but not far off either...we are told in scripture to dress modestly, (women anyway) but modesty is not well defined, that is the real problem...
where this has some historical interest, it lacks all understanding of scripture which is what we are suppose to be talking about here, not what the church or history says, but rather what God and His word says...changing the topic will NOT make your case any stronger...
again, the only OPINION that matters is God's all else is just man and not very reliable when it comes to truth.
so, I'm guessing this last bit is your attempt to criticize scripture when it tells us that love sums up all the law and prophets and yet when asked to provide a passage that counters or a viable alternate interpretation, you hid behind comment like this instead of just providing evidence to your claims...you tried this same technique with your claims that not [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] would cause medical harm...your refusal to provide these evidences tell me that you are making baseless claims for the purpose of justification and we would be well adviced to assume everything you say is simply your opinion based on your bias and nothing more. Have a great day...
okay, let's pretend your right....summarize for me your revised interpretation of Matthew 22:40, just sum up the argument that I am missing....what does scripture mean when it says that love sums up all the law and prophets if it doesn't mean that the root, the purpose, the conclusion, the reason for all the Law and prophets is love...(biblical love) I have been anxiously waiting for the response and in my excitement I guess I missed it...a summary and referral to the post I missed would be sufficient...thanks....I know you are more interested in communication than avoiding providing evidence your can't....
fair enough, but you didn't even attempt the one's I requested you address and every one you did address said you are wrong, so how does that help you make your point?
wow, try bible gateway, their list is much better than the one you found apparently.
the law is no burden, scripture says....I John 5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,...being scripture tells us the law is not burdensome, it would then follow that this scripture you refer to cannot possibly be referring to the law, in fact, when we study it we see that it is indeed referring to....this is a call, a plea to the unsaved to come to Christ....has nothing to do with the believer and the law....
wow, I know quite a lot of young males who are then doing the impossible in the power and might of the HS within...how awesome is our God...but that then comes back to a previous point, one in which the HS is the one who is said in Gal. 5 to give us self control. So if you are trying to not use porn and touch on your own, you most likely will fail, but when we try to do it in the power and might of the living God, we can and will succeed. IOW's that self control needed to be without sin, requires us to die to self and be alive in Christ. It is the HS within that allows us to be without sin, all sin, all kinds of sin and without that power from the HS we are still nothing more than sinners, continually crucifying our Lord, and calling it good because we don't want to yield our lives completely to Him, we don't really believe He is the living God, we don't really believe He loves us with a pure undefiled love, we don't really trust Him at all. What an amazing and awesome truth you have led us to in this discussion...now to just get people to understand that God is indeed that big, that loving, that trustworthy, that powerful.
there is no shame in love, iow's when Jesus is doing it, as mentioned above, all shame is gone, we are human being striving to please our Maker and nothing more...there is honor in that even when we fall. In fact, shame is a symptom of unrepented sin and death.
What burden? The burden is no greater than it is with any sin...this is the problem with your assertions...you don't understand that sin isn't our burden, our sin, our shame was nailed to the cross of our Savior and Lord. Look at it this way. Some people "suffer" with the temptation to get drunk, some the temptation to have an affair, some to do drugs, some to murder, but the only time these temptations are "burdens" is when we try to stop them on our own, without the love, forgiveness, and power of the HS within. The burden of sin was already nailed to the cross, the shame of sin was hung there as well. That is why sin isn't burdensome according to scripture, because it's burden, it's shame is already gone when we accept God's gift of salvation...now, that does not mean that we won't struggle, struggle is part of life, but our sin is not longer condemning us, it is in fact no longer ours. I would refer you to Isiah 53 to begin with and a host of other passages after that.
wow, you are missing so much....sex is a blessing, righteousness is a blessing, relationship is a blessing, so is truth, understanding, and knowledge, but sin is never a blessing, victory over sin always is.
