Why are atheists considered to be so dishonest?

[BleedingHeart]

Hi BleedingHeart, nice to meet you. It's not so much what an atheist believes that bothers me as a "theist", but that the opinionated ones actively encourage other people to rebel against their maker.
I don't see how skepticism and doubt is a form of rebellion.

Clearly they all have problems with accepting Him for who He is (and strictly speaking, even the majority of "theists" could be described like this),
Of course. Why should I or anyone else accept the existence of something not proven to exist?

but it's not fair to lead others into the same snare that will ultimately put you at odds with the one who has consistently granted our existence.
That hasn't been proven either.
Even if it were true, so what? My parents granted me my existence, but they are never going to have my blind faith or absolute obedience no matter what. Ever.

What you don't seem to acknowledge is that our Lord apparently doesn't want us to love Him for the way He looks or however we might like Him to tickle our fancy, but for who He is as a person.
Looks has nothing to do with it. It's about being concrete, tangible, observable.

I think it is better that we love Him for everything we need in a father - things like wisdom, righteousness, justice, grace, strength.
A nice thought, but it wasn't him that changed my diaper as a kid.

That means that if we want to know Him for the person He is, we need to be listening to what He says and respecting Him instead of looking for excuses to justify why we choose to ignore Him.
My ears are peeled. And there's just the rush of the air conditioner.


I know it's not your thread, and rules prevent you from posting, but from what you said here I have just two questions for you:

Why is it that you don't believe He really did come to Moses as a burning bush and lead Israel out of Egypt?
Why don't you believe that Odd Thomas saw a ghost being pulled through a mirror/portal by the devil?
Because it sounds like something Dean Koontz might write (in his late period, that is). It's magic (though I don't think a believer would admit it as such), and I don't believe in magic. Not until I see it.


At what point do you decide that the Bible is not worth reading in context of learning about the potter who made the jars?
Because it's really just a claim as to the potter. I could just as easily make up a book about the Tyrone the Epic Unicorn God and say that was the Truth.

It might be better to PM me or link me to another thread where we can discuss this with respect to forum rules and the OP.

Sure.

 

[JGG]

Hi! Christian behavior needs to see no human being as an enemy. If you need proof of that from our own teachings I can furnish that, but for now I'll assume you would rather be spared the quotes.

Even if Christian behaviour needs to see no human enemy, human behaviour does. Us vs. them, and the ingroup vs. the outgroup, the righteous vs. the wicked.

Does that mean that C's have not tortured, maimed and killed other devout and Faithful C's, over petty squabbles? Does that mean C's don't treat people wrongly, w/ either no good reason or reasons that really aren't good? Does that mean that repentance flips some switch on the back of our head that insures we never sin again?

Of course not. But perhaps if you were armed with the knowledge that the only flesh a C wrestles with is their own, you might be more effective in the types of interactions you seem to be complaining about in your OP. (Btw, my statement here does not address a C fulfilling duties as a soldier)

The study I presented earlier, found here, says that the anti-atheist mentality is not a mere lapse of judgment, or lack of awareness, but a persistent negative belief of a group of people, which is defended by its adherents. In a shorter word: "hate." And this is the majority of people in a nation that self-identifies as a "Christian Nation." This isn't simply weak flesh. This is being taught. It is part of a belief system.

Again, I'm going back to my Star Trek buddy. I am not getting involved in the battle of whether Kirk is better than Picarde, and I'm not going to lecture a Trekkie on dark matter energy sources (even if I knew of such things, which I don't). I'm not a Trekkie, and I'm not a Christian. I am not going to lecture these people on their belief. When we start criticizing Christian actions or attitudes using the Bible, we're accused of mocking them, or undermining their faith. Afterall, they don't follow the Bible, they follow what their preacher teaches them about the Bible.

Ok, so we live in a society that has advanced past the need for basic moral instruction. Do you not realize the Bible itself has been foundational to the process? I really don't see how you could miss that, unless you've allowed the historic revisionism of our current educational system(s) to somehow convince you that books written about our founding era are more valid than what our FF's themselves said. which is all available at your County seat, in the Law library.

Not only that, the Bible directly contributed the beliefs and principles of the Enlightenment Age, spearheaded by Sir Isaac Newton which lead to our present boom of Scientific discovery, as well as modern atheism. In fact, Newton himself is often credited as the Grandfather of modern atheism as he was the one who declared that we should be able to find scientific evidence of God.

I can say that the Bible all influenced these men. But ultimately the core principles are hardly unique to Christianity or the Bible. The golden rule is also a part of the Baghavad Gita, the Book of the Dead, the Tao te Ching, and are found in ancient Egyptian, Indian, and Native Indian relics. Honoring God, and choosing God is reflected in ancient Roman beliefs. The principles of democracy and freedom are lifted directly from the ancient Greeks. Even Newton's search for knowledge, which was brought about by his search for God, is found in the teachings of Plato, Socrates, Hippocrates, and others.

These aren't principles that were discovered in the Bible, or in Christianity. These are principles that reflected a period of greater philosophical understanding, and awareness of morality among mankind. The Bible merely reflects values, ideals, and ideas, it does not bear absolute truth.

So I can say that I accept that the Bible reflects some positive ideals, and values, but I don't have to give it any more value than the Harry Potter series, the Baghavad Gita, the Tao te Ching, the Harry Potter Series, or the Lord of the Rings. All of which reflect some positive ideals and values.

But I'm not going to look at the events at the Bible and take them as literal truth, just as I do not for the Baghavad Gita, the Tao te Ching (not a great example), Harry Potter, or the Lord of the Rings.

While I can't agree with that, the important point here is you seem to have a faulty notion that C is following directions in a book.

It's not. (Just so you know) That's legalism, which stops C dead in it's tracks.

Well, no. What I said is that Christians are following the directions, and teachings of their preachers, who can twist the Bible to justify pretty much anything. And before you say "they're not true Christians!" I will pre-counter with "Kirk and Picarde."

But then perhaps you'd answer the question I posed. Taking the holy books out of the equation, how would you demonstrate that your knowledge of God is superior to that of a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Mormon or Scientologist? For that matter, how would you demonstrate that your knowledge of God is superior to mine?

No, I don't think we actually agree. I'm claiming that I cannot fault God with anything because I cannot know that God exists. It's like blaming Santa Claus for not bringing me a Christmas gift this year.

I understand your mindset here very well, but Spirit does not co-operate with our test tubes, labs, or other repeatable experiments. Different rules apply. At the same time, my "proof," has limited (or no) value to you. I do accept that and actually, all across CF I see more C's accepting this simple wisdom.

But then Christians are not allowed to get upset at us because we do not believe. And to answer your likely follow-up statement: Yes. Look at my signature to see what they think of us. Look at the link above to see how far that spreads.

I think your interaction w/ believers can do a lot of good, for what it's worth. And while the phrase "Jesus Loves you" meant approx nothing to me for over 10 years of being radically saved - Jesus Loves you, and so do I.

But you know what? I don't interpret that phrase the way you do. I think that's something Christians say because they are commanded to say it. Christians seem to love others, like a miser loves money. It's a commodity that gets you what you want.

I'm sorry, but I have never seen any indication of anything else. Those guys in my signature, I challenged a few of them, and oh, the love atheists, we're just the enemy of their God. And Shirley Phelps-Roper? She loves gays. She just claims that God hates them.

So, whenever a Christian claims to love everyone because he is commanded to, I call shenanigans.

 

[razeontherock]

Even if Christian behaviour needs to see no human enemy, human behaviour does. Us vs. them, and the ingroup vs. the outgroup, the righteous vs. the wicked.

This is the type of human behavior that Christianity saves the person from. This distinction answers one of your basic questions here: how is a Christian's knowledge based on a superior revelation of G-d (not their Preacher) demonstrated?

The problem is you see believers at all stages of growth, but never at a stage of completion.

The study I presented earlier, found here, says that the anti-atheist mentality is not a mere lapse of judgment, or lack of awareness, but a persistent negative belief of a group of people, which is defended by its adherents. In a shorter word: "hate." And this is the majority of people in a nation that self-identifies as a "Christian Nation." This isn't simply weak flesh. This is being taught. It is part of a belief system.

Please re-examine your logic: you're saying because somebody teaches this somewhere, it is "Christian teaching" and perhaps even majority? I reject that at it's face. I re-assert you would do well to arm yourself with knowledge, be a bit assertive with these types when you're so unfortunate as to encounter them, and probably do so as you disengage from them. Simply saying "bye hater" may do more good than you realize.

Not only that, the Bible directly contributed the beliefs and principles of the Enlightenment Age,

Glad you recognize that.

ultimately the core principles are hardly unique to Christianity or the Bible. The golden rule is also a part of the Baghavad Gita, the Book of the Dead, the Tao te Ching, and are found in ancient Egyptian, Indian, and Native Indian relics. Honoring God, and choosing God is reflected in ancient Roman beliefs. The principles of democracy and freedom are lifted directly from the ancient Greeks.

These aren't principles that were discovered in the Bible, or in Christianity.

So I can say that I accept that the Bible reflects some positive ideals

I really don't see any disagreement here. Should that surprise you?

The Bible tells us G-d has spoken to different men in various places, and that they should haply feel after Him. You are witnessing to proof of this fact.

Look at my signature to see what they think of us. Look at the link above to see how far that spreads.

I read that quite some time ago. I can guarantee you people around me won't be thinking that way for long!

whenever a Christian claims to love everyone because he is commanded to, I call shenanigans.

IOW - you don't know the Love of G-d. Yes, I realize that. I'd be surprised if I have any higher function than to simply tell you it exists.

 

[oi_antz]

My ears are peeled.

You don't seem to seriously mean that, because you just as soon said this:

Because it's [the Bible] really just a claim as to the potter. I could just as easily make up a book about the Tyrone the Epic Unicorn God and say that was the Truth.

I think if your ears were peeled, you'd see that this is the potter actually making claims through His pots, and even saying things that the pots might not like to be told by the potter.

What makes you lie like this?

 

[JGG]

This is the type of human behavior that Christianity saves the person from.

Clearly it doesn't. Let me make a case for you using the "Christian Nation" of America as a model. Take for instance, this study, which finds that for some reason there is a positive correlation between the religiosity of a state, and the number of hate groups in that state. It particularly found that the rate of hate groups per capita is consistently highest in the so-called "Bible Belt." Now, I'm not actually suggesting that Christianity causes these groups, it is merely a correlation. However, what we do know based on this is that Christianity is certainly not preventing the "us vs. them" mentality in these states. It isn't saving anyone from it, any more than not being a Christian saves them from it. If that were true, we should see a negative correlation.

I'm sorry, I have to reject the premise that Christianity saves people from hate. All evidence to the contrary.

This distinction answers one of your basic questions here: how is a Christian's knowledge based on a superior revelation of G-d (not their Preacher) demonstrated?

So if such a distinction does not actually exist, what have you demonstrated?

The problem is you see believers at all stages of growth, but never at a stage of completion.

Again, if that were true we should still see a negative correlation between religiosity and hate. There are two reasons for this: (1) By your reasoning those who value their faith more, should have less of an "us vs. them" view.
(2) As more Christians continue their stages of growth, we should see less people who hold an "us vs. them."

Again, this does not seem to be the case.

Please re-examine your logic: you're saying because somebody teaches this somewhere, it is "Christian teaching" and perhaps even majority? I reject that at it's face.

I didn't say that. I said it was being taught, and that it was part of a belief system.

I read that quite some time ago. I can guarantee you people around me won't be thinking that way for long!

How do you figure?

 

[oi_antz]

Afterall, they don't follow the Bible, they follow what their preacher teaches them about the Bible.

Did you realize that God Himself is against that?

Isaiah 29:13-14 (New International Version, ©2010)

13 The Lord says:

“These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is based on merely human rules they have been taught.[a]
14 Therefore once more I will astound these people
with wonder upon wonder;
the wisdom of the wise will perish,
the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish.”

Now, I know this is addressed to Jerusalem, but this does show us a glimpse of how our maker would like us to treat the matter - more about getting to know what He thinks, and less about listening to what someone else tells us (be they physical or spiritual influences).

I'm sorry to ignore your response to my post, I've seen those types of conversations explode into arguments, so I'll just keep an eye out for the odd opportunity to contribute. If there is something so important to you that requires my response, please let me know, but from what I can see you're not really asking for a response, rather just explaining why you don't agree with what I've said.

 

[BleedingHeart]

You don't seem to seriously mean that, because you just as soon said this:

I think if your ears were peeled, you'd see that this is the potter actually making claims through His pots, and even saying things that the pots might not like to be told by the potter.

Oh I get that notion. I'm just not convinced that it is true.

What makes you lie like this?

If you're going to fall into the far-too-common theistic tactic of calling me a liar, like that eastern orthodox guy a few pages back, this is going to be a very short conversation.

 

[razeontherock]

Clearly it doesn't. Let me make a case for you using the "Christian Nation" of America as a model.

That model doesn't work, because US is not a Christian Nation. In fact the only model of Christianity is Christ.

correlation between the religiosity of a state

I realize you're not a Christian and don't care to know anything about it, but can't you see the problem with this phrase, and the type of thinking it represents? States don't have religion. Even in a State-sponsored religion which is outlawed in the US, people make their own choices. Even if it kills them.

what we do know based on this is that Christianity is certainly not preventing the "us vs. them" mentality in these states.

This is no basis.

(2) As more Christians continue their stages of growth, we should see less people who hold an "us vs. them."

Again, this does not seem to be the case.

You have no basis for knowing this, because your vision is clouded by considering whole States at a time. A State is not a person.

 

[JGG]

That model doesn't work, because US is not a Christian Nation. In fact the only model of Christianity is Christ.

It doesn't matter. Christians claim it is, and that's sort of my point. I know you want to keep telling me that Kirk's Star Trek is the real Star Trek, but that's not for me to decide.

I realize you're not a Christian and don't care to know anything about it, but can't you see the problem with this phrase, and the type of thinking it represents? States don't have religion. Even in a State-sponsored religion which is outlawed in the US, people make their own choices. Even if it kills them.

No, but the people who live within those states do have religion, they are more religious that those people within other states, and they have more hate groups that those states with less religion. We just look at the social trends within each state. And compared those trends to other states. Those states with citizens who are more religious vs. those states with citizens who are less religious.

This is no basis.

What basis would you prefer? Keep in mind, that I clearly do not take it on faith that Christianity somehow prevents hate. The evidence suggests that it does not.

You have no basis for knowing this, because your vision is clouded by considering whole States at a time. A State is not a person.

But a state is even better because it's a group of individuals! So we look at the most religious states, and we see whether they are more, or less prone to hate. But to be fair, let us consider this met-analysis study of 55 prior studies (which requires subscription, but there is a summary) which does not look at states. It deals with the correlation between religiosity, and racism. Not surprisingly, what it finds is that those with stronger religious convictions (in this case predominently Christian) are more likely to discriminate against those who are different than they are (minorities), than those with weaker, or no religious convictions.

I have read numerous other studies which basically come to the same conclusion, in other ways: There is a correlation between religiosity and hate in our society. And frankly, I think if we were to look at other societies we would find an even stronger correlation.

There is one study I've found that suggests that the actual correlation is marginal, but what's important is that not a single study seems to suggest that religiosity prevents hate.

Again, in the very least this shows that Christianity does not save people from the "us vs. them" mentality.

Did you realize that God Himself is against that?

Now, I know this is addressed to Jerusalem, but this does show us a glimpse of how our maker would like us to treat the matter - more about getting to know what He thinks, and less about listening to what someone else tells us (be they physical or spiritual influences).

Well firstly, it seems to me that the very people you would say are only following "human rules they have been taught," are very likely to throw this same verse back at you claiming that you are not following God correctly. Kirk vs. Picard. It's not for me to decide.

Secondly, it's not a matter of God being against it. I believe that people primarily create their own God to follow. I don't honestly think God is for, or against anything, people only claim God is.

Lastly, wouldn't God be considered a spiritual influence?[/QUOTE]

 

[oi_antz]

If you're going to fall into the far-too-common theistic tactic of calling me a liar, like that eastern orthodox guy a few pages back, this is going to be a very short conversation.

That is how I would like it if you are just going to tell me things that you know aren't true.

 

[razeontherock]

.

 

[oi_antz]

Well firstly, it seems to me that the very people you would say are only following "human rules they have been taught," are very likely to throw this same verse back at you claiming that you are not following God correctly. Kirk vs. Picard. It's not for me to decide.

I thought briefly about this, but I don't agree. I mean, you will know within yourself what this verse means to you and in my opinion the Bible isn't mean to be used to insult people but to enlighten them. In this case, I am showing you something that God has said that confirms what you seem to have already understood to be true.

Secondly, it's not a matter of God being against it. I believe that people primarily create their own God to follow. I don't honestly think God is for, or against anything, people only claim God is.

Actually, according to what God says in this verse, He does appear to be against rote faith.

Lastly, wouldn't God be considered a spiritual influence?

Yes, and the question we face when we read His Word, is would we rather listen to what He says or what someone else says?

 

[GodSeeker1]

I've been spending the past while, trying to feel out Christianity's impression of atheists (the people, not the belief system). The most common impression that believers seem to have of atheists is that we are somehow inherently dishonest, and prone to lying and manipulation.

What is this accusation based on? I have my theories, but I'm curious as to where you suppose this line of thought comes from?

I had been an Athiest before and I know what it is like, myself. I followed my own set of beliefs and then again, didn't really believe in anything particular. I just took each step at a time, following what I thought was right, for myself. Eventually, I became curious and wanted to find God for myself, and I was so curious that I tried all sorts of things, even dumb ones. It seemed like I had tried almost everything, except following God (Jesus) by using my own faith. Because I didn't believe in faith or knew how it really worked, I was not able to see God working in my heart, soul, and life. One day, I built up enough guts to leap into faith and I got to find Jesus Christ, who I did find really IS God. Now I follow Jesus with all of my heart, and will follow God's plan. I choose to follow Jesus, and now all of my worries and stress related matters are becoming a thing of my past. I still deal with some issues, because everyday I am learning something new, but these issues are becoming smaller and smaller by the days. This life is more than just a fallacy, we have got to make our choices quick and if follow Jesus, we will begin to see how God is working in our lives. It takes patience and God will test you to see how faithful you really are. Jesus loves you and wants to show what an amazing God He really is. God will guide your soul into the right direction if you put all of your faith in Him who lives, Jesus Christ.
God bless you!!!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

.

Morse code?

 

[JGG]

I had been an Athiest before and I know what it is like, myself. I followed my own set of beliefs and then again, didn't really believe in anything particular. I just took each step at a time, following what I thought was right, for myself. Eventually, I became curious and wanted to find God for myself, and I was so curious that I tried all sorts of things, even dumb ones. It seemed like I had tried almost everything, except following God (Jesus) by using my own faith. Because I didn't believe in faith or knew how it really worked, I was not able to see God working in my heart, soul, and life. One day, I built up enough guts to leap into faith and I got to find Jesus Christ, who I did find really IS God. Now I follow Jesus with all of my heart, and will follow God's plan. I choose to follow Jesus, and now all of my worries and stress related matters are becoming a thing of my past. I still deal with some issues, because everyday I am learning something new, but these issues are becoming smaller and smaller by the days. This life is more than just a fallacy, we have got to make our choices quick and if follow Jesus, we will begin to see how God is working in our lives. It takes patience and God will test you to see how faithful you really are. Jesus loves you and wants to show what an amazing God He really is. God will guide your soul into the right direction if you put all of your faith in Him who lives, Jesus Christ.
God bless you!!!

This is in response to my question?

 

[paul becke]

The militant atheists seek to build a fantasy world and to impose it on society. By implication, they sneer at the metaphysical beliefs of the greatest scientists of our age, namely, that our world was designed by a spirit of extraordinary intelligence - well, Planck, Bohr and Godel were Lutheran Christians. Einstein was an agnostic, but here's what he had to say:

"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books—-a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects."

"There is no logical way to the discovery of elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind the appearance."

"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."

"The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."

 

[DomainRider]

So if a few militant atheists want to impose a fantasy world (do they really, or do they just want to persuade people to stop believing in God/religion?), that justifies unchristian treatment of all atheists? A few Islamic extremists bomb cities, so all Muslims become fair game? A few militant Christians shoot abortion doctors so all Christians should be abhorred? Really? Sounds like an irrational counsel of hate. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Quote mining can be used to support whatever view you like - for example, Einstein was, in fact, pretty scathing about God and organised religion - in a letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, he wrote:

The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.

 

[MattRose]

When I was a kid I first heard about Madalyn Murray O'Hair (O'Hair is the correct spelling apparently). She was considered the most hated woman in America according to Time magazine in 1964 and she was the face of atheism. Read her Wikipedia entry. You'll be shocked at how she lived and the things she did. She was undoubtedly evil, even by my atheist standards (we atheists tolerate evil more so than non-atheists, or so I'm told). She was also butt-ugly, cursed like a sailor, and seemed to hate the world. Although she may have furthered the atheist agenda, she also implanted in the public's mind the perfect image for how an atheist looked and behaved. In other words, she was the best example christians have ever found for what happens to someone when they embrace atheism. Christians could not have been more fortunate than to have Ms. O'Hair against them (divine intervention?).

Ms. O'Hair is the image the last generation had of atheists. Is it any wonder that atheists are considered bad people? Only in the last decade or so have we begun to show that old Maddy didn't speak for us and certainly is not representative of what we believe. Through our works we shall be known.

 

[DomainRider]

...
Ms. O'Hair is the image the last generation had of atheists. Is it any wonder that atheists are considered bad people?

It seems quite irrational to me. If some unpleasant publicity seeking lunatic sets up an organisation claiming to represent Americans who don't drive cars, would you then expect most car drivers to consider non-drivers bad people? Maybe it's just 'human nature', but a little thought or understanding doesn't seem a lot to expect, particularly from people who profess to espouse Christian values. Is it any wonder some atheists feel the need to speak out?

 

[MattRose]

It seems quite irrational to me. If some unpleasant publicity seeking lunatic sets up an organisation claiming to represent Americans who don't drive cars, would you then expect most car drivers to consider non-drivers bad people? Maybe it's just 'human nature', but a little thought or understanding doesn't seem a lot to expect, particularly from people who profess to espouse Christian values. Is it any wonder some atheists feel the need to speak out?

I hear what you're saying, but your analogy only works part way. In the 1960's Americans knew there were atheists hidden among them, like commies (or perhaps as commies is more accurate). An atheist in America (before 1980) who publicly admitted his views, was asking for a punch in the nose (if he was lucky). Ms. O'Hair didn't have a reputation to sully and hardly anyone was brave enough to stand with her. To be fair, there were others, but who can name another famous atheist from that era? Face it, we got off to a terrible start. The first major contribution an atheist in America is known for was removing prayer from schools! Talk about kicking over the anthill. I'm starting to hate those atheists too!