My Apple Challenge

[tanzanos]

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[AV1611VET]

If you ever come to Greece I will be happy to show you around.

Why thank you! I'll keep that in mind!

Just out of curiosity, which one are you in that picture?

The one on the left or the one on the right?

 

[Belk]

Guys, do I derail your threads?

Your kidding , right? Yes AV, you derail threads with great frequency and ferver.

 

[tanzanos]

.........

 

[AV1611VET]

Neither; The one with the sunglasses is my nephew and the other is my son!

LOL -- ooookay -- thanks for the 411.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Guys, do I derail your threads?

We can give as good as we get.

And yes, funny video Tanzanos.

 

[lucaspa]

I create an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.

What evidence would you use to convince your friend I did this?

There are a couple of ways.

1. The created apple would have no seeds. After all, you are creating this apple to demonstrate you can create an apple ex nihilo. There is no need for it to have seeds.

2. Cut an apple in half vertically. Notice that there is a line around the seeds in the center. This arises from the growth of the apple on the tree. The ex nihilo apple did not go through the growth process, did it? So it should have no line. The absence of the line could be used as evidence.

Now, you could always say that you made it look like it grew on the tree. But there is no need to do this unless you are trying to deceive us that the apple really did grow on a tree instead of being created ex nihilo.

Are you saying God deceived us?

 

[AV1611VET]

1. The created apple would have no seeds.

Why? can't the apple be omphalos?

The focus of this thought experiment is evidence of creatio ex nihilo, not the object being created.

It could be a marble, a drop of water, a grain of sand, a quantum of energy -- anything.

Let's not make this any harder than we have to, or you'll only confuse yourself.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Why? can't the apple be omphalos?

The focus of this thought experiment is evidence of creatio ex nihilo, not the object being created.

It could be a marble, a drop of water, a grain of sand, a quantum of energy -- anything.

Let's not make this any harder than we have to, or you'll only confuse yourself.

There's nothing confusing about it. Say whatever you want, end it with "goddidit," and there you go.

 

[AV1611VET]

There's nothing confusing about it. Say whatever you want, end it with "goddidit," and there you go.

You do that, and I'll call you on it.

That does not answer my challenge.

Who did it is not the focus.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

You do that, and I'll call you on it.

That does not answer my challenge.

Who did it is not the focus.

Goddidit, so nothing else matters, right?

 

[DarkProphet]

I create an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.

What evidence would you use to convince your friend I did this?

Question, would you do it again?

If so then that is proof you did it the first time.

If not then I would not bother, not because there is no evidence but because it would be meaningless.

I suppose if you wanted to you could extend this to the idea of a deistic god that created the universe but then did nothing and never interacted with his creation after that but worshiping such a god would be meaningless as well.

 

[AV1611VET]

Question, would you do it again?

No -- but since you asked, let's say I did do it again -- and again and again and again.

Let's say I do it 10,000 times.

If so then that is proof you did it the first time.

How is that proof I did the first apple ex nihilo?

You friend could say, "Ya, I see the 10,000 apples he created; but show me he made the apple that is in your hand ex nihilo".

 

[sandwiches]

No -- but since you asked, let's say I did do it again -- and again and again and again.

Let's say I do it 10,000 times.

How is that proof I did the first apple ex nihilo?

You friend could say, "Ya, I see the 10,000 apples he created; but show me he made the apple that is in your hand ex nihilo".

Because it shows that you CAN do it. If you can do it 10,000 times, why would we not believe that you did it that first time?

Remember it's not absolute certainty but about reasonable certainty. I don't know 100% for sure that the next time someone lets go off an object, it won't just float in midair, but it's reasonable to assume that, since it's happened 100% of the countless times other times it's been done, it will happen again.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because it shows that you CAN do it.

But look at your answer though.

You're having I convince your friend that the apple in your hand is ex nihilo.

Read my OP again, please.

 

[DarkProphet]

No -- but since you asked, let's say I did do it again -- and again and again and again.

Let's say I do it 10,000 times.

How is that proof I did the first apple ex nihilo?

It was implied that you would do in front of my friend but that's not required. Let's say I record it the 2nd through 10,000th time. That would be evidence would it not?

You friend could say, "Ya, I see the 10,000 apples he created; but show me he made the apple that is in your hand ex nihilo".

Actually, quickly creating 10,000 apples in an area with few apples would be compelling evidence. After all Jesus did a similar trick at a party once.

Ultimately, if you did it again then it's provable and relevant and if you don't then it's unprovable and irrelevant.

So are you arguing for a purely deistic god? If so you are correct to say we would not be able to prove or disprove the existence of such a god but such a god would also be meaningless to worship and be irrelevant in our lives.

 

[AV1611VET]

It was implied that you would do in front of my friend but that's not required.

Again, I have to reiterate, the question is what would you use as evidence?

Your scenario has me assisting you in convincing your friend; but that's not the point of this challenge.

So are you arguing for a purely deistic god?

Not at all.

This thread is not about whether or not God exists, but whether or not creatio ex nihilo generates any evidence that can be shown a third party.

 

[Split Rock]

This thread is not about whether or not God exists, but whether or not creatio ex nihilo generates any evidence that can be shown a third party.

This isn't about "creatio ex nihilo" as it was applied to anything in history. It is only about a specific example of "creatio ex nihilo" that you made up in which you specifically excluded any evidence. The apple looks like any other apple. Why? Because you say so. Your example has no real world application to anything.

 

[AV1611VET]

The apple looks like any other apple. Why? Because you say so.

Really?

317

 

[Freodin]

Really?

317

The apple looks different from other apples. Why? Because you say so!


This was, is and will be the main problem of this inane "challenge"... you don´t have any CEN apple to show to your friend!