My Apple Challenge

[AV1611VET]

Let me ask you: Are you in agreement when we say that since there would be no evidence to show that this apple was created out of nothing, there would be no reasonable reason to believe said claim?

Yes -- and I also agree that you would be wrong thinking that.

 

[sandwiches]

Yes -- and I also agree that you would be wrong thinking that.

That's correct in the context of your scenario. So, why should my friend believe me when I tell him that you created this apple? Wouldn't the logical and most reasonable response to withhold judgment until some evidence is presented?

 

[BananaSlug]

Yes -- and I also agree that you would be wrong thinking that.

If you believe there is no evidence to support creatio ex nihilo, they why do you believe it?

There are several things wrong with your hypothetical situation.

First of all, there is no manuscript describing the creation process of the apple that could be used as a template to test the apple.

Secondly, you are not a omnipotent deity that wants to be worshipped by its creation.

Thirdly, if their is no evidence that verifies the creation of said apple, one cannot be found at fault for not believing it was created ex nihilo.


There should be plenty of evidence of creation ex nihilo.

1. The oldest rocks would only be 6,000 years old.
2. There would be no fossils older than 6,000 years.
3. Visible stars would only be 6,000 light years or less away.

And of course you are the only creationist who does not believe evidence exists for creation ex nihilo.
Evidence for Creation

In short, this thread is a farce but I know it won't stop you from linking to it anyway...

 

[Split Rock]

These guys like to think like scientists, so I'm asking them a very basic scientific question so they can see just how myopic science really is.

AVET, I agree that science has its limitations. However, there are two things you do not seem to appreciate about limitations:

1. The origin of the earth and the origin of the human species are not outside the limits of science.

2. Your interpretation of scripture has its limitations as well.

 

[AV1611VET]

That's correct in the context of your scenario.

Yup.

So, why should my friend believe me when I tell him that you created this apple?

Who said he has to?

Wouldn't the logical and most reasonable response to withhold judgment until some evidence is presented?

That's not my call -- I'm only interested in what you would present to him as evidence.

Whether he believes you or not is not the point of this thread.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thirdly, if their is no evidence that verifies the creation of said apple, one cannot be found at fault for not believing it was created ex nihilo.

Why are you guys looking for fault in this challenge?

You're acting like it's your job to make your friend believe it.

 

[AV1611VET]

AVET, I agree that science has its limitations. However, there are two things you do not seem to appreciate about limitations:

1. The origin of the earth and the origin of the human species are not outside the limits of science.

2. Your interpretation of scripture has its limitations as well.

What say we leave the earth and the Scriptures out of this thread, please?

 

[Nathan Poe]

What say we leave the earth and the Scriptures out of this thread, please?

Seeing as how nothing in reality has any place in this thread, what say we leave this thread out of other threads, eh AV?

 

[Split Rock]

What say we leave the earth and the Scriptures out of this thread, please?

Seeing as how nothing in reality has any place in this thread, what say we leave this thread out of other threads, eh AV?

Actually... this is a good idea. Just how many threads does there need to be to repeat over and over and over:
1. I did the impossible. How would you convince your friend I did the impossible.
2. I couldn't, he wouldn't believe me.
3. He would be WRONG, WOULDN"T HE?????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Repeat.

/thread

 

[sandwiches]

Yup.

Who said he has to?

That's not my call -- I'm only interested in what you would present to him as evidence.

Whether he believes you or not is not the point of this thread.

Then, without evidence to present to my friend, I would say he's right in not believing me. After all, what reasonable person would believe another one of an extraordinary event without any evidence, whatsoever.

 

[AV1611VET]

Then, without evidence to present to my friend, I would say he's right in not believing me.

So you've judged your friend w/o even trying?

You're just going to shrug your shoulders and say, "Meh, he's not going to believe me anyway; so why try?"

 

[Nathan Poe]

So you've judged your friend w/o even trying?

You're just going to shrug your shoulders and say, "Meh, he's not going to believe me anyway; so why try?"

What do you care, AV? In another five minutes, you're going to demand that we keep friends out of this thread.

 

[pgp_protector]

What do you care, AV? In another five minutes, you're going to demand that we keep friends out of this thread.

Lets keep "keeping out xyz" out of this thread.

 

[sandwiches]

So you've judged your friend w/o even trying?

You're just going to shrug your shoulders and say, "Meh, he's not going to believe me anyway; so why try?"

I never said any of that.

If my friend doesn't believe me that you created an apple out of nothing, without evidence, I would think he right in not believing.

 

[AV1611VET]

I never said any of that.

If my friend doesn't believe me that you created an apple out of nothing, without evidence, I would think he right in not believing.

You're skipping the OP completely.

You're going from holding an ex nihilo apple, to telling me that if your friend doesn't believe you...

I want to know what happens in-between.

What would you present to him as evidence?

What evidence are you presenting him that he's rejecting?

I'm not interested in what he thinks -- I'm only asking what you would present to him as evidence.

You guys want to yak about what you think, or about what your friend thinks, and I want the part in the middle.

 

[Golden Yak]

It the apple created ex nihilo is indistinguishable from apples that are grown naturally, then there would be no evidence of it's special creation whatsoever.

 

[AV1611VET]

It the apple created ex nihilo is indistinguishable from apples that are grown naturally, then there would be no evidence of it's special creation whatsoever.

And what if the apple was distinguishable?

What if it had a GROWN IN JAPAN sticker on it, was blue, had a bruise on it, a worm in it, and squirted lemon juice?

 

[tanzanos]

.........

 

[Golden Yak]

And what if the apple was distinguishable?

What if it had a GROWN IN JAPAN sticker on it, was blue, had a bruise on it, a worm in it, and squirted lemon juice?

I'm not certain a blue, lemon-juice filled apple could properly be called an apple, but the vile breed known as Granny Smith still counts, so I guess such a thing could pass too...

An apple that was wholly unnatural and unlike any other might serve to convince some that it was produced in an unnatural way, but there is nothing about the unnaturapple itself that would exclusively point to creation ex nihilo.

If the apple could instead be tested and shown to be only minutes old, rather than the several months it would take a natural apple to grow and ripen, that would be far more likely to convince someone that it had been created unnaturally.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm not certain a blue, lemon-juice filled apple could properly be called an apple, but the vile breed known as Granny Smith still counts, so I guess such a thing could pass too...

An apple that was wholly unnatural and unlike any other might serve to convince some that it was produced in an unnatural way, but there is nothing about the unnaturapple itself that would exclusively point to creation ex nihilo.

If the apple could instead be tested and shown to be only minutes old, rather than the several months it would take a natural apple to grow and ripen, that would be far more likely to convince someone that it had been created unnaturally.

You sound like you're speaking for your friend -- you already know it's ex nihilo.

So what what evidence would you present to your friend to convince him?