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Evolutionary debate

Evolution

  • Belive in evolution

  • Don't belive in evolution


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Hespera

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I agree:

Do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? - Rom 2:4.

The intent of my point earlier was to show that the faith God freely gives us is supported by historical evidence, archeological evidence, and the evidence of present day human behavior. Such evidence strengthens our conviction.


I was walking across campus with this other girl, and she picks up a leaf.

"Oh look god made this for us, to represent the trinity!" (such evidence strengthens our conviction :)

Then why, i said, does it have five points?

"Oh it means god made it for to represent....."

(no wonder some of us are not impressed by evidence or faith)
 
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Doveaman

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I was walking across campus with this other girl, and she picks up a leaf.

"Oh look god made this for us, to represent the trinity!" (
such evidence strengthens our conviction :)

Then why, i said, does it have five points?


"Oh it means god made it for to represent....."


(
no wonder some of us are not impressed by evidence or faith)
You missed this part:

"It’s like God presenting you with a conviction (faith) about the origin of the universe (God did it) and then presented you with physical evidence that supports this conviction, but even without the physical evidence that supports the conviction the conviction would still be true."
smile.gif
 
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Hespera

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You missed this part:

"It’s like God presenting you with a conviction (faith) about the origin of the universe (God did it) and then presented you with physical evidence that supports this conviction, but even without the physical evidence that supports the conviction the conviction would still be true."
smile.gif


I suppose I could have included that. i am aware that people are going to believe that a 3 pointed leaf is from god to represent the trinity, and if it has five points, why they god meant it to represent something else.

So, i guess its like that a person thinks the "creator of the universe' cares to give them something. Once they have committed to that, with the infallible insight it gives them, then they are beyond the reach of any physical evidence to the contrary. is that it?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I think there is a big difference here. Don't you?
smiley-confused002.gif
The only difference is time: the original mammal species lived however-many millions of years ago, so its descendants have had quite a bit of time to speciate and differentiate. The descendants of fruit flies who lived last week, however, have not had such a long time. We'd expect the descendants of an organism which lived millions of years ago to be more diverse than the descendants of an organism which lived last week.

So, no, I don't think there's a big difference.
 
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SkyWriting

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.. We'd expect the descendants of an organism which lived millions of years ago to be more diverse than the descendants of an organism which lived last week...

[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]
Yet evolution hardly exists for:
Sharks have existed for over 350 million years.
The earliest known turtles date from 215 million years ago
The fossil record of rays and skates dates back to the Lower Jurassic (150 million years ago).
The very oldest species on Earth are the cyanobacteria, which seem to have been around virtually unchanged for nearly 4 billion years.
On the animal side of things, the brachiopod Lingulaa is probably the oldest, having existed nearly unchanged for over 500 million years, and the horseshoe crab (limulus) has been on the planet for several hundred million years, too.

Nobody has proven that the environments for these species have remained stable and free of stress for (up to) 4 Billion years.
 
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Split Rock

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Yet evolution hardly exists for:
Sharks have existed for over 350 million years.
The earliest known turtles date from 215 million years ago
The fossil record of rays and skates dates back to the Lower Jurassic (150 million years ago).
The very oldest species on Earth are the cyanobacteria, which seem to have been around virtually unchanged for nearly 4 billion years.
On the animal side of things, the brachiopod Lingulaa is probably the oldest, having existed nearly unchanged for over 500 million years, and the horseshoe crab (limulus) has been on the planet for several hundred million years, too.

Nobody has proven that the environments for these species have remained stable and free of stress for (up to) 4 Billion years.
The key here is virtually unchanged. The current species are not the same, they just aren't anatomically very differerent. Let's say that the environment, or at least all of the environemnts, had not remained fairly stable over this time period. What would have happened? They would have gone the way of the (non avian- for AVET) dinosaur. Just like for the majority of species and genera that have lived on earth.
 
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AV1611VET

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The key here is virtually unchanged. The current species are not the same, they just aren't anatomically very differerent. Let's say that the environment, or at least all of the environemnts, had not remained fairly stable over this time period. What would have happened? They would have gone the way of the (non avian- for AVET) dinosaur. Just like for the majority of species and genera that have lived on earth.
Had there been only two animals on the face of the whole earth -- a lion and a mountain lion -- I would guess and say that God would have told them to reproduce after their own kind.

Had there been only two animals on the face of the whole earth -- a giraffe and a grizzly bear -- I would guess and say that God would have told them to reproduce after their own kind.

The term 'kind' is indigenous to its context.
 
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SkyWriting

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The key here is virtually unchanged. The current species are not the same, they just aren't anatomically very differerent. Let's say that the environment, or at least all of the environemnts, had not remained fairly stable over this time period. What would have happened? They would have gone the way of the (non avian- for AVET) dinosaur. Just like for the majority of species and genera that have lived on earth.

My exact point.
The stability of the environments has not been proven.
They have remained stable for 4 Billion years in the one place that
refuses to change. The mind.
 
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SkyWriting

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Had there been only two animals on the face of the whole earth -- a lion and a mountain lion -- I would guess and say that God would have told them to reproduce after their own kind.

Had there been only two animals on the face of the whole earth -- a giraffe and a grizzly bear -- I would guess and say that God would have told them to reproduce after their own kind.

The term 'kind' is indigenous to its context.

Exactly true. "Kind" refers to the commonality between descendants.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Yet evolution hardly exists for:
Sharks have existed for over 350 million years.
The earliest known turtles date from 215 million years ago
The fossil record of rays and skates dates back to the Lower Jurassic (150 million years ago).
Who says they haven't changed? These are broad taxa, not specific species. 350 million years ago, there was a single species that is ancestral to all modern shark species. Even if that original species survived today*, there are still 440 other species of shark - sharks have indeed evolved. The same is true for turtles, rays, and skates - these words refer to broad categories of modern species, not to a single species which has existed for however many millions of years.

That's not to say so-called fossil species don't exist, or that they would contradict evolution, just that your argument doesn't work.

*I.e., a living member could potentially breed with one that lived 350 million years ago, if we had a time machine.

The very oldest species on Earth are the cyanobacteria, which seem to have been around virtually unchanged for nearly 4 billion years.
See above. Cyanobacteria doesn't apply to just a single species of bacteria.

On the animal side of things, the brachiopod Lingulaa is probably the oldest, having existed nearly unchanged for over 500 million years, and the horseshoe crab (limulus) has been on the planet for several hundred million years, too.
Horseshoe crabs are likely fossil species, I'll grant you that. A single, isolated example, you'll notice. Of all the millions of species, how many are given the informal moniker of 'fossil species'? A handful. As improbable as it is for any one species to become a fossil species, it's nonetheless probable that we'd find one, given the enormous number of species and fossils uncovered.

Nobody has proven that the environments for these species have remained stable and free of stress for (up to) 4 Billion years.
I submit that the existence of 170 million year old fossils is evidence enough that their environment was sufficiently stable.
 
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