• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Evolutionary debate

Evolution

  • Belive in evolution

  • Don't belive in evolution


Results are only viewable after voting.

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I disagree -- not from me, anyway -- but I could be wrong.

I absolutely have. I've learned the kinds of beliefs and rationalizations some people hold to maintain their beliefs. I've learned some counter arguments to ad hoc reasoning. I've learned that not even fundamentalists can agree on the fundamentals of their beliefs. I've learned there's no True Christian.' I've learned that you can't really debate with some people because they feel that their arguments are exempt from criticism or will simply tell you to take a hike when cornered.

I've learned quite a bit, actually. Now, if you think I haven't learned anything from you because I still disagree with you, then I'm afraid it's you who hasn't learned a thing.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,300
52,680
Guam
✟5,164,957.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I absolutely have.
And again -- I don't agree.

I have a feeling you knew all of this before you even came here.

But again, though -- I could be wrong.
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Then get over it -- we're here, and we're here to stay.

Calling us names and laughing at us, etc. isn't helping your side at all.

Either make some kind of effort to understand what we're saying, or leave the circus -- please.

Wow... It seems a touched a nerve there, AV.

Again, I understand what you're saying, AV. Your modus operandi is very simple, actually. You're right and everyone else is wrong no matter what. The end.
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
They are all horses.
That is beside the point... you asked how a claw could evolve into a hoof. That was the question I was addressing. However, if you saw a Hyracotherium munching on some leaves, I doubt that you would say, "Hey its a horse!" http://farm1.static.flickr.com/74/166719017_bea3d69f8d.jpg


It seems we've jumped to the conclusion that a hand turns into a flipper, or vice versa without a discernible reason for such a conclusion. However, the facts are simply that as a hand is supported by bones in its way, a flipper and a wing are supported by bones each their own way. It's no mystery that each creature's phalanges work in segments, how else would the muscles over the structure have flexibility?
The point I was making is that they all (hand, flipper, wing,etc.) have the same basic structure. The same bones, in the same order. My other point is that penguins use a wing (with feathers) as a flipper. Why? This is the type of adaption that evolution can explain, without resorting to "God likes variety."

Is this where I link answersingenesis? I might read that book though (I have a long list.)
It's a very good book, and not very long. I strongly recommend it. :thumbsup:

As far as AIG, let me tell you what surprised me the most about creationists I have encountered. The fact that they will (in general) accept any source without question, as long as it supports their position. It doesn't matter how dishonest or if the site is filled with misinformation or outright lies. AIG is one of these sites...yet it is also one of the most popular. Would you continue to use it as a source of information, if I showed you how dishonest it is?

Anyway, I would expect similar traits to be produced among non relatives of species utilizing the same method of building these traits - DNA. Whatever adaptation the environment requires, there's a genetic combination to achieve the necessary traits.
But this isn't what we see. We do not see a world of cut and paste organisms, with similar traits shared across all of them. We only see similar traits in related species. We do not see whales with feathers, or fish with a placenta. We do not see insect-like eyes in mammals, or insect wings on sugar gliders. We do not see chimeras, hippogriffs, hydras (non microscopic kinds!), satyrs, centaurs, etc.

Also, the fact that all organsims share DNA as the molecule of heredity, does not explain the sequence pattern we find among different species... the type of sequences similarities we find in human family trees... a nested hierarchy.
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
And again -- I don't agree.

I have a feeling you knew all of this before you even came here.

But again, though -- I could be wrong.

Not really. I don't usually see this types and magnitudes of belief in my every day life. Also, even when I have, people are not as assertive nor as insistent when you're talking to them face to face. It's a lot easier to debate in a forum than it is over a cup of coffee.
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
I'm sorry -- but your "AVspeak" caught me off-guard.

I'll get over it.

That was rude of me and I apologize. But to be candid, I don't like the many words you use in uncommon ways to validate your beliefs because I've seen you and many people use this trick to conflate and equivocate.

for instance, Doveaman was trying to convince us that even metaphors can be taken literally in the Bible since they're 'literal metaphors.' :doh:
 
Upvote 0

Split Rock

Conflation of Blathers
Nov 3, 2003
17,607
730
North Dakota
✟22,466.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
A five-year-old child should be able to look a scientist right in the eyes and tell him evolution is wrong.
Really? So, a five year old child is mature and wise enough to understand The Bible and Christian theology? So much so that he/she can tell me that the theory of evolution is wrong? Or are we simply talking about Indoctrination? Like those videos on Youtube where a little Muslim kid quotes the Koran verbatum and tells us "what to do" with Jews? I remember a program on the KKK I watched where they were having one of their cross-burning ceremonies. In it a little kid was dressed up in the white cloak and hood and passing around a torch. That was the most chilling part of the whole program for me.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hespera

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2008
7,237
201
usa
✟8,860.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
No, God didn't say it. You said it, and you have (as you often tell us) no idea what you're talking about when it comes to evolution.

And a scientist should be able to look a five-year-old back in the eye and tell him to run along and wipe his nose.

Then stop. Just stop talking about this subject. You're doing no one any good here, and you're wasting your life in the process.


A five year old ought to have enough common sense that if you told him that there was like all this extra water so a wind came and blew it all to Neptune to serve as a warning beacon for incoming rogue angels, he'd laugh.

What happens when people get older?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,300
52,680
Guam
✟5,164,957.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Not really. I don't usually see this types and magnitudes of belief in my every day life. Also, even when I have, people are not as assertive nor as insistent when you're talking to them face to face. It's a lot easier to debate in a forum than it is over a cup of coffee.
That doesn't give you (or anyone) cause to automatically deny things, intentionally block things out or laugh, scorn, ridicule, etc.

I mean -- you can if you want to -- but then it's like you guys ask the same questions over again -- and then everything repeats itself.
 
Upvote 0

sfs

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2003
10,868
7,882
65
Massachusetts
✟399,179.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Says you.
Of course says me. I'm quite serious about what I said, however. What good do you think it accomplishes to write the same thing over and over again, so many times? Even if you feel an obligation to present the truth(*) here, you do your own viewpoint a disservice by posting so repetitively. If you posted a quarter as often, everyone would still know exactly what you thought about the subject, people would if anything take you more seriously, and you could do something else with the time saved. Write notes comforting the afflicted, or thanking people serving in the military. Chat about sports, or hang out in a hobby forum and discuss what people are working on.

(*) That is, the completely whacked-out, unsubstantiated folderol that you think is truth, says me. But that's beside the point.

The same goes for lots of people who get caught up in online debates, of course, but you're an extreme example. God gave you the gift of life. Are you sure that telling scientists five hundred thousand times, rather than a mere hundred thousand, that they were wrong about evolution is really the wisest and best way to use that gift?
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,300
52,680
Guam
✟5,164,957.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That was rude of me and I apologize.
Apology accepted -- :)
But to be candid, I don't like the many words you use in uncommon ways to validate your beliefs because I've seen you and many people use this trick to conflate and equivocate.
Most -- if not all -- of the words I use are standard dictionary-referenced words.

I can even tell you, without looking, that the definition I use for 'age' is definition #4 on answers.com.

That's how many times I've used it.
for instance, Doveaman was trying to convince us that even metaphors can be taken literally in the Bible since they're 'literal metaphors.' :doh:
Some teach -- and I believe -- that Jesus' parables were actual events He witnessed in His lifetime.

I don't believe the Bible is as silent on Jesus' earlier years as some think It is.
 
Upvote 0

driewerf

a day at the Zoo
Mar 7, 2010
3,434
1,961
✟267,108.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Instant creation is the antithesis of [abiogenesis → man] evolution.

God said it -- that settles it.

We don't need to know how it works; we only need to know its antithesis.

A five-year-old child should be able to look a scientist right in the eyes and tell him evolution is wrong.

And I'm getting tired of explaining this to you guys.
A five-year-old child who would do that would just parrot his parents and have no idea what it would be talking about. It would be indoctrinated. it would be like the children of the West boruogh Baptist Church who picket funerals of dead soldiers claiming they 're gay. But when questionned these kids don't have absolutely any idea of what homosexuality is. They just parrot their parents.
Such an attitude is very close to child abuse.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-most-hated-family-in-america/
look at the 27th minut.
 
Upvote 0

sandwiches

Mas sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo.
Jun 16, 2009
6,104
124
46
Dallas, Texas
✟29,530.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
That doesn't give you (or anyone) cause to automatically deny things, intentionally block things out or laugh, scorn, ridicule, etc.
What things do you feel are 'automatically denied' or 'intentionally blocked?'

I mean -- you can if you want to -- but then it's like you guys ask the same questions over again -- and then everything repeats itself.

A lot of times we repeat things over and over because you guys avoid answering them. For instance, I have asked you a question three times in this thread and you keep ignoring while answering anything before or after it.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,856,300
52,680
Guam
✟5,164,957.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
For instance, I have asked you a question three times in this thread and you keep ignoring while answering anything before or after it.
Has it occurred to you I might not understand the question?
 
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,464
597
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Empirical evidence requires faith, now? Isn't that contradictory to what the Bible says faith is?
Abiogenesis is not empirical science. Sorry. It is a matter of faith, blind faith, unlike what the Bible says faith is.
 
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,464
597
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Normally, christian faith is not a logical conclusion based on the evidence. I would like to corner Josh McDowell and ask him point blank on this. The scriptures state that God's intervention is responsible for our "conversion". Spiritually speaking, God is in charge.

From our viewpoint, it may seem
that we've come to know God by our own efforts. But most likely, this is not the case.
I agree:

Do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? - Rom 2:4.

The intent of my point earlier was to show that the faith God freely gives us is supported by historical evidence, archeological evidence, and the evidence of present day human behavior. Such evidence strengthens our conviction.

It’s like God presenting you with a conviction (faith) about the origin of the universe (God did it) and then presented you with physical evidence that supports this conviction, but even without the physical evidence that supports the conviction the conviction would still be true. :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hespera

Junior Member
Dec 16, 2008
7,237
201
usa
✟8,860.00
Faith
Buddhist
Marital Status
Private
Abiogenesis is not empirical science. Sorry. It is a matter of faith, blind faith, unlike what the Bible says faith is.


you religionists sure have a lot of trouble with figuring what faith is and a bad habit of trying to make it look as if others share your problem.

you outta work that out before starting in on fixing up other people.
 
Upvote 0

Doveaman

Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Mar 4, 2009
8,464
597
✟87,895.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Descendants of a fruit fly will always be fruit flies, just as descendants of the first mammal species are all mammals.
I think there is a big difference here. Don't you?
smiley-confused002.gif
 
Upvote 0