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That Boat Don't Float!!

Catherineanne

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You have yet to answer why you think a belief in something is required for survival.

Not for survival. For motivation to get out of bed in the morning. No doubt that person lying curled up in his bed without belief could survive for a couple of very unhappy weeks, perhaps longer, but he would certainly wish to die.

Ok, here is how I know all of this stuff. I have complex post traumatic stress disorder, and one of the features of this is that the person who has it loses all sustaining beliefs. I have been there, and I know what it is like, and I know that a person without any beliefs cannot survive. I am not talking religious belief; I am talking everything. Belief in your family, your friends, your religion; even your own existence and your own personal identity. This is not a trivial thing to deal with. If you lose your sense of self, you become alone in the universe. In Christian terms, you are in hell. In psychological terms, you experience a state of extreme dissociation from which it is very, very difficult to return. Trauma disconnects us from one another and from everything we know and believe in. It leads us to a place in which it is possible to survive, but only just.

If other people here have not been to this place, and therefore feel authorised to deride what I say, then all I can say is, you do not understand, and I actually thank God for that. I hope you never do.

It really doesn't matter whether other people understand this or not. It is no less true. We all have to believe in something. In this narcissistic age, usually the first god is our own self.
 
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Catherineanne

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some people want an escape from reality.. imagine a poor person who has been homeless their whole lives, if they believe in the bible they can be happy because they believe they will go to a paradise in the sky after they die

This is a common misperception. In fact I don't give a tinker's cuss where I go after I die. I don't care if it is eternity, and I don't care if it is a lake of fire, and I don't care if it is eternal oblivion. Whatever it is, there is not much point worrying about it.

My faith gives me a methodology by which to live, and a reason for doing so; to follow the example of a man I find to be a good example to me. It is not about a nice cosy feeling, it is not about denial of reality, and it is not about pie in the sky when I die. It is about choosing one path or another, and I choose this one.

It is most certainly not about choosing the easy option. When the tide carries everyone in one direction, it is far easier to go with the flow than to swim against it. I choose to swim against it, and that cannot be done if I deny that the tide is there, or that the water is there, or that drowning is possible. :)
 
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Catherineanne

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So in lamens term: you would slit your own throat for god.. just cause he told you to.. with no justifiable reason behind it

No. If I thought God was telling me to cut my throat I would see a psychiatrist. ^_^
 
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Catherineanne

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Creationists attack evolution and Atheists because they don't have an argument that stands up on it's own,
they feed each other BS and forget about the smell by attacking the things that make a mockery of their beliefs..

This may or may not be true. However, I have never attacked anyone, atheist or otherwise, and yet I have come in for a highly amusing degree of denigration on this thread.

There seems to be no capacity in the atheists visiting to distinguish between one kind of Christian and another. It is as if we all have to be stupid and feeble minded, in order to allow atheism to be intellectually superior. Most entertaining, that one.

I really have to wonder, why do atheists need to come here and protest quite so strongly? Who exactly are they trying to convince? I feel absolutely no interest in visiting an atheist site to tell them all how dim they are; that really is not my concern. So why are you all here, really?

Could it be that you are wanting us to change your minds, and that for all the huffing and puffing, you are secretly rather envious of what we have? Surely not, with you being so superior, and intellectual, and all?

^_^
 
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LittleNipper

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This has been posted elsewhere, but I thought it deserved some discussion here on these forums.

In 1909 the schooner Wyoming was launched from the Percy & Small shipyard in Bath, Maine. She was state-of-the art in wooden hulled shipbuilding. She was a six masted schooner and, at 329 ft., the longest ship with an all wood keel and hull ever built. She was the last of nine wooden hulled, six-masted schooners built between 1900 and 1909, and one of seven built by Percy & Small. All were 300 ft. or more in length. They were all state-of-the art.

The Wyoming had 90 steel cross-braces. Even while she was yet on the drawing boards the marine engineers who designed and built her knew from experience with shorter ships that the length of the Wyoming would exceed the structural limits of wood. For this reason they attempted to defeat, or at least support, the laws of physics and the principles of marine engineering with steel.

It was to no avail. Not even the steel bracing could prevent the flexing and twisting that resulted in the separation of the hull planking. The Wyoming required constant pumping, as did her sister ships. The Wyoming leaked from the day she hit the water until the day, 14 years later, when she foundered and broke up off of Monomoy Island while riding out a storm at anchor.

It is said that she could be seen to snake (movement of the bow and stern from side to side in relation to mid ship) and hog (movement of the bow and stern up and down in relation to mid ship) while underway. The action of the waves, in even calm seas, caused the planking to be sprung beyond the capabilities of any caulking that could be devised. The Wyoming and her sisters were used, for the most part, for short, close-in coastal hauls, generally in sight of land. At the first sign if inclement weather, they could run for port. The Wyoming served for several years as a coal hauler, as did several of her sisters.

I have always had a great love for windjammers. I have some very expensive books that deal with the minutia of their construction and for years my hobby was to build full rigged wooden models. I spent hours climbing over the decks of the U.S.S. Constitution in Charleston Navy Yard, admiring her construction. The Wyoming must have been a beautiful vessel. But she was a beautiful anachronism. At about 300 ft. the structural capabilities of wood were exceeded beyond the abilities of engineering and design to remedy

Few other ships of this size were built of wood. One exception was the four-masted medium clipper barque, Great Republic built in 1853. She is sometimes reported as the longest wooden ship ever build with a length of 334 feet, but more usually it is claimed that she was 325 feet.

The Great Republic also had 90 steel cross braces, 4 inches wide, 1 inch thick, and 36 feet long. Nevertheless, she sprung her hull in a storm off of Bermuda. She was abandoned when the water in the hold reached 15 feet.

And yet, creationists want me to believe that a 450 ft. (minimum)* vessel of ALL wood construction (no steel bracings, etc. like in the Wyoming) was able to withstand a storm of 40 days and then remain at sea for almost a year, manned by only eight people, without the efficient pumps of the turn of the century, caulked with nothing more than "pitch inside and out".

Not to mention the overwhelming necessity of the limited crew to feed and water thousands of animals and to muck out thousands of pens (and then carry the result of the mucking up two decks in order to throw it overboard). When was there time for pumping (24 hours a day if the above is any indication) and the constant re-caulking in a futile attempt to stem the flow.


Experience with real wooden ships sailing in real oceans indicates that Noah's ark would not have survived many days, if any days, of the 40 day storm.


Noah's ark - that that boat don't float.



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*And I got that 450 minimum figure from numerous sources, including a number of different creationist ones. It was said to be 300 cubits, and depending on which cubit you use, the length ranges from 450 feet to over 500 feet.


Well for one thing, the ark was a barge and was not made to sail. All it had to do was float. The ark was also constructed with rooms inside. That would mean that the floors, walls and ceilings would have become supportive structures. It was pitched within and without.
 
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Catherineanne

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Why don't you go see one anyway? what harm can it do?

I am not going to go to see one, because my God is not psychotic, and neither am I. Thanks for asking.

What's your excuse?
 
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Catherineanne

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Well for one thing, the ark was a barge and was not made to sail. All it had to do was float. The ark was also constructed with rooms inside. That would mean that the floors, walls and ceilings would have become supportive structures. It was pitched within and without.

I hate to say this, but a barge is the last thing you would want to have in the event of a 40 day rainstorm, leading to extensive flooding. And a barge full of animals has to be asking for trouble!

I once went on a barge for 2 hours with 20 or so friends and family, on a calm summer's day, and that was more than long enough for anyone, even without the animals!

^_^
 
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Hespera

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Well for one thing, the ark was a barge and was not made to sail. All it had to do was float. The ark was also constructed with rooms inside. That would mean that the floors, walls and ceilings would have become supportive structures. It was pitched within and without.
`
"it" didnt need to sail no water.
 
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SkyWriting

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SOAP? what are you talking about.. the site edited what i really said

The try restating your position in a way so that computers don't spam your mouth.
 
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Wirraway

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Well for one thing, the ark was a barge and was not made to sail. All it had to do was float. The ark was also constructed with rooms inside. That would mean that the floors, walls and ceilings would have become supportive structures. It was pitched within and without.

how do you know it was a barge? I'm guessing "hogging" and "sagging" (as nautical terms) or "seakeeping ability" don't mean anything to you, right?
 
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Catherineanne

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i can agree.. its about choices.. no two people believe in the same exact thing in the same exact way and everybody has a different reason why they follow what they follow.. but there are some people that choose a religion out of fear of eternal fire or because they want eternal happiness and bliss.. neither of those really work for me so i choose to believe what i believe in.. people walk in the same direction, but nobody actually walks on the same path.. if that makes any sence

Yes, it makes a lot of sense. There are indeed many people whose faith is based on fear, and worse still, there are people who try to frighten others into faith.

Needless to say, I have no time for such an approach.

Everyone has a journey to make in this life, and along the way we meet a lot of people. We will have some things in common, and some differences. In my view, the measure of how well we (ie Christians) emulate Christ is how well we are able to accept those we meet without condemning them for being different from ourselves, and how well we are able to follow his example of compassion towards anyone who happens to be struggling, for whatever reason.

I honestly don't care if my faith is all about as 'factual' as believing in the tooth fairy. If as a result I can aspire to be a better person, and overcome my own frailties, and my own selfishness, then it is worth tooth fairies, leprechauns and anything else that happens to come along. I really don't much care.

Here is what it is. I have found the one person in all of history whose example I believe is worth following, and I am following him. After that, who cares if Noah built an ark or not, whether Moses really had a stick that turned into a snake, or whether Samson lost his strength when he had a hair cut? My faith is not based on Noah or Moses or Samson, but on the person I am following. :)

How real is my faith? In the end it is as real as I make it. If I do not make it real, then it really doesn't matter how real the Scriptures are proven to be; they are ultimately just so much waste paper. Faith is about how we live our lives, and how we make a difference in the small part of the world we happen to live in. It is not about feeling nice, or about dreaming of heaven while wallowing in the mud. It is about finding a direction, and a purpose, and following it.

Of course people without faith can find a purpose and a direction; many of them are far better at making a difference than believers are. But this does not mean that faith is not worth having, or that not having a faith is necessarily better. It is not about 'better' or 'worse'. It is about having a journey, and knowing why you are making it.
 
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Catherineanne

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Are you a creationists or are you not?

You tell me, dd. You have read my posts, haven't you? The evidence is there. Let's see how intellectual you really are. ^_^

Perhaps you should visit an Atheist site just for fun.

As it turns out, I don't need to; there are enough atheists here to amuse me for, well, at least another ten minutes or so. ^_^^_^^_^
 
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SkyWriting

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Well for one thing, the ark was a barge and was not made to sail. All it had to do was float. The ark was also constructed with rooms inside. That would mean that the floors, walls and ceilings would have become supportive structures. It was pitched within and without.

It did have a roof. Which suggests that rain fell on it. Kind of obvious, but I was just checking my theory that it rode on calm seas. People have suggested stormy seas, but that is not part of the story. Just rain. Maybe no wind at all. It wouldn't have to be especially sturdy. Just buoyant enough to float.
 
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Wirraway

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It did have a roof. Which suggests that rain fell on it. Kind of obvious, but I was just checking my theory that it rode on calm seas. People have suggested stormy seas, but that is not part of the story. Just rain. Maybe no wind at all. It wouldn't have to be especially sturdy. Just buoyant enough to float.

hogging? sagging? mean anything? I know this is a cartoon, but still...
 
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SkyWriting

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how do you know it was a barge? I'm guessing "hogging" and "sagging" (as nautical terms) or "seakeeping ability" don't mean anything to you, right?

"This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [d] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [e] the ark to within 18 inches [f] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. "

There is no mention of a storm or wind or rough seas.

It just had to float.
 
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Catherineanne

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If it works for you then you will end up being the winner, do your own thing.

Certainly I am a winner, but in a world of winners, where there are no losers; we all find what works for us.

I do not think atheists are losing anything; they are just on a different path. Life is not some kind of seesaw, where someone else has to go down if I go up. ^_^
 
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