Decision VS Free-Will

[Rightglory]

CantateDomino,

Short answer - yes. There is no choice involved in our salvation, but if we are so foolish as to persist in rejection and denial of the salvation once given us by God as a free gift, then ultimately that salvation can be lost.

You seem to be mixing, conflating two distinct and different aspects of our salvation.

When you say there is no choice in our salvation. For me that means that the Salvation of Christ's work on the Cross is not a choice. It is a gift given to the world, to every man. Christ overcame death, the fall and atoned for sin. That aspect man has no effect upon it, not cannot even reject it in any form.

However, because of this gift, giving life to the world, God calls all men to come in communion with Him. That is a free choice of every man. It is why man was created to which man was restored by Christ's work on the Cross. God created man, then recreated Him through the Incarnation of Christ and Christ's resurrection. The salvation of our souls is a struggle in our lifetime to overcome sin and the evil around us. It is done with the help of the Holy Spirit and man works with God synergistically in the salvation of his soul.

 

[Rightglory]

cygnusx1,

It has often been pointed out in the past that every objection made against the eternal decrees of God applies with equal force against His eternal foreknowledge:

Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, all that own the being of a God, own that He knows all things beforehand. Now, it is self-evident that if He knows all things beforehand, He either doth approve of them or doth not approve of them; that is, He either is willing they should be, or He is not willing they should be. But to will that they should be is to decree them. (Jonathan Edwards).​

unfortunately, Edwards was not an apostle. His opinion counts for very little, actually nothing when compared to the understanding of scripture from the beginning. If it was not believed, understood from the beginning it is a false teaching. It is the test of faith that which has always been believed, everywhere by everyone that determines the authenticity of the Gospel which is preserved in time by the Holy Spirit. It was His promise to preserve that original Gospel of All Truth given to the Apostles that matters. Not what man comes up with 1600 years later or even 2000 years later.
​

 

[cygnusx1]

right I see , so , unfortunately Rightglory is not an apostle his opinion counts for very little actually nothing .... fine your implication empties all your own posts of any worth .

no need to "but it's different" , "but I ...." "but wait a minute" ...........

 

[Philothei]

right I see , so , unfortunately Rightglory is not an apostle his opinion counts for very little actually nothing .... fine your implication empties all your own posts of any worth .

no need to "but it's different" , "but I ...." "but wait a minute" ...........

while Edwards talks in the top of his head RG has a tremendous tradition of Theologians who some of them actually participated in the council that put that very Bible that we hold in our hands today.... How does Edwards compares to that?

I think it would be easier if we keep our opinions about each other outside of posting....and deal with the issue... instead

 

[cygnusx1]

I think it would be easier if we keep our opinions about each other outside of posting....and deal with the issue... instead

tell that to RG , he always pulls this one , it's his default position ....... I merely hold him to the same standard .

as for comparing Edwards with ECF .... are they not all Christians , are not all Christians permitted to comment on scripture ? If I follow rg the answer he has already given is no . in his mind the church is infallible , but he cannot then permit any outside the orthodox church to be part of the church for then he would have to admit his own argument crumbles ......

 

[Tangible]

However, because of this gift, giving life to the world, God calls all men to come in communion with Him. That is a free choice of every man. It is why man was created to which man was restored by Christ's work on the Cross. God created man, then recreated Him through the Incarnation of Christ and Christ's resurrection.

I'm with you up to here.

The salvation of our souls is a struggle in our lifetime to overcome sin and the evil around us. It is done with the help of the Holy Spirit and man works with God synergistically in the salvation of his soul.

This sounds a little too close to salvation by works to me. I'm a full subscriber to sola fide.

Thanks for explaining your views.

 

[Rightglory]

CantateDomino,

This sounds a little too close to salvation by works to me. I'm a full subscriber to sola fide.

that may stem from the conflation of the salvation of mankind from the salvation or our individual souls.

the salvation of our souls is all about having faith, but faith must have works or it is dead. Faith and works cannot be separated relative to the saving of our souls. It is a cooperative, synergistic, mutual, personal relationship that we have with Christ. It is based on why we were created in the first place. It is that purpose that was restored to man because of Christ's work on the Cross to overcome the fall.

 

[Philothei]

tell that to RG , he always pulls this one , it's his default position ....... I merely hold him to the same standard .

what standard? It is Edwards opinion that RG disagrees I do not see why he has to have permission to do that? What is wrong with not liking a modern Theologian's opinion? Nothing wrong

as for comparing Edwards with ECF .... are they not all Christians , are not all Christians permitted to comment on scripture ? If I follow rg the answer he has already given is no . in his mind the church is infallible , but he cannot then permit any outside the orthodox church to be part of the church for then he would have to admit his own argument crumbles ......

I do not think that is what he said.. .You are missunderstandingn the argument here. Edwards does not talk out of the Tradition of the ECF period. No matter how to slice it it just does not cut it. The argument crumbles? How? You will need more than just I say so to establish that...
It has to do with the consience of the Apostolic Tradition nothing to do with a given Church tradition. There are many Apostolic Churches that are Protestant around that beleive the ECF yet they are not under EO or RC. How do you classify them then?

 

[cygnusx1]

I thiink your glossing over rg's comments , you yourself do not meet his standard , being an apostle , so unless you meet rg's standards you in rg's mind , count for nothing .

you can if you wish continue to gloss over it , but that will merely display bias .

If only ECF are permitted to interpret scripture then there is no room for this forum and debating with other Christians is a sham .

 

[randall jones]

Cygnus1,
that is precisely what it says. It does not say that God decreed that those men would sin in carrying out the crucifixion of Christ. It is specifically God knowing that it would happen at that point in time and Christ entered history. Which is why those men are held accountable and not God. God does not sin, nor does He cause any man to sin. He does not even tempt man to sin. It is solely man's responsibility for his sin.

It is true, scripture says that God does not tempt man. However, I'm reminded of Job. God gave permission to Satan to tempt Job. So while Satan was the one directly responsible for tempting Job, is not God then indirectly responsible for the temptation by giving His permission? What do you guys think?

 

[Philothei]

Christ was temtpted in the Garden of Gesthemane...Yet he did not sin and either did Job. Permission is given to be tempted or then we would be predestined

Agreeing to the sin is different though or Christ sinned in Gesthemane? He did not he has a weak human moment and he was tempted...Also why would the evangelist point out to that? To show us that Christ indeed had a human nature and will. it was "his choice" to go ahead with God's plan he was not "co-erced" (Sp?) to agree to do God's plan...
Same with Jonas who was trying to avoid God's will why would Jonas' consent was so important while God could have predestined him?

 

[Philothei]

What do you guys think?

it is like you are saying "is God responsible for giving us free will so we fall into tempteation and sin?" Nope as God created us with that possibility and right the right of chosing and making our own mistakes. God's responsibility to us is to always takes us back when we sin and repent from our sins... "metanoite" repent has that continuity in its intent... We are supposed to live in continious repentance; as the Apostle says "pray continioulsy" (unceasinlgy *spelling?*) Also Christ urges his Apostles to do the same "pray so that you do not fall into temptation" in Gesthemane. Human will is fragile and weak so prayer is one of the toolsl to not fall into temptation. Also the Apostle talks to us about the "race" we are in against the devil. We are given that priveledge to have a free will but we are also given the tools to overcome our weak will and be Christ like. The perfect human who did the will of His Father "with his own free will" and took up His own cross. God did not predestiend him or forced him to take up the cross unwillingly... For Christ says "whoever wants to follow me take your cross and follow me" that indicates his own sacrifice being that of HIS WILL and not ONLY His Fathers as the three persons of the Trinity (according to the councils) act in unity and unison. That would mean that it was the will of the Son as well as the will of the Father and the Holy Spirit in agreement.

 

[Philothei]

I thiink your glossing over rg's comments , you yourself do not meet his standard , being an apostle , so unless you meet rg's standards you in rg's mind , count for nothing .

you can if you wish continue to gloss over it , but that will merely display bias .

If only ECF are permitted to interpret scripture then there is no room for this forum and debating with other Christians is a sham .

That is not the subject of this thread. Rather than making comments on the posters it would be more preferable to stick to the comments the posters make. Not their motives and style and what have you. It is an opinion presented here by all of us. The ECF are widely accepted by many Protestant stands and churches i do not see how the aftermentioned 'theologian" can stand in comparisson to them. That is all we are saying. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and free to express it here And yes the ECF are "big" and they are due to their participation and contribution to the Chritian message. Some martyered because of percecution and that is the highest honor for a Christian to attain. Thus that is why they are set as an example and esteemed.

 

[Thekla]

tell that to RG , he always pulls this one , it's his default position ....... I merely hold him to the same standard .

as for comparing Edwards with ECF .... are they not all Christians , are not all Christians permitted to comment on scripture ? If I follow rg the answer he has already given is no . in his mind the church is infallible , but he cannot then permit any outside the orthodox church to be part of the church for then he would have to admit his own argument crumbles ......

Commenting on scripture is not the same as being aright in the understanding.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

Personally, I still don't see how we truly have free will.

When God made the "wager" with satan, he knew the outcome of the whole exchange: from what satan would ask to do, to Job overcoming. Now, would God allow that to happen to someone who wasn't as holy as Job? Would it be the same outcome?

Temptation is supposed to, by the Church, be marginal since we are to have faith that God will deliver us out of every temptation. But it isn't. Millions of members of the Church are going through trials they think they will never get out. Yet, we are to muster up enough faith and strength to keep going, without any direction or perceived help?

The book of Job worries me the most because what if God allows someone to go through a trial he knows s/he can get through, however s/he doesn't know and doesn't believe it true? Does s/he fail (and ultimately burn in true Hell,) or is there really NO FREE WILL, and s/he was chosen because it was already written that s/he would pass (or fail)?

I think we have been lied to a lot. The bible isn't complete - and that is obvious seeing as how several other denominations have several "missing" books in their cannon. The bible has become a general term used for holiness of something, but it is not complete. So, what about those people that don't know this... are they damned?

Or perhaps, the people that do know this... why isn't information just flat out here for us? Why not just make available the whole truth instead of searching and sifting through lies all the time. I understand WE sinned, but if it was already planned for all of this to happen then what is the point of all of this? All the emotion, works, events, things we do in "life" is trivial and more or less like computer code...

 

[bibleblevr]

Christ was temtpted in the Garden of Gesthemane...Yet he did not sin and either did Job. Permission is given to be tempted or then we would be predestined

Agreeing to the sin is different though or Christ sinned in Gesthemane? He did not he has a weak human moment and he was tempted...Also why would the evangelist point out to that? To show us that Christ indeed had a human nature and will. it was "his choice" to go ahead with God's plan he was not "co-erced" (Sp?) to agree to do God's plan...
Same with Jonas who was trying to avoid God's will why would Jonas' consent was so important while God could have predestined him?

This is precisely the subject of the thread. Someone can be tempted and given a choice. We all agree on that. ( Actually, I don't think we can all agree on anything on Christian forums lol ) However what is the difference between that choice and real free-will? People, all too often biblically prove that humans can make decisions, then say,"HA I have proved free-will" but it is not the same thing. As I mentioned in an early post, robots are fully capable of making decisions, but they are bound to a program none the less. Don't we have programing as well? The psalmist says to God, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." God decided in what family, with what friends, and in what circumstances he would place us. God controls our nature and our nurture, the two things acknowledged to give people their set of values, their Personality, intellect and everything else. God wrote our program because he created us. Were does free-will come into play? No matter what you do, you are acting out of some kind of motivation. This motivation comes from the set values you hold, and the values you hold come from either your created nature, your upbringing or past experiences, All of which God decided for you.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

This is precisely the subject of the thread. Someone can be tempted and given a choice. We all agree on that. However what is the difference between that choice and real free-will. As I mentioned in an early post, robots are fully capable of making decisions, but they are bound to a program none the less. Don't we have programing as well, we were born after God knit us together in the womb, as the psalmist says. He also decided in what family and with what friends and circumstances to place us in. God controls our nature and our nurture, the two things acknowledged to give people their set of values, their personality, intellect and anything else. God wrote our program because he created us. Were does free-will come into play? No matter what you do, you are acting out of some kind of motivation. this motivation comes from the values you hold, and the values you hold come from either your born nature, or your up bringing and past experiences.

But, it isn't free if it was programmed. I can program a robot to think s/he has free will, but it doesn't mean it does.

Likewise with humans, more and more evidence points to us being programmed vessels for whatever God wants -- cosmic stem cells if you will.

 

[Philothei]

This is precisely the subject of the thread. Someone can be tempted and given a choice. We all agree on that. ( Actually, I don't think we can all agree on anything on Christian forums lol ) However what is the difference between that choice and real free-will? People, all too often biblically prove that humans can make decisions, then say,"HA I have proved free-will" but it is not the same thing.

Temptation that Christ had did lead for him two choices that could (if he was predestined) changed the course of that supposed predestined plan that does not take into account free will. God forsaw his "will" to do His Father's wll at that point. It was not a "simple" choice of do I want to eat apples or oranges? If that is the choices you imply nope! that is not what is presented here

As I mentioned in an early post, robots are fully capable of making decisions, but they are bound to a program none the less. Don't we have programing as well? The psalmist says to God, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." God decided in what family, with what friends, and in what circumstances he would place us. God controls our nature and our nurture, the two things acknowledged to give people their set of values, their Personality, intellect and everything else. God wrote our program because he created us.

If we are programmed and "we live " in an controled enviorment then will has no place period. The "choices" we make are irrelevant to what course we take like I said wearing blue instead of purple one day is not free will but choces made by a parakeet that ressembles a free agent.

Were does free-will come into play? No matter what you do, you are acting out of some kind of motivation. This motivation comes from the set values you hold, and the values you hold come from either your created nature, your upbringing or past experiences, All of which God decided for you.[/

If God decides for you no need for "choices" since the choices are already either meaningless (which shoes to buy the red or the brown) or they are non existant.


And that was not the case in Christ's temptation nor in Jonas "stuborness" to accept the will of God... Why those two in the Gospel? What do they teach us? Choice? I think that if they ended up not doing God's wll they would be totally lost... So it was will it was not some meaningless choice..It they were predestined no reason to exist in the Bible..

 

[Philothei]

Personally, I still don't see how we truly have free will.

When God made the "wager" with satan, he knew the outcome of the whole exchange: from what satan would ask to do, to Job overcoming. Now, would God allow that to happen to someone who wasn't as holy as Job? Would it be the same outcome?

God knew as he can see the future but the Satan did not appartently...
Only God knows the future. Why would God would want to put His creation to test if he knew the result. That would not make him for a loving God now.. would it? God put Job to the test as I think He was teaching Job patience and how to trust God. Why did he tested Abraham? to teach him loyalty and trust. There is always a lesson to learn from trials we are allowed to have. God knows our limits and give to us accordingly. But the greatest of all is to learn to trust Him first.

Temptation is supposed to, by the Church, be marginal since we are to have faith that God will deliver us out of every temptation. But it isn't. Millions of members of the Church are going through trials they think they will never get out. Yet, we are to muster up enough faith and strength to keep going, without any direction or perceived help?

We have help and direction...and that is Christ. He was tempted he never sinned. He was of human nature as much as Divien and yet he managed not to sin. This is our ideal our example and since there is no man who ever lived and not sinned except Christ we aaccept this and live a life of continious repentance. Our strength comes from our Lord.

The book of Job worries me the most because what if God allows someone to go through a trial he knows s/he can get through, however s/he doesn't know and doesn't believe it true? Does s/he fail (and ultimately burn in true Hell,) or is there really NO FREE WILL, and s/he was chosen because it was already written that s/he would pass (or fail)?

Nope read above ... God does not give us burdens that would make us dispear or make us give up. The Devil can though and God in not in charge of the devil so yes God is not responsible for all trials we endure. Mostly trials that God gives us like Job are tolerated as God would not push our limits and knows our limits.

The fact that men give up and chose not to follow God is a free choice out of their own free will because they are tempted by the devil. Not always the devil asks permission from God to tempt an individual that is why we pray
"deliver us from the evil one" we are confirming our intent to God that we do intent to be with Him and ask for his intervension in our lives. If we were predestined agan no need for that...prayer either.

I think we have been lied to a lot. The bible isn't complete - and that is obvious seeing as how several other denominations have several "missing" books in their cannon. The bible has become a general term used for holiness of something, but it is not complete. So, what about those people that don't know this... are they damned?

Nope they are not damned. And the Bible is complete as far as its message goes is what Christ has preached to us and what the Apostles evangelized. All of the scripture is to be used and the reason some other books were not included in the canon is either because they were deviating the message or they were not necessary to the overall message that was preached.
Nope they are not as the Apostle says we are to judge these that we know(meaning the Christians) but these who we do not and they are not of 'us' we cannot judge thus the non Christians (cannot recall the verse though) so IOW the judgment is His what H would do to those who are not Christians.

Or perhaps, the people that do know this... why isn't information just flat out here for us? Why not just make available the whole truth instead of searching and sifting through lies all the time. I understand WE sinned, but if it was already planned for all of this to happen then what is the point of all of this? All the emotion, works, events, things we do in "life" is trivial and more or less like computer code...

Because we are human we are weak and we have free will and it gets confusing I agree... with all this information. But this should not be a burden if one is looking for the truth the Bible points to the right direction if one starts with the canon of the Bible and the council that put it all together. Doing a historic pilgramage to Christianity and read about the Apostolic tradition then one is off to a good start.
As far as predestination I believe it does not exist except if one is doing God's wlll then one can say that willingly is following Christ. God does have a plan for us IF we decide to follow Him.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

God knew as he can see the future but the Satan did not appartently...
Only God knows the future. Why would God would want to put His creation to test if he knew the result. That would not make him for a loving God now.. would it? God put Job to the test as I think He was teaching Job patience and how to trust God. Why did he tested Abraham? to teach him loyalty and trust. There is always a lesson to learn from trials we are allowed to have. God knows our limits and give to us accordingly. But the greatest of all is to learn to trust Him first.

Yes, but these were all His chosen people from the beginning. What about people who wont have a "legacy" or a book in the bible named after them? He chose these people because He knew the outcome, like you said. But, as far as they knew - they were in for every type of temptation. God may know our limits, but we don't.

Take the example of someone who commits suicide. To them their trials are unbearable, but God knows who they are and their limits: the person doesn't. As a result, s/he commits suicide and are lost. Now, was this an act of free will, or did this happen according to God's plan.

Are all those people that commit suicide going to hell? And, why create them anyway unless they were just agents in a bigger plan?

We have help and direction...and that is Christ. He was tempted he never sinned. He was of human nature as much as Divien and yet he managed not to sin. This is our ideal our example and since there is no man who ever lived and not sinned except Christ we aaccept this and live a life of continious repentance. Our strength comes from our Lord.

See, Jesus was DIVINE - we are NOT. We are all sons and daughters of MEN, not GOD (also). Therefore Christ had a substantial leg up on all of us. We are incomparable to Him. Again, the question that needs to be answered is if all of this is planned anyway. If it is, even though everyone has free will not everyone will receive the strength from God. Is this a plan, or is this choice?

Nope read above ... God does not give us burdens that would make us dispear or make us give up. The Devil can though and God in not in charge of the devil so yes God is not responsible for all trials we endure. Mostly trials that God gives us like Job are tolerated as God would not push our limits and knows our limits.

The fact that men give up and chose not to follow God is a free choice out of their own free will because they are tempted by the devil. Not always the devil asks permission from God to tempt an individual that is why we pray
"deliver us from the evil one" we are confirming our intent to God that we do intent to be with Him and ask for his intervension in our lives. If we were predestined agan no need for that...prayer either.

So the devil is loose and tormenting and doing to whomever he chooses? And, God just sits back and watches while creation like a re-run? (since he Knows who will succumb to satan, and who wont). And again, what about kids and adults that commit suicide?

Nope they are not damned. And the Bible is complete as far as its message goes is what Christ has preached to us and what the Apostles evangelized. All of the scripture is to be used and the reason some other books were not included in the canon is either because they were deviating the message or they were not necessary to the overall message that was preached.
Nope they are not as the Apostle says we are to judge these that we know(meaning the Christians) but these who we do not and they are not of 'us' we cannot judge thus the non Christians (cannot recall the verse though) so IOW the judgment is His what H would do to those who are not Christians.

Maybe the message, but as you can see on this website it doesn't matter if the message is clear because the individual will make what they want of it. And not all "missing" books are heretical. I have read a few (Enoch to be specific) and they explain a lot more than canonical texts. I am not judging non-christians, I am saying that our paths are already sealed by God and, thus everything we do is trivial anyway. I can, for example, choose not to eat, drink, etc. If that was written for me, it will happen. If it wasn't, no matter how badly I want to do it I WILL NOT because the path is already written. DO you see the futility?

Because we are human we are weak and we have free will and it gets confusing I agree... with all this information. But this should not be a burden if one is looking for the truth the Bible points to the right direction if one starts with the canon of the Bible and the council that put it all together. Doing a historic pilgramage to Christianity and read about the Apostolic tradition then one is off to a good start.
As far as predestination I believe it does not exist except if one is doing God's wlll then one can say that willingly is following Christ. God does have a plan for us IF we decide to follow Him.

I hear this SO MUCH... "we are humans... we are of sin, etc." If we can say that our salvation was planned, why can't we say the same things about our individual actions? It seems like saying we have free will is a way to keep people thinking they are in control. Jesus was human according to most all Christians. He was NOT weak. He was NOT of sin. Therefore, what gives with us lowly creatures? Are we all pots that, at any moment, will be burned in the furnace at the will of the potter?


And, by the way, God seems to have a plan for all of us: case and point would be Satan and his role as the ultimate adversary. Another would be Pharoah. We are all used as agents whether we want to be or not: we are either with Him or against Him. If we are against Him then he will still control our lives for His will - still no free will. If we do follow him, there is still no certainty we will be with Him. Happy Catch-22.