Roman church errors and inventions

[bbbbbbb]

(Utterly and irredeemably off-topic)



From the Official Rhode Island website:



The official name of Rhode Island is State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. It was formed as the merger of two colonies though we now just refer to it by the island's name. Rhode Island the actual island is known locally as Aquidneck Island to avoid confusion. The source above suggests the name is a corruption of the Dutch Roodt Eylandt. However, there is a monument on the island which gives a different story:



Source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Verrazzano_monument.jpg

The other half of the state's name is "Providence Plantations", named by Roger Williams, who was banished from the Massachusetts Bay Colony for his religious views. He named it "Providence" in thanks to God and the term "Plantations" just means "colony" in contrast to the slave plantations of the South and Caribbean.

Thank you for the information.

 

[Thekla]

Good point. For those of us who suffer from a "holier than thou" syndrome and somehow believe that our church is pure and without error, it is helpful to get a small dose of humility and realize that churches are, indeed, human institutions which are subject to human error. The Roman Church, unfortunately, does not hold this position.

The late Pope John Paul (can't remember his #) apologised to the EO for the Crusaders actions in Constantinople. That is something

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Nice pick up Thekla

LOL Holy Pot calling the kettle Black.

Nobody burned or hung those witches like the good ole Puritans back in the day

Welcome to A Puritan's Mind!

I Hate Christ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JGGKOjF8FU&feature=related

 

[Secundulus]

Wasn't Quran 5 written during a time of war?

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

The Muslim apologist will tell you that. However, it has been applied to Christians and others throughout the 1400 years of Islam. It is also used as justification today for the persecution of Christians theroughout the Islamic world.

Whenever listening to a Muslim speak to a westerner about Islam the key word to keep in mind is Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah. Islam Watch - "Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah" by Warner MacKenzie

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it.
When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

Bukhari Vol 4: 269 “Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here are a few of the verses. There are many more.

Qur'an 5:17"Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, 'The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.'"

Qur'an 5:51"Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other."

Qur'an 9:29"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low." [Another translation says:] "pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection."

Qur'an 5:14"From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done."

Qur'an 5:47"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

Qur'an 5:72"...Lo! Whoever joins other gods with Allah or says He has a partner, Allah has forbidden Paradise, and the Hell Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help."

I have found the Qu'ran to be a strange and tortured book, difficult to follow. Not only does it contain the aforementioned surahs (among many such) but it also contains surahs such as the following:

5:5 Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How the heck did this thread get on the subject of the Quran?

 

[Secundulus]

Wasn't Quran 5 written during a time of war?

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

The Muslim apologist will tell you that. However, it has been applied to Christians and others throughout the 1400 years of Islam. It is also used as justification today for the persecution of Christians theroughout the Islamic world.

Whenever listening to a Muslim speak to a westerner about Islam the key word to keep in mind is Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah. Islam Watch - "Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah" by Warner MacKenzie

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it.
When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

Bukhari Vol 4: 269 “Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

 

[Secundulus]

How the heck did this thread get on the subject of the Quran?

Like the old days in non-christian religions.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Muslim apologist will tell you that.
Bukhari Vol 4: 269 “Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "War is deceit."

That needs to be taken to the NCR board

Non-Christian Religion - Christian Forums

 

[Secundulus]

I have found the Qu'ran to be a strange and tortured book, difficult to follow. Not only does it contain the aforementioned surahs (among many such) but it also contains surahs such as the following:

5:5 Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.

It was written in two stages. The Mecca verses when Muhammed lived in Mecca and was weak are all full of peace. The later Medina verses were written when he was strong and spreading Islam by force. These are normally violent. Where they contradict each other the Medina verses superceed the Mecca verses. Since the Quran is not in chronological order, this confuses people reading it for the first time.

A rule of thumb is that if a peaceful verse is contradicted by a violent verse, the violent verse was written later and is the one that is authoritative in defining Islamic law.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It was written in two stages. The Mecca verses when Muhammed lived in Mecca and was weak are all full of peace. The later Medina verses were written when he was strong and spreading Islam by force. These are normally violent. Where they contradict each other the Medina verses superceed the Mecca verses. Since the Quran is not in chronological order, this confuses people reading it for the first time.

A rule of thumb is that if a peaceful verse is contradicted by a violent verse, the violent verse was written later and is the one that is authoritative in defining Islamic law.

I used to be on a forum that the most passionate Muslums protested the bible's authenticity with every lie they could come up with. But when it came to defending peace between Muslums and Christians they were totally loyal to the cause of peace.

 

[Philothei]

That needs to be taken to the NCR board

Non-Christian Religion - Christian Forums

Ok what exactly are you looking to find out her LLOJ?

I think it is like...."he who is without sin let him cast the first stone"....

out of the soapbox...now

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ok what exactly are you looking to find out her LLOJ?

I think it is like...."he who is without sin let him cast the first stone"....

out of the soapbox...now

Ahhh....I also have a thread on that

John 8 and Jesus writing in the Dirt - Page 6 - Christian Forums
John 8 and Jesus writing in the Dirt

John 8:6 This yet they said trying Him, that they may be having to be accusing of Him. The yet Jesus down-stooping to the finger wrote into the ground.
7 As yet they persisted asking Him, He up-bends and said toward them "The sinless-one of ye first the stone on her let be casting"!
8 And again down-stooping He wrote into the ground.
[Daniel 5:24?]

Daniel 5:24 In-then before-him being-sent the-fingertip, that of the-hand and-the-writing, the-this, being-signified
25 And this the writing that being signified: 'Mene', Mene', T@qal , P@rac'.
[John 8:6?]

 

[boswd]

Good point. For those of us who suffer from a "holier than thou" syndrome and somehow believe that our church is pure and without error, it is helpful to get a small dose of humility and realize that churches are, indeed, human institutions which are subject to human error. The Roman Church, unfortunately, does not hold this position.

And what were the apologies that Pope John Paul the II made about the mistakes the Church has made in the past?

I mean for someone who claims to think he knows everything about the Catholic Church, I find that be one heck of an oversight.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And what were the apologies that Pope John Paul the II make about the mistakes the Church has made in the past?

I mean for someone who claims to think he knows everything about the Catholic Church, I find that be one heck of an oversight.

What took the RCC church so long to finally come around and apologize? Just curious....

 

[boswd]

What took the RCC church so long to finally come around and apologize? Just curious....

maybe it just took someone who is as humble as JPII.

why did it take our country up until Bill Clinton to apologize for slavery?
Who knows?

Have The Reformers apologized for the burning of innocent people yet?

 

[Philothei]

Thanks for the verse ....I hope it means something... than been a "verse" alone...

How can we judge any Church in its "errors" I mean we do it when we select one to be a member but ... as far as our spiritual lives it is better not to sit around and point fingers. As far as humility let us take the "stick" out of our own eye first and then our brothers. The "errors" are all there what is missing I think is realization that the more we dwell on them the less chance we have to be forgiving.

By that I do not mean that we should not examine them okay we do ... Fine but I think after a while though they become nuisance than a point....

Instead of looking for theological differences we are looking for "right and wrong" we become polarized... if each party digs they hills in to what they believe and I think we are pretty much set in regards to that. What else is there to the discussion?
I think this issue has been hit to the pulp...IMHO....

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

maybe it just took someone who is as humble as JPII.

why did it take our country up until Bill Clinton to apologize for slavery?
Who knows?

How come the previous Popes didn't humble themselves like JPII did?

 

[boswd]

How come the previous Popes didn't humble themselves like JPII did?

Don't know and Don't know where you are going with this.

I guess it's a damned if you do damned if you don't.


Have you ever wondered why the Reformers have never apologized for burning and hanging innocent people?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Don't know and Don't know where you are going with this.

I guess it's a damned if you do damned if you don't.


Have you ever wondered why the Reformers have never apologized for burning and hanging innocent people?

This thread isn't concerning the Reformers or Protestants......