"Goddidit"

[BananaSlug]

If creationists are so hung up on saying "Goddidit" as an answer to any creation related question, why bother trying to give a coherent explanation in the first place? Instead of trying to give a pseudoscientific answer about floodwaters going to Neptune, a "different state" past or the like, just say "Goddidit" and be done with it.

Furthermore, if "Goddidit" is such a great answer, why bother going to the doctor for your ills? Obviously God meant for you to contract the disease, and it is God's job to heal you. By going to the doctor you are taking the power out of God's hands and showing you don't really trust him to heal you. Plus, many of the medicines you take were made with the help of our understanding of evolution (Oh noes!).

The whole reason we moved beyond the stone age is because people started thinking for themselves. What if all of our medical knowledge centered around "Goddidit"? That is a scary thought.

 

[TangledUpInGlue]

If creationists are so hung up on saying "Goddidit" as an answer to any creation related question, why bother trying to give a coherent explanation in the first place?

My view is that Creationists - or at least, that subset of Creationists who want their mythology taught in science classes - only tend to use "Goddidit" as a fallback, an answer to give when there is no other explanation that supports their worldview. If they want Creationism taught as an alternative to evolution, it has to be presented as having at least some scientific merit. Hence you get lots of silly concepts like "hydrodynamic sorting of fossils" and "missing supernova remnants" in order to give the movement the appearance of scientific legitimacy. It's a way of saying "Goddidit" without actually saying it.

 

[juvenissun]

If creationists are so hung up on saying "Goddidit" as an answer to any creation related question, why bother trying to give a coherent explanation in the first place? Instead of trying to give a pseudoscientific answer about floodwaters going to Neptune, a "different state" past or the like, just say "Goddidit" and be done with it.

Furthermore, if "Goddidit" is such a great answer, why bother going to the doctor for your ills? Obviously God meant for you to contract the disease, and it is God's job to heal you. By going to the doctor you are taking the power out of God's hands and showing you don't really trust him to heal you. Plus, many of the medicines you take were made with the help of our understanding of evolution (Oh noes!).

The whole reason we moved beyond the stone age is because people started thinking for themselves. What if all of our medical knowledge centered around "Goddidit"? That is a scary thought.

After all this time, you are still making this nonsense comment. You are wasting your time here.

 

[Sanguis]

After all this time, you are still making this nonsense comment. You are wasting your time here.

It's not nonsense.

Did you hear about that man, whose 11 year old daughter died of diabetes?

All he did for her, was pray, pray, pray and pray some more, as her condition got progressively worse, unti leventually a worried relative called the police, who took her to hospital where she was pronounced dead.

The sad thing is, if he had to've called the ambulance, or even just taken her to a GP, she'd still be alive, the diabetes she had was treatable.

11-Year-Old Girl Dies after Parents Opt for Prayer

I guess Goddidit?

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

It's been my observation that those who pray for healing do so PLUS seeking the best health care available to them.

It goes something like this:

Prayer request: "Mama just got pancreatic cancer. We're taking her to Standford. They have one of the best cancer treating hospitals around. Would you pray that god gives insight to the doctors so mama gets the best care?"

Congregation: "We'll keep her in our prayers."

... two weeks later.

Prayer request: "Mama started chemotherapy last week. She's real sick. Please pray that she feels better in between her chemo treatments."


...two weeks later.

Prayer request: "The doctors say mama isn't going to make it. They've done everything they can do. They told us to take mama home and call hospice. Please pray that her familiy has the strength to deal with this."

...one week later.

"Mama passed away last night. Please pray for dad, as he's taking this real hard. This must have been god's will. I guess he needed her more than we did."

Question: Was there any difference in outcome between an athieist and the christian in this same hypothetical scenario? Does prayer "work?"

 

[Wedjat]

It's not nonsense.

Did you hear about that man, whose 11 year old daughter died of diabetes?

All he did for her, was pray, pray, pray and pray some more, as her condition got progressively worse, unti leventually a worried relative called the police, who took her to hospital where she was pronounced dead.

The sad thing is, if he had to've called the ambulance, or even just taken her to a GP, she'd still be alive, the diabetes she had was treatable.

11-Year-Old Girl Dies after Parents Opt for Prayer

I guess Goddidit?

There was a more recent one with a girl, I think she was 5 months, I can't remember.
Her parents "treated" her by anointing her with oils and feeding her watered down wine.
Clearly, she died.

Or what about that, what, 14 year old? That refused blood transfusion and died.

 

[tansy]

It's been my observation that those who pray for healing do so PLUS seeking the best health care available to them.

It goes something like this:

Prayer request: "Mama just got pancreatic cancer. We're taking her to Standford. They have one of the best cancer treating hospitals around. Would you pray that god gives insight to the doctors so mama gets the best care?"

Congregation: "We'll keep her in our prayers."

... two weeks later.

Prayer request: "Mama started chemotherapy last week. She's real sick. Please pray that she feels better in between her chemo treatments."


...two weeks later.

Prayer request: "The doctors say mama isn't going to make it. They've done everything they can do. They told us to take mama home and call hospice. Please pray that her familiy has the strength to deal with this."

...one week later.

"Mama passed away last night. Please pray for dad, as he's taking this real hard. This must have been god's will. I guess he needed her more than we did."

Question: Was there any difference in outcome between an athieist and the christian in this same hypothetical scenario? Does prayer "work?"

Prayer and faith isn't as simple as that. God expects us to use our noddles as well.
As for creation, as far as I can see, the basic thing is that Scripture says that God SPOKE and various things came into existence...the exact how one doesn't know. So, in that sense, for those who have faith in God and believe He is the Creator, then that is the very botton line where one can say 'Goddidit'...the process though, one is ignorant of.
And one musn't forget (IMO), that however He did it, He could easily have set things up from the beginning to pan out as He wanted (rather like an expert chess player can see loads of moves and possibilities ahead, not only his own, but his opponent's, so can make his moves acordingly).
Thus, IF He created using evolution, then IMO, He would have been able to so set His initial 'product' as it were, so that it would turn out as He wanted.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Prayer and faith isn't as simple as that. God expects us to use our noddles as well.
As for creation, as far as I can see, the basic thing is that Scripture says that God SPOKE and various things came into existence...the exact how one doesn't know. So, in that sense, for those who have faith in God and believe He is the Creator, then that is the very botton line where one can say 'Goddidit'...the process though, one is ignorant of.
And one musn't forget (IMO), that however He did it, He could easily have set things up from the beginning to pan out as He wanted (rather like an expert chess player can see loads of moves and possibilities ahead, not only his own, but his opponent's, so can make his moves acordingly).
Thus, IF He created using evolution, then IMO, He would have been able to so set His initial 'product' as it were, so that it would turn out as He wanted.

Hmmm.
I always thought that a simple faith, that of a child was all that is necessary. Isn't there an inverse relationship between amount of faith, and using your "noddle?" The more faith you have, the more reliance on god to deliver on your request.

 

[AV1611VET]

If creationists are so hung up on saying "Goddidit" as an answer to any creation related question, why bother trying to give a coherent explanation in the first place?

Because some of you don't even understand the concept of "God did it."

For example, imagine answering questions on the 10 Plagues with "God did it", instead of showing that those plagues were not just random plagues; but each one was targeted at a specific Egyptian deity.

"God did it" is a powerful tool that should only be used when there is no other recourse. It is a rank-pulling answer that silences even an ardent questioner.

They may not like it, they may not understand it, they may not agree with it; but it is the be-all/end-all answer; and, as I said, should be used as a last resort.

Instead of trying to give a pseudoscientific answer about floodwaters going to Neptune, a "different state" past or the like, just say "Goddidit" and be done with it.

If I remember correctly (and I don't have time to look it up), I tried "God did it" in that conversation, and was still pressed for something else; so I gave the questioner (MrGoodBytes?) what he wanted, an ad lib answer.

If you honestly think we should respond as such, BananaSlug, can I assume you won't be asking us any questions from now on?

Furthermore, if "Goddidit" is such a great answer, why bother going to the doctor for your ills?

Because that's where we're supposed to go. God gifts (note: "gifts") us doctors, and we're supposed to consult them.

Remember Luke, the "beloved physician"?

Another reason is the dispensation we're in.

Note that Paul, in the beginning of his ministry, raised Eutychus from the dead; but later, he had to leave his friend Trophimus sick at Miletum.

Why was that?

Because the transition period between Law and Grace was coming to an end, and the Apostles' lives were coming to a close.

Remember: that book that details the transition period is call The Acts of the Apostles, not The Acts of the Holy Spirit, as some erroneously beliveve.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

"Goddidit" is simply used as an (non)answer when no positive proof can be offered. Nothing more, nothing less.

When a person of faith comes to the point in a discussion in which they can no longer use reason, logic, and reality to support their postion, then the "goddidit" answer is used. I agree with AV that it should be a last resort answer, but different reasons I suppose.

Close cousins to the "goddidit" answer is the "his ways are not our ways," and the ever popular "god moves in mysterious ways."

 

[thaumaturgy]

Because some of you don't even understand the concept of "God did it."

Technically speaking there is nothing to understand per se. It just is.

God did this.

"God did it" is a powerful tool that should only be used when there is no other recourse.

And you will never know that until you assess the data at hand.

It is a rank-pulling answer that silences even an ardent questioner.

It only silences those who believe God exists. Otherwise the rest of us will "keep looking" as you say.

And interestingly enough in matters of science God often remains quite silent except for those who believe from the outset that he did a certain thing.

They may not like it, they may not understand it, they may not agree with it; but it is the be-all/end-all answer

Again, only for those who believe he exists. It is as much of a "be-all and end-all" answer as "Zeuss Did it" would be to you.

If you honestly think we should respond as such, BananaSlug, can I assume you won't be asking us any questions from now on?Because that's where we're supposed to go. God gifts (note: "gifts") us doctors, and we're supposed to consult them.

Actually Banana's questions is a bit deeper than that. HOW do you decide that this instance is one in which God wants you to rely on physical world science and that instance is one in which God wants you to just be happy with "God Did It"?

Let's talk Genesis for a moment. In that case you say that despite all the data to the contrary the earth has only been going around the sun for 6100 years because "God Did It" (embedded age into a world he created 6100 years ago and in a short time). In that case you want us to abandon what the science says actually happened (4.5billion years of actual "going around the sun"). But if you see someone with a disease treatable by medicine in that case science gets to do the heavy lifting and cure the person.

Again, how do you know the illness was something God wanted treated with science but science must be held at arms length for what the geologic record says?

 

[tansy]

Hmmm.
I always thought that a simple faith, that of a child was all that is necessary. Isn't there an inverse relationship between amount of faith, and using your "noddle?" The more faith you have, the more reliance on god to deliver on your request.

If more creationists did use their head, and think a little, there wouldn't be any creationists. IMO.

Part of the problem I think, is defining faith and where it comes from. We can actualy have misplaced faith. For example I could drum up as much 'faith' as I liked that you would come here and give me a million quid, but in reality, that's not gonna happen (or highly unlikely lol)
With God, we don't (or oughtnt to imo) have faith with no evidence, or no REASON to have that faith. We normally use reason as well, we don't just blindly believe anything. God also gives us faith..ok, that might seem nuts to you, but for Christians, that's how it works, and unless you've experienced it, I don't think people can quite understand.
Anyhow, having placed our faith and trust in God over cetain things, and finding that God doesnt let us down, inspires us to have more confidence in Him - despite some things not being quite as we thought always. Now there are certain things where we can't (imo) be absolutely certain of the EXACT meaning of Scripture, (if there was a general consensus of exactitude, then there wouldnt be so much argy-bargy amongst people about a lot of things). But the point is, that God gave us Scripture, plus His Spirit, to guide us..we have faith more in HIM than anything..we can't place our faith in absolute interpretations of Scripture, cos we just havent got everything right. Just as one can't place absolute faith in science, as it is still ongoing investigation, and things get overturned...but science gives us enough to go on - and God also gives us enough to go on.
Sorry, not sure if any of that makes much sense.

It's just, if evolution is true, that raises a lot of questions for me. If certain interpretations of the Creation narrative are true, that also raises a lot of questions for me. I just think we haven't got all the answers yet in science, OR in our interpretations of Scripture. That neither negates God and who He is, nor does it negate those things which science can discover. We just ALL have to be open to the possibility that we may be wrong about certain things.
For my part, I'm convinced that God exists and he created (though, who knows, could turn out I'm wrong...but that belief has certainly worked for me, and a whole lot better than before I believed)
On an atheist's part, they're convinced that God DOESNT exist and so of course couldnt create, though most would say they cant 100% rule out His existence...and for them, that presumably seems fine to them
I think it really is a matter of what you know and have experienced or discovered. A scientist may believe they've discovered something like dark matter for example, but I think that things such as that, are more indirect discoveries - I'm not sure that concrete proof could be given to me. Same with God..I believe I have 'discovered' God, but I can at best only give you indirect proof, not concrete proof.

Sorry, I've probably rambled way off topic, but I just wanted to (inexpertly) respond to your post.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Another reason is the dispensation we're in.

AV, you rely a lot on "Dispensation Theology". While I am aware of the standard more modern Dispensation Theology when it got it's big start in the 1820's with Darby, I also understand some versions of Dispensation Theology date as far back as Irenaeus in the 2nd century.

Could you fill us in when the first church authors first came out with the idea of the different Dispensations. And I'm not asking for what the Bible appears to say by it's treatment of various activities.

I'm most interested in when the Christian church first started thinking in terms of Dispensationalism. And why does your church follow Dispensationalism? I assume this is in contrast to Covenant Theology? Or is it in conjunction with it?

 

[tansy]

Hmmm.
I always thought that a simple faith, that of a child was all that is necessary. Isn't there an inverse relationship between amount of faith, and using your "noddle?" The more faith you have, the more reliance on god to deliver on your request.

If more creationists did use their head, and think a little, there wouldn't be any creationists. IMO.

Sorry, I got so carried away with what I replied before, I forgot what your question was

One point about faith is, that just supposing you had a medical problem, and were asking God to heal you, or what to do about it.
God might possibly just heal you there and then, OR He might tell you to consult a doctor, OR He might tell you to do something seemingly quite illogical (as in Scripture where He tells someone to go and dip themselves in a river 7 times in order to be cured of a skin condition..sorry cant remember offhnd, the scrip ref). OR He might tell you to do something that makes sense. For example, I remember reading about someone who had backache, I think it was, and she was in a service, and the person praying told her that God said for her to change the sandals she was wearing. She did so (when she could go and buy a new pair I assume) and her backache went away. Something to do with the previous shoes was presumably throwing her spine or whatever out of true.
Not that God always speaks directly (and I'm not talking necessarily about words or audibly btw)..sometimes He doesnt respond like that - and sometimes really, He does expect you just to go the doc's or whatever, as that is what is there available. He's not gonna just produce a loaf of bread on the table for no good reason, especially if you have the money and can just nip down to the local shop to buy one - we'd probably never get out of our seats if He just provided everything on tap as it were. Then we'd be complaining to Him that we were dying of boredom lol.

Oh yes, that was the point..by faith you obey what God has said...if He says, go to the doctor, and you don't, then you're not going to get fixed. If He says change your sandals and you don't, then you're not gonna get fixed.
All of this I'm explainng over-simplistically, but of course we're really supposed to be talking about other stuff, I spose.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

...if He says, go to the doctor,supposed to be talking about other stuff, I

So how do you know if he tells you to go to the doctor or not?

 

[Nathan Poe]

The thing to remember is that the Creationist argument is based entirely on authority -- or to be more precise, on the perception of authority.

It starts with the Bible -- The more honest creationists see a literal Bible as an authority, and need us to see it as one too in order for their argument to fly.

of course, the truth is, what they're really promoting is their own authority -- their insistance that the Bible is a literal, word-for-word history book.


Next step is the professional creationists -- your average YEC sees that we take the word of professional scientists pretty seriously, although they mistakenly believe that we respect scientists because they're scientists. So, they get a few guys with degree of their own to say what they want heard.

What they don't realize is that nonsense spoken by someone with "Ph. D." after his name is still nonsense. A scientist doesn't get respect from a title, s/he gets respect from actually earning it.

When all else fails -- and in inevitably does -- the Creationist is forced to fall back on their own ultimate Authority: God. Since "Goddidit" is only used to prove what the creationist wants proven, and since the claim effectively negates everything the creationist previously tried to prove, God therefore becomes little more than a tool for the creationist to promote their own authority over the rest of us.

 

[tansy]

So how do you know if he tells you to go to the doctor or not?

Well. probably, normally He wouldn't. I should think that He would normally EXPECT you to go to the doctor, whilst seeking Him for healing or anyhting else He might want to say to you.
Sometimes, people also mishear Him - and I would reiterare that it's not that you're hearing voices or anything..it can be an impression, or a picture, various things. Sometimes, one's SURE it's God, sometimes one's not so sure..it can be wishful thinking. It's really hard to explain, and obviously all sorts of rsndom thoughts can go through ones's mind which are totally unrelated. If, for example one got the impression or thought that one should jump off a cliff, it would be highly unlikely that that would be God. Usually, people who do crazy kinds of things have got something wrong with them, or are seriously misled. One does evaluate and also often check with other people,especially if it's something serious, what they think
But there are are plenty of people, including me, who've been told something by God by whatever means, and it has been the right or best thing to do. (And it's not just intuition or a hunch)

I only wish God would reveal to everyone EXACTLY what is meant by the Genesis story (personally I think that there's a lot more to it than meets the eye) Then evolutionists AND creationists would be happy, cos then we'd all have all the answers LOL

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, you rely a lot on "Dispensation Theology". While I am aware of the standard more modern Dispensation Theology when it got it's big start in the 1820's with Darby, I also understand some versions of Dispensation Theology date as far back as Irenaeus in the 2nd century.

Could you fill us in when the first church authors first came out with the idea of the different Dispensations. And I'm not asking for what the Bible appears to say by it's treatment of various activities.

I'm most interested in when the Christian church first started thinking in terms of Dispensationalism.

Here is a good site that I hope will answer your question:

What is Dispensationalism?

This pretty well covers it.

And why does your church follow Dispensationalism?

Yes.

I assume this is in contrast to Covenant Theology? Or is it in conjunction with it?

Contrast.

We believe Paul was a dispensationalist as well, as some of his comments allude to it:

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

 

[BananaSlug]

Because some of you don't even understand the concept of "God did it."

There is nothing to understand. You are using an omnipotent deity to wave away any evidence that violates your worldview.

"God did it" is a powerful tool that should only be used when there is no other recourse. It is a rank-pulling answer that silences even an ardent questioner.

Exactly. You only use it when you get pushed into a corner.

If you honestly think we should respond as such, BananaSlug, can I assume you won't be asking us any questions from now on?Because that's where we're supposed to go.

From now on, when you state "Goddidit", I'll ask "why".

God gifts (note: "gifts") us doctors, and we're supposed to consult them.

Wrong, we are supposed to rely solely on God.


Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths. Proverbs 3:5-6


Thus says the Lord:
“Cursed is the man who trusts in man" Jeremiah 17:5

Remember Luke, the "beloved physician"?

Don't you mean "beloved healer". The Greek word does not mean "physician" in the modern sense.

I still stand by the fact that Christians who go to the doctor don't trust God enough to heal them by his power alone.

 

[Sanguis]

I still stand by the fact that Christians who go to the doctor don't trust God enough to heal them by his power alone.

It's because, no matter how much they say God means more to them than the rest of humanity, it's rarely true.

They'll nearly always put more faith in medical science, than the healing power of prayer.

And good on them for doing so, because medical science actually works!

Oh, sure, they might pray whilst they're getting medical help, but the people who don't pray get helped just as much as those who do. As I've read before, it's just a way of doing nothing, whilst making it feel like you're doing something.