"Goddidit"

[Hentenza]

If creationists are so hung up on saying "Goddidit" as an answer to any creation related question, why bother trying to give a coherent explanation in the first place? Instead of trying to give a pseudoscientific answer about floodwaters going to Neptune, a "different state" past or the like, just say "Goddidit" and be done with it.

Furthermore, if "Goddidit" is such a great answer, why bother going to the doctor for your ills? Obviously God meant for you to contract the disease, and it is God's job to heal you. By going to the doctor you are taking the power out of God's hands and showing you don't really trust him to heal you. Plus, many of the medicines you take were made with the help of our understanding of evolution (Oh noes!).

The whole reason we moved beyond the stone age is because people started thinking for themselves. What if all of our medical knowledge centered around "Goddidit"? That is a scary thought.

God created doctors so, yes, God did it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Don't you mean "beloved healer".

No.

I still stand by the fact that Christians who go to the doctor don't trust God enough to heal them by his power alone.

Let's look at what Jesus said:

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

In this passage, who is identified as needing a physician?

 

[Sanguis]

I've got a throat infection.

I could:

A) Pray to God to heal my throat infection.

B) Keep taking my antibiotics.

C) All of the above.

Now, if I only do A, I can rest assured that my throat infection will get worse.

If I only do B, then I can rest assured that my throat infection will get better.

If I do C, then I can rest assured that my throat infection will get better.

I'm doing B, and it's definitely getting better.

If I did C, is it not logical to say that the prayer would have absolutely no bearing on whether or not my throat infection heals up?

Therefore, isn't it logical, that even if I was a Christian, putting more faith in medical science to cure my throat infection will yield better results than putting more faith in God to heal it?

*Rolls up a cigarette.*

Yeah, this probably isn't helping.

 

[BananaSlug]

Let's look at what Jesus said:In this passage, who is identified as needing a physician?

Those who are spiritually sick. Christ was talking about spiritual healing. Obviously you do not care about original Greek or Hebrew, otherwise you would not confuse the modern meaning of "physician" with the original meaning.

 

[AV1611VET]

No. Let's look at what Jesus said:

• Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

In this passage, who is identified as needing a physician?

Those who are spiritually sick. Christ was talking about spiritual healing.

The spiritually sick need a physician?

Obviously you do not care about original Greek or Hebrew, otherwise you would not confuse the modern meaning of "physician" with the original meaning.

Am I supposed to care?

Note: fyi it is the same word used here:

25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,

 

[BananaSlug]

The spiritually sick need a physician?

A spiritual physician, a healer. Christ is the Great Physician.

Am I supposed to care?

I would think that any Christian worth his salt would care about the context of the original language.

Note: fyi it is the same word used here:

Yes, and they were not modern physicians. They did use many herbs, many of which did not have any effect. Most of their healing came from folklore from the various religions of the area. And you do remember it was Christ who healed her, not the "physicians". In every place in the Bible where they are mentioned, they are incapable of healing certain afflictions.

But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." (Luke 18:27)

I haven't heard about anybody raising people who had been dead for three days. Jesus did say we would do greater works than he, right?

"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up." James 5:14

^I don't see anything in that verse about going to the doctor.

 

[LordTimothytheWise]

It's been my observation that those who pray for healing do so PLUS seeking the best health care available to them.

It goes something like this:

Prayer request: "Mama just got pancreatic cancer. We're taking her to Standford. They have one of the best cancer treating hospitals around. Would you pray that god gives insight to the doctors so mama gets the best care?"

Congregation: "We'll keep her in our prayers."

... two weeks later.

Prayer request: "Mama started chemotherapy last week. She's real sick. Please pray that she feels better in between her chemo treatments."


...two weeks later.

Prayer request: "The doctors say mama isn't going to make it. They've done everything they can do. They told us to take mama home and call hospice. Please pray that her familiy has the strength to deal with this."

...one week later.

"Mama passed away last night. Please pray for dad, as he's taking this real hard. This must have been god's will. I guess he needed her more than we did."

Question: Was there any difference in outcome between an athieist and the christian in this same hypothetical scenario? Does prayer "work?"

Have you ever looked into the belief systems and actions of those people who have made miraculous recoveries though? Also how it affected them?

It seems to me you are taking the worst possible situation to use as your argument.

 

[AV1611VET]

I wasn't going to reply to this post, telling myself that I'm not going to argue with someone who is just talking himself out of understanding; but I'll acquiesce for the sake of addressing this part.

"Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the Church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up." James 5:14

^I don't see anything in that verse about going to the doctor.

I do.

The oil was medicine.

And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

 

[hangback]

Have you ever looked into the belief systems and actions of those people who have made miraculous recoveries though? Also how it affected them?

What the <staff edit> are miraculous recoveries?? if someone gets better there is a reason why, there is NEVER anything 'miraculous' about it, it seems to me you people will believe ANYTHING if it's associated with a God or a miracle, even magic, it must have something to do with your upbringing.

 

[BananaSlug]

I wasn't going to reply to this post, telling myself that I'm not going to argue with someone who is just talking himself out of understanding; but I'll acquiesce for the sake of addressing this part.I do.

The oil was medicine.

I'll remember to pour oil on myself next time I get pneumonia. Or I guess we no longer need chemo for cancer, just pour oil over the patient and pray. That is what the Bible says to do.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'll remember to pour oil on myself next time I get pneumonia. Or I guess we no longer need chemo for cancer, just pour oil over the patient and pray. That is what the Bible says to do.

You do that, sir.

And I promise you, you'll get a reality check that should erase any mental block.

I have a feeling you'll quickly learn how to respect hermeneutics.

 

[BananaSlug]

You do that, sir.

And I promise you, you'll get a reality check that should erase any mental block.

I have a feeling you'll quickly learn how to respect hermeneutics.

Are you saying it will work or it will not work? If it doesn't work, then the Bible is lying.

 

[LordTimothytheWise]

What the <staff edit> are miraculous recoveries?? if someone gets better there is a reason why, there is NEVER anything 'miraculous' about it, it seems to me you people will believe ANYTHING if it's associated with a God or a miracle, even magic, it must have something to do with your upbringing.

Of course there is a reason. That doesn't necessarily mean that said reason is strictly materialistic or ateleological.

I will not agree with every argument made in favor of the existence of God. Don't presume so much about me.

You are making a philosophical presupposition that I, nor the perspective I have advocated do not, and basing your rejoinder argument upon that. To me that seems like pretty poor logic if it is an attempt to attack my perspective as rationally unjustified or inconsistent.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Have you ever looked into the belief systems and actions of those people who have made miraculous recoveries though? Also how it affected them?

It seems to me you are taking the worst possible situation to use as your argument.

Yes, of course I have.

I know a non-spiritual/religious/agnostic women in her fifties who "miraculously" cured cancer. She researched her condtion, and stayed at a facility where they treat serious condtions with diet and nutrition. The program is very regimented and monitored. She effectively 'cured' her cancer with lifestyle changes.

Conversely, my mother-in-law's older sister (late fifties I think), just passed away from metastasized cancer. Unfortunately, she was an alcoholic and chronic smoker for decades. She had numerous people praying for her. There was no miraculous recovery in her case. Additionally, she was recieving top oncological treatment in So. Cal.

The point about 'prayer' is this: It changes the attitude of those praying. Nothing more. In fact studies show that it doesn't matter who you pray to. What matters is the fact that you pray/meditate etc. It seems the deity/spirit/concept/etc. being prayed to is irrelevant.

 

[Sanguis]

I find this whole "miraculous recovery" stuff hilarious.

It seems every Christian and his dog's best friend's second aunt's father miraculously recovered from 8 different types of cancer, and the doctors are always confused!

Yet not one instance of it has ever been recorded or published in a medical journal, not one instance of it has ever made it into any reputable literature. All there is of it, is hearsay, from almost every Christian's brother's wife's pet poodle's great great grandfather.

 

[LordTimothytheWise]

Yet not one instance of it has ever been recorded or published in a medical journal, not one instance of it has ever made it into any reputable literature. All there is of it, is hearsay, from almost every Christian's brother's wife's pet poodle's great great grandfather.

Incorrect. Instances such as the aforementioned are generally labelled "spontaneous remission" there are over 14k hits on pubmed for that term, so that things like that happen imo shouldn't be much of a debate. The explanation for them happening would be a better discussion.

Life to the Fullest makes a good point, and I think what he says is true to some degree, but I think often there is more that can be said about such events.

 

[BananaSlug]

If a disease thas a 95% death rate, maybe it wasn't God that healed them. Maybe it was the fact they were the 5% that DIDN'T DIE. LTTF hit the nail on the head. Prayer has a psychological effect. It makes you feel better.

Conversely, if a Christians use "miraculous healing" as evidence for God, does that mean the miraculous healing of people in other religions is proof of their gods?

 

[Freodin]

I find this whole "miraculous recovery" stuff hilarious.

It seems every Christian and his dog's best friend's second aunt's father miraculously recovered from 8 different types of cancer, and the doctors are always confused!

Yet not one instance of it has ever been recorded or published in a medical journal, not one instance of it has ever made it into any reputable literature. All there is of it, is hearsay, from almost every Christian's brother's wife's pet poodle's great great grandfather.

This is not quite correct.

Spontaneous remission of cancer is a known phenomenon, and while I don´t have the relevant knowledge to point you to some "reputable medical journal", there are quite a number of documented cases.

The real problem is how (part of) the Christian side deals with that phenomenon. For some, it is a miracle, an argument for God and they use it this way. Thus the side-stories, the (atheist) doctors certain the patient will die and their utter confusion and bewilderment about the remission.

Truth is that doctors are aware that it happens sometimes, and that the causes for that remission are unknown and the potential conditions varied. It is an effect that no known medicamentation or therapy can trigger... and that includes prayer!

 

[MoonLancer]

I wasn't going to reply to this post, telling myself that I'm not going to argue with someone who is just talking himself out of understanding; but I'll acquiesce for the sake of addressing this part.I do.

The oil was medicine.

what happened to your literal translation?

 

[hangback]

You are making a philosophical presupposition that I, nor the perspective I have advocated do not, and basing your rejoinder argument upon that. To me that seems like pretty poor logic if it is an attempt to attack my perspective as rationally unjustified or inconsistent.

What has logic got to do with your cockeyed ideas? you're talking about miracles, miracles only happen for the ignorant.