Somebody has got to do something!

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Drekkan85

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I'd also point out that you DID have options other than Bush or Kerry, three examples include the Constitution Party, the Libertarian Party, and the Green Party. Thinking Democrat/Republican is part of the false dichotomy that both parties have used to maintain a duopoly on power that's detrimental to the American people.

And as for the "throw your vote away" - that only applies as long as people continue to ignore the option of third parties under the justification that they won't win. THe only way to change that is to change your vote, and work on people you know to change theirs, and so on and so forth.
 
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hiscosmicgoldfish

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I'd also point out that you DID have options other than Bush or Kerry, three examples include the Constitution Party, the Libertarian Party, and the Green Party. Thinking Democrat/Republican is part of the false dichotomy that both parties have used to maintain a duopoly on power that's detrimental to the American people.

And as for the "throw your vote away" - that only applies as long as people continue to ignore the option of third parties under the justification that they won't win. THe only way to change that is to change your vote, and work on people you know to change theirs, and so on and so forth.

exacto.. same in this country.
 
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BernieEOD

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Do we forget that in the begining of this nation, the choice was between the Federalists and the Democratic Republicans? And later between the Democrats and the Wigs? The GOP was a "Third party" Until Lincoln was elected. So to will it be that one of the third parties will one day bump one of the two off the ticket.
 
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Nadiine

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Do we forget that in the begining of this nation, the choice was between the Federalists and the Democratic Republicans? And later between the Democrats and the Wigs? The GOP was a "Third party" Until Lincoln was elected. So to will it be that one of the third parties will one day bump one of the two off the ticket.
at this point I could care less when they all suck

it wouldn't make any difference
 
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Nadiine

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I'd also point out that you DID have options other than Bush or Kerry, three examples include the Constitution Party, the Libertarian Party, and the Green Party. Thinking Democrat/Republican is part of the false dichotomy that both parties have used to maintain a duopoly on power that's detrimental to the American people.

And as for the "throw your vote away" - that only applies as long as people continue to ignore the option of third parties under the justification that they won't win. THe only way to change that is to change your vote, and work on people you know to change theirs, and so on and so forth.
K, here's an exerpt on the Green Party website:

Today in America the best paid one-fifth of the population receives about one half of all national income, while the bottom one-fifth receives less than 4 per cent.
The distribution of wealth in America is even more unfair. Here, the top one-half per cent of all property owners control over 25% of all wealth; while the top 5% sit on nearly 70% of wealth and property.
What chance does the average person have for exercising his or her democratic rights under these conditions!
Ya, how FAIR is it to get paid for your job skill and purchase things
with it?
:doh:

I don't want to make a vote based on the fact that there IS another
party option alone...
It really would help if the other parties even let us know
who's RUNNING for election?
:mmh:

Until they can do that, I'll stick to what I know so I don't
toss votes away from republicans.
 
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jiminpa

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A pastor I once heard on this said that there is more than one
series of trumpets listed in scripture.... that most people mistake
the one in Revelation as the trumpet.

But if you continue reading the verses in 1 Thes 4., it ends with this:

17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Maybe somebody can explain to me what's encouraging to
find out that you'll be in hiding, hunted down, in search of
food (you can't buy or sell w/out the mark)
& beheaded for your faith but don't worry, you'll be
raptured eventually if you make it long enough on the run.
:| :(
If we're outta here the instant things get rough, what's the need for encouragement? It is encouraging that at that time our graduation is near, when we will all be raised up to be with God eternally. it is encouraging that God is with us in all things.

The problem with trying to create a non-biblical distinction in trumpets is that it is irrelevant anyway. However many types of shofars are sounded it is at the last one that we will be raised. No matter how you slice it at least six of the seven trumpets of Revelation occur before we are raised.
 
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Hairy Tic

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And what exactly should I pray for? Should I pray that Obama lead this nation in repentance in sackcloth and ashes for throwing God out of America? Ooops...first I'd need to pray that Obama stop doing that himself. Ooops...before that, I'd need to pray that Obama actually believe in Jesus and the Bible. Ooops...even before that, I'd need to pray that Obama abandon the false gods of his fathers.

The man mocks the Bible, Christians ("bitterly clinging to guns and religion") and Christianity publically and is doing everything ANTI-CHRISTIAN (abortion, homosexuality, referring to Christians as extemists) that he possibly can all while claiming to pray to Jesus. That's the kind of "Christian" that the church is supposed to remove from our fold.
## Sorry - for some reason I was under the impression you were Christian. Prayer is important to Christians. At least, it is in the NT. Jesus prayed for his enemies, as well as telling his followers to do so.
 
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Hairy Tic

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Ya this is a very common error people make -

That just becuz some people do wrong, it means that the Bible
can't be true or right.
I guess that becuz there are other religions in the world, it has to
mean that Christianity can't be right either. Ya I get it. :yawn:

But God has something to say about people who mock prophecy
## He has: "Fooled you again !" :) Prophecy - by which I take it you mean prediction, foretelling, rather than prophecy, forthtelling - is deterministic: it ignores free will. Prediction is meaningless: weather forecasters & business analysts & politicians do it all the time, & are often right - no Holy Spirit is needed for it.

There is in the Bible no simple relation of prediction to fulfilment: Ezekiel made some false predictions: Tyre was not taken by Nebuchadnezzar, despite the prediction of this in Ezek. 26, so that was "unsaid" in chapter 29. Despite being predicted, the desolation of Egypt did not take place. So the "argument from prediction" is a load of old rubbish :)

So why should the more recent rubbish of fantasists full of themselves be paid any more respect ? I predict that we will all be here in 2017 :)
Peter 3:2-4
2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts,
4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

5 For this they willfully forget:
.......
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The Day of the Lord


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
## The Bible is not the problem - the problem is that people keep being dead certain that their nonsense is justified by it, no matter how often they are shown up as fantasists. This is Bible abuse if anything is.

As for 2 Peter 3, & other passages, they only show that this nonsense has a long history. That sort of rubbish is valuable only as a curiosity. The fact is that none of these people knew when the world would end any more than you or or I or anybody else does, but they pretended that that they did. "Quickly" is not two thousand yeards long - and there is no indication that it is. Jesus was wrong. Paul was wrong. John was wrong. 2 Peter 3 is making the best of a bad job - and being deceitful. :( That is not Christian behaviour :(

When will the world end ? How about - 4.5 thousand million years time :) ? And by then, either we will all be extinct, or in a different galaxy - but either way, there is absolutely no point in bothering with the Second Coming. There are far more important things to bother with than that. :)
 
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hiscosmicgoldfish

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Hmm. Your take on endtimes is interesting, HairyTic. I know that Catholics are amillenialist, but I thought they believed in a second coming. I take it that's not dogma?

I'm an amillenialist.. maybe it's due to my Catholic up-bringing.. no i think it's just that it's true. Dosn't follow that the return of Christ is not important.. this time it really is on it's way.. i know a lot of people have been shouting wolf for a long time.
 
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Hairy Tic

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I'm an amillenialist.. maybe it's due to my Catholic up-bringing.. no i think it's just that it's true. Dosn't follow that the return of Christ is not important.. this time it really is on it's way..
## That's been said too often to take seriously. 500,000 years hence, if we still exist, that will still be said. :(
i know a lot of people have been shouting wolf for a long time.
## And the wolf has been rather slow to put in an appearance. So slow, as to make the very clear words about the Second Coming in the NT a bad joke: Matthew 24.34 has been very thoroughly falsified, if words have any meaning.
 
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hiscosmicgoldfish

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## That's been said too often to take seriously. 500,000 years hence, if we still exist, that will still be said. :(
## And the wolf has been rather slow to put in an appearance. So slow, as to make the very clear words about the Second Coming in the NT a bad joke: Matthew 24.34 has been very thoroughly falsified, if words have any meaning.

i give the return of Christ within the next 100 years.. but that's just my opinion.
 
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Nadiine

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## He has: "Fooled you again !" :) Prophecy - by which I take it you mean prediction, foretelling, rather than prophecy, forthtelling - is deterministic: it ignores free will. Prediction is meaningless: weather forecasters & business analysts & politicians do it all the time, & are often right - no Holy Spirit is needed for it.

There is in the Bible no simple relation of prediction to fulfilment: Ezekiel made some false predictions: Tyre was not taken by Nebuchadnezzar, despite the prediction of this in Ezek. 26, so that was "unsaid" in chapter 29. Despite being predicted, the desolation of Egypt did not take place. So the "argument from prediction" is a load of old rubbish :)

So why should the more recent rubbish of fantasists full of themselves be paid any more respect ? I predict that we will all be here in 2017 :)
## The Bible is not the problem - the problem is that people keep being dead certain that their nonsense is justified by it, no matter how often they are shown up as fantasists. This is Bible abuse if anything is.

As for 2 Peter 3, & other passages, they only show that this nonsense has a long history. That sort of rubbish is valuable only as a curiosity. The fact is that none of these people knew when the world would end any more than you or or I or anybody else does, but they pretended that that they did. "Quickly" is not two thousand yeards long - and there is no indication that it is. Jesus was wrong. Paul was wrong. John was wrong. 2 Peter 3 is making the best of a bad job - and being deceitful. :( That is not Christian behaviour :(

When will the world end ? How about - 4.5 thousand million years time :) ? And by then, either we will all be extinct, or in a different galaxy - but either way, there is absolutely no point in bothering with the Second Coming. There are far more important things to bother with than that. :)
Well for clarification, the relation of God's timetable and ours
are not the same as we know the bible says.
What's Quick for God seems forever to us in our timeframe.

But in my experience, most people who attack prophecy never have the answers as to what happens in the future. They have no viable
alternative either.

If that's the case, I'd say it's more an issue of just not knowing
if those you disagree with are untrue signs they're seeing or
putting together.

& if we think it's unimportant, then we have to ask why God
bothered adding Revelation & all the many end times (day
of the Lord) prophecies in both testaments if it's pointless.
I tend to think we CAN know alot about it
 
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Texas Lynn

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Ooops...before that, I'd need to pray that Obama actually believe in Jesus and the Bible. Ooops...even before that, I'd need to pray that Obama abandon the false gods of his fathers.

This sort of racist and zenophobic stuff is most unfortunate.

The man mocks the Bible

False.

Christians ("bitterly clinging to guns and religion")

Does not refer to "Christians" only those of a certain political persuasion.

and Christianity publically and is doing everything ANTI-CHRISTIAN (abortion

Nothing "Anti-Christian" in that policy area has occurred.

homosexuality

Likewise.

referring to Christians as extemists)

Again the religion of American extremists is not the issue.
 
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Texas Lynn

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... at the moment, when I see what I see, all I can do is pray God remove him or change ME.

People said the former about John F. Kennedy, who refused to lead on instituting social change. Their prayers were answered, and we got Lyndon Baines Johnson who used his political prowess to advance progress. Those wanting Obama gone would not be very happy with Joe Biden either. Biden, for example, is the prime author and advocate of domestic violence legislation. I've heard a possible solution to this dilemma of those favoring continued conservative domination. It refers to the line of succession, which, after President and Vice-President, goes:

3. Speaker of the House (Nancy Pelosi)
4. President Pro Tempore of the Senate (The senior member of the majority party...I don't even know who it is. Robert Byrd? Ted Kennedy?
Patrick Leahy?)
5. Secretary of State (Hillary Clinton)
6. Secretary of Defense (Robert Gates)
7 on...the rest of the cabinet secretaries, all liberal Democrats.

It goes "first we get #s 1 to 5 in the same room..." Then Gates is President. Sure, he's conservative...on national security issues. His social and economic views are largely unknown. Not much hope there for a meaningful change by coup d'etat.

As for you, the door is always open.
 
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Texas Lynn

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CaDan, to be fair to Nadiine, you need to look at it from her perspective.

When Bush got elected and then re-elected, I did a lot of praying. It was my opinion that he was taking us down the path towards the rise of the antichrist. While I didn't pray for his removal, I sure did believe (and still do to a certain extent) that he was doing the devil's work. It's pretty distressing to have to stand by and watch your leaders serve the devil.

I don't agree with Nadiine's assessment of Obama, but I can feel her pain. It's not just defeat she's feeling. It is a much more painful thing.

My call to her was a reminder of our Christian duty to our leaders, whether we like them or not. She very humbly admitted her feelings and her private prayers on the matter. I respect that.

What was Bush doing that you assessed thus?

It's always a trial to partisans to deal with being on the outs. Some act terribly. Some of the Bush hating was pretty stupid. So was the anti-Clinton stuff and so much else. The key to being the "loyal opposition" is on the first word of those two. Liberals were in the political wilderness for 12 years, 1981-1993, and again for 8 in 2001-2009. Conservatives haven't gotten used to that yet. Many still express a sense of entitlement to control the executive branch.

A very wise man once gave this advice: "As a citizen, you are to be a quiet and peaceable subject, true to your government, and just to your country; you are not to countenence disloyalty or rebellion, but patiently submit to legal auhtority, and conform with cheerfulness to the government of the country in which you live."

As to the trials we endure James the Disciple says we should count our trials as "all joy"...
 
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