Calvinist Robots

[Thekla]

Previously, interaction with God was the source of life to Adam; but, from the moment he fell it was only possible that he should recover life by the death of Christ.

Well, first though, how is his sin imputed to us /

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Previously, interaction with God was the source of life to Adam; but, from the moment he fell it was only possible that he should recover life by the death of Christ.

That is mentioned in Revelation 2

Reve 2:1 To the Messenger of the in Ephesus Outcalled write!..................The one having ear let hear! what the spirit is saying to the Outcalleds.
To the one conquering I shall be giving to him to be eating out of the wood of the life which in [*midst] of the paradise of the God.

 

[PETE_]

Yes, but then Adam was the origin of all peoples; Abraham the father of some. Even the NT identifies this. So is Abraham not a federal head ?

Anyway, Rom. 5:12 says that sin is the result of death in Greek (as Tzaousios mentioned), so I think there is a translation issue.

Without spiritual life given by God that Adam lost, there is spiritual death and thus sin

 

[PETE_]

Well, first though, how is his sin imputed to us /

We do not have that same relationship with God when we are born, therefore we are dead. Being dead we cannot know God. Christ renews that and makes us alive

 

[Thekla]

I'll try to make my question clearer:

this teaching suggests to me that our spiritual state arises from matter; ie, that material begets the spiritual.

I don't understand how Adam's spiritual state is transmitted through his "matter".

 

[Thekla]

We do not have that same relationship with God when we are born, therefore we are dead. Being dead we cannot know God. Christ renews that and makes us alive

Yes, Adam suffered a 'spiritual death' but remained physically alive. How can he transmit through his material existence an spiritual existence.

Also, is this renewal applied to the pre-resurrection righteous (the prophets and other OT friends of God) ?

 

[PETE_]

I'll try to make my question clearer:

this teaching suggests to me that our spiritual state arises from matter; ie, that material begets the spiritual.

I don't understand how Adam's spiritual state is transmitted through his "matter".

It may just be me, I am not the best source, but I will try.

I am just not getting the question what are you meaning by the material?

 

[PETE_]

His relationship to God was severed and the garden was closed up. His children did not have that same relationship with God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'll try to make my question clearer:

this teaching suggests to me that our spiritual state arises from matter; ie, that material begets the spiritual.

I don't understand how Adam's spiritual state is transmitted through his "matter".

I have always been rathered puzzled by this passage in 2 Corin 12:1.
Why would Paul be confused about being outside the body or not? Maybe this isn't for this thread

2 Corinthians 12:1 To be boasting is binding not, being expedient/profitable indeed I shall be coming yet into visions and revealings of Lord
2 I have been aware of a man in Christ before years fourteen years whether in body, not I am aware, whether out-side of the body not I am aware, the God is aware, being caught-away the such one till third heaven.
3 And I have been aware such a man whether in body whether apart/out from the body not I am aware, the God is aware.

 

[PETE_]

I have always been rathered puzzled by this passage in 2 Corin 12:1.
Why would Paul be confused about being outside the body or not? Maybe this isn't for this thread

2 Corinthians 12:1 To be boasting is binding not, being expedient/profitable indeed I shall be coming yet into visions and revealings of Lord
2 I have been aware of a man in Christ before years fourteen years whether in body, not I am aware, whether out-side of the body not I am aware, the God is aware, being caught-away the such one till third heaven.
3 And I have been aware such a man whether in body whether apart/out from the body not I am aware, the God is aware.

I think he did not know wether he was there physically or only as a vision

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think he did not know wether he was there physically or only as a vision

I would probably die of a heart attack if that ever happened to me

 

[drstevej]

Yes, Adam suffered a 'spiritual death' but remained physically alive. How can he transmit through his material existence an spiritual existence.

Also, is this renewal applied to the pre-resurrection righteous (the prophets and other OT friends of God) ?

Adam as the Federal head was the representative for the human race. His sin was legally charged (imputed) to those he represented. Spiritual death -- spiritual inability is the result.

When the Spirit regenerates and imparts faith the person goes from spiritual death to spiritual life, and his faith results in justification -- he is declared righteous because the righteousness of Christ is imputed to Him.

Prior to the cross the focus of faith was the promised Messiah and the same righteousness of Christ was imputed to them. Remember, the death of Christ was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world.

Steve

 

[Thekla]

If its ok, I'll do a combo

Without spiritual life given by God that Adam lost, there is spiritual death and thus sin

the Greek (EO ) understanding of the passage is Adam sinned/death entered the world/because of death we sin. So, children are born into a sinful/fallen world (like the Psalmist says) but will not necessarily sin (thus our sin is our responsibility, not Adam's).

It may just be me, I am not the best source, but I will try.

I am just not getting the question what are you meaning by the material?

I don't understand how we become Adam's spiritual heirs by being his physical offspring. (Abel was aware of how to worship in a manner pleasing to God, but was a son of Adam).

His relationship to God was severed and the garden was closed up. His children did not have that same relationship with God.

Indeed, the relationship was not the same, but they remembered and spoke to God after the fall; also as above. Cain and Abel present our "two options"; we can choose for God or against. The image of God is still in us, but covered.

 

[Thekla]

Adam as the Federal head was the representative for the human race. His sin was legally charged (imputed) to those he represented. Spiritual death -- spiritual inability is the result.

When the Spirit regenerates and imparts faith the person goes from spiritual death to spiritual life, and his faith results in justification -- he is declared righteous because the righteousness of Christ is imputed to Him.

Prior to the cross the focus of faith was the promised Messiah and the same righteousness of Christ was imputed to them. Remember, the death of Christ was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world.

Steve

Thank-you.

But I still don't understand how Adam's sin is charged to us, nor the precedent for the term "Federal Head" ...

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

According to Reformed theologians, what is the proper way to translate Romans 5:12 from the Greek? What implications does their translation have for their understanding of imputed guilt?

In the broad sense, there really isn't any disagreement among the Reformed with how translators have rendered Romans 5:12 in the English translations. And on the exegetical level, the options are pretty much the same. There is an interrelationship between 5:12 and 5:15-19 that contributes toward the idea of imputed sin. Here is how Douglas Moo explains the difference between exegesis of Rom 5:12 and its relation to imputed sin (corporate):

The question is then how this "individual" explanation of death is to be squared with the "coprporate" explantion of the universality of death in v. 12a-b and, with even greater emphasis, vv. 15-19. In other words, how can we logically relate the assertions "each person dies because each person sins [in the course of history]" and "one man's trespass led to condemnation for all people" (v. 18a)?

First, we could be content to posit an unresolved "tension" between the individual and the corporate emphasis. Paul in v. 12 asserts that all people die because they sin on their own account; and in vv. 18-19 he claims that they die because of Adam's sin. Paul does not resolve these two perspectives; and we do wrong to try to force a resolution that Paul himself never made. A systematic theologian may have to find a resolution; but we exegetes need not insist that Paul in this text assumes or teaches one.
(NICNT The Epistle to the Romans, p. 323-325)


LDG

 

[Thekla]

They die (mortality) because of Adam because the fall introduced death into the world.
Adam's sin introduced death, death makes it 'more likely' that we sin; the image of God in us is 'covered', we become more typically self-serving (as opposed to the love of God, exhibited in Christ), and further from God. Our sin begets a spiritual condition while we are alive, though as some were righteous sin is not shown to be 'ineluctable'.
Yet the righteous die (mortality) as mortality is an ineluctable result of the fall.

(response to LdG on the Romans passage -- duh ! I forgot to quote)

 

[drstevej]

Thank-you.

But I still don't understand how Adam's sin is charged to us, nor the precedent for the term "Federal Head" ...

Here is a great article by Dr. S. Lewis Johnson. I think it explains it quite well.

Steve

 

[Rick Otto]

Thank-you.

But I still don't understand how Adam's sin is charged to us, nor the precedent for the term "Federal Head" ...

His responsibility for & the resulting scope of his jurisdictional impact on humanity as father of the race, gave him a federal profile.

 

[Thekla]

His responsibility for & the resulting scope of his jurisdictional impact on humanity as father of the race, gave him a federal profile.

were the feds involved in water boarding

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

Here is a great article by Dr. S. Lewis Johnson. I think it explains it quite well.

Steve

Is that the same Dr. Johnson that was a pastor at a Louisiana State University Chapel?