"Fatal Flaw" in predestinary theory

[cygnusx1]

I reviewed it. Where is the refutation? All that you gave was an incorrect understanding-misrepresentation. .. and you call that a refutation??

I let the reader decide.

 

[Ormly]

no-one said God did !

You mean God is not sovereign after all? He can be arbitrary? You mean there is reason He hardens hearts and it is dependent on man?

there has NEVER been one single person who was willing to be saved who was denied :-

Is salvation the issue here or rather faith in God, which covers everyone in the world whether not they ever have chance to hear the gospel? Because they have not the opportunity, are their hearts nevertheless hardened? You prove you can't make distinctions in your every post.

the reprobate are incapable of loving God.

Are the reprobate whom God must regenerate before saving them?

which reminds me of ben's greatest difficulty ; apostates in Heb 6 CANNOT come back . (so much for free-will)

So much for your knowledge of what reprobate is.

 

[nobdysfool]

I let the reader decide.

Decided, and backed up. The graffiti from the peanut gallery notwithstanding.

 

[cygnusx1]

You mean God is not sovereign after all? Is can be arbitrary? You mean there is reason He hardens hearts and it is dependent on man?

no , no , and ........... no.

Is salvation the issue here or rather faith in God, which covers everyone in the world whether not they ever have chance to hear the gospel? Because they have not the oportunity, are their hearts nevertheless hardened? You prove you can't make distinctions in your every post. Are the reprobate whom God must regenerate before saving them?

those who haven't heard the Gospel cannot be saved.

So much for your knowledge of what reprobate is.

according to your last question YOU better fit the accusation ."Are the reprobate whom God must regenerate before saving them?"

a reprobate is a person who is not elect.

and Heb 6 says they cannot recover from apostacy..... bang goes free-will , btw , ben knows that , how does he handle it ? by saying that they can come back , and by saying that men can be born-again AGAIN and AGAIN !!!!

are you really prepared to follow ben's thinking

 

[Ormly]

I let the reader decide.

I did. I found it grossly inaccurate and full of distortion. Yor limitation is more than you are able to recognize.

 

[cygnusx1]

I did. I found it grossly inaccurate and full of distortion. Yor limitation is more than you are able to recognize.

of course you did , I have come to expect nothing except opposition from you , but your just one person soaked in Anti-Calvinist prejudices , so your not a big deal

 

[cygnusx1]

Reprobate stems from the Doctrine known as Reprobation ;

"From the very word election, it followeth unavoidably; for whether you take it as relating to this, of distinguishing between persons as touching the world to come, or with reference to God's acts of choosing this or that man to this or that office, work, or employment in this world, it still signifieth such a choosing, as that but some are therein concerned, and that therefore some are thence excluded. Are all the elect, the seed, the saved, the vessels of mercy, the chosen and peculiar? Are not some, yea the most, the children of the flesh, the rest, the lost, the vessels of wrath, of dishonour, and the children of perdition? (Rom 11:9; 1 Peter 2:8,9; Matt 10:16; 2 Sam 6:21; Psa 78:67,68; John 15:16; 2 Cor 4:3; Rom 9:21,22; John 17:12)." John Bunyan

 

[Ormly]

no , no , and ........... no.

Saying no doesn't cut it. Your foot remains where you placed it.

those who haven't heard the Gospel cannot be saved.

Now you also mean to say, God is unjust? The Bible declares that those who do righteously are righteous and we know, at least I do, that the righteous aere justified by faith in God. You now say one needs the gospel to do righteously? Jesus said He didn't come to call the righteous to salvation. Your turn.

according to your last question YOU better fit the accusation ."Are the reprobate whom God must regenerate before saving them?"

That's an interesting nonsensical answer.

a reprobate is a person who is not elect.

A reprobate is one without remedy. Even God can't save him. There, now try to remember that.

and Heb 6 says they cannot recover from apostacy..... bang goes free-will , btw , ben knows that , how does he handle it ? by saying that they can come back , and by saying that men can be born-again AGAIN nad AGAIN !!!!

So Ben and I have a disagreement in that. However, that doesn't excuse you for mis-representing his words or mine. And you do without question.

are you really prepared to follow ben's thinking

He would take me further in Christ and unto the Father, than you will. You all are content to enjoy your fellowship in the "white-knuckle club" whose only requirement for entry is a paid insurance policy. . . . at the least an illusion that it is paid up, to be recognized by the membership committee.

 

[Ormly]

of course you did , I have come to expect nothing except opposition from you , but your just one person soaked in Anti-Calvinist prejudices , so your not a big deal

And you will get it because your gospel is more than just being incomplete. It is a robbery.

 

[cygnusx1]

Saying no doesn't cut it. Your foot remains where you placed it.

Now you also mean to say, God is unjust? The Bible declares that those who do righteously are righteous and we know, at least I do, that the righteous aere justified by faith in God. You now say one needs the gospel to do righteously? Jesus said He didn't come to call the righteous to salvation. Your turn.

That's an interesting nonsensical answer.

A reprobate is one without remedy. Even God can't save him. There, now try to remember that.
So Ben and I have a disagreement in that. However, that doesn't excuse you for mis-representing his words or mine. And you do without question.

He would take me further in Christ and unto the Father, than you will. You all are content to enjoy your fellowship in the "white-knuckle club" whose only requirement for entry is a paid insurance policy. . . . at the least an illusion that it is paid up, to be recognized by the membership committee.

so you think you are Righteous and that Christ didn't come for the Righteous ...... yes I will let you figure your way out of that self-made maze

 

[cygnusx1]

And you will get because your gospel is more than just being incomplete. It is a robbery.

I could swear some words are missing from your posts , is your PC bugged , perhaps some keyboard buttons are missing , or is the wine back open

 

[Ormly]

so you think you are Righteous and that Christ didn't come for the Righteous ...... yes I will let you figure your way out of that self-made maze

Is that your best shot? You do this eveytime you backed into a corner.

Why not address the post instead of dodging using a silly, "so you think are righteous', remark. Answer the post. You've been refuted; caught in more on your mis-statements and mis-representations.

 

[cygnusx1]

Is that your best shot? You do this eveytime you backed into a corner.

Why address the post instead of dodging using a silly, "so you think are righteous', remark. Answer the post. You've been refuted; caught in more on your mis-statements and mis-representations.

I repeat , you think you are righteous , (oh yes you do !! ) , and you admit Christ didn't come for the Righteous , so ........................Christ didn't come for Ormly !! interesting deduction Ormly !

 

[Ormly]

I could swear some words are missing from your posts , is your PC bugged , perhaps some keyboard buttons are missing , or is the wine back open

Whats a 'wine back open"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Quoted by Cygnus:
that has been refuted here , because you replied with graffiti doesn't change a thing.​

Your post 916, was refuted in post 952.

Now this is the dynamic --- Calvinistic refutations are presented, they are answered and the refutations refuted, but then we hear:

Quoted by NBF:
The over-riding theme of your posts is that you have never been refuted (when it is clear that you have been), and trying to create the illusion of 100% accuracy in everything you say. If that were true, there would be no replies pointing out flawed reasoning, misquotes, inaccurate parapharasing of scriptures, illogical declarations, and avoidance of the errors seen in your theology.

Your reply to those things, if you choose to reply at all, is "not really".​

No, my replies are precise and Scripurally based. And without hostility.

Your post 916, was addressed in 952, Cygnus.

Quote:
which reminds me of ben's greatest difficulty ; apostates in Heb 6 CANNOT come back . (so much for free-will)​

Cygnus, how many times has Heb6:4-6 been addressed?

But I'm pleased to once again address it.

First, he's speaking to the saved, continuing from the end of ch5, admonishing "maturity".

Second, no case can be made for "they weren't REALLY saved" --- by carefully describing the listeners as "once-enlightened", and "tasted of the heavenly gift and the good word of God and the powers to come", and "been made PARTNERS (methochos --- see Heb3:1 & 3:14)" --- his description can ONLY describe the "saved".

(Further, "taste", geuomai, is used in Heb2:9 "Jesus tasted death" --- and Jesus really died.)

Third, no case can be made for "they did not REALLY become unsaved" --- because they cannot be "unrepentant-saved".

Fourth, no case can be made for "they weren't real"; the writer plainly says "In the CASE of those WHO..."

Fifth --- the passage only says "it is impossible to restore them to repentance". Recognizing that "adunatos" means "impossible/unable/powerless/impotent", recognizing that the reason they are "unable" to be restored to repentance is BECAUSE of their willful apostasy, the passage does NOT conflict Rom11:23: "If they do not continue in their unbelief, they will be grafted in again" (to the vine Jesus).

"Because", is clearly in view:

"It is adunatos-impossible to restore them to repentance...
BECAUSE (New International
SEEING-AS (King James)
SINCE (New American Standard)
WHILE! (NAS footnote)

...they crucify Christ anew to themselves and hold Him to open shame."

Aligning with Heb10:26, if we continue sinning willfully ...there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins...

 

[frumanchu]

I am in agreement with Ben on one thing for sure; let's keep this thread civil and on-topic please.

 

[cygnusx1]

Quoted by Cygnus:
that has been refuted here , because you replied with graffiti doesn't change a thing.​

Your post 916, was refuted in post 952.

..

ben in all honesty that is the poorest attempt at any refutation I have ever seen , it is just graffiti , one liners , some of which lack coherence , they are merely ben's ideas bashed out over and over , they don't address either my exposition nor the text at hand , so if you think that it counts , then all I can do is say , again I let the reader decide.

here's a reminder ;

Originally Posted by Ben johnson

Quote:
Nowhere does it say that the Spirit of God must indwell a believer before he can understand and believe the Gospel. The Spirit can and does open the understanding of the natural man to hear, understand and believe the gospel, by means of regenerating his heart, which is the quickening of the spirit of man by God.​

Nowhere are hearts "regenerated", BEFORE belief. It's not in 1Cor2:14, it's not in Ezk36:26-27 (because the parallel passage 11:18-21 says they turn to God and THEN He regenerates their hearts!) --- where is it?​

well , here's an example of ben throwing out verses without quoting them , perhaps hoping that his reader will not take the time to go and check these texts against what he is teaching , but , if we go and have a look to see if Ezek 36:26-27 which teaches a new heart preceeds obedience is overthrown by Ezek 11:18-21 as ben alleges , what do we discover ;

Ezekiel 11

[16] Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
[17] Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
[18] And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
[19] And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
[20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
[21] But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.


Notice the order dear reader ;

It all begins with God not man ; v16 . Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off ...... although I have scattered them.....among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.

v.17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people ,

v18 . And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.

so here we have cause and effect , God casts them far off , then after a time God gathers them ; and they shall come (not might come) and they shall take away all the detestable things (not maybe they will) ....

now that the people have been chastised , brought back and made to "clean up their land" so to speak , next comes the operation on the heart ;

[19] And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

notice this act is unconditional and Sovereign , nowhere do we read that they must have faith or must be obedient otherwise they will not get this NEW-BIRTH , (which is denied all OT saints by dispies) , no , God initiates their new birth just as He intiated their return , Grace first then obedience .... every time !

even so ;


[20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.


Notice once again the order is God's grace first granting them a new-birth in order that they will keep God's statutes and ordinances , and do them !

"but what about this verse" I here someone cry ;

[21] But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

doesn't this verse prove that a new heart follows obedience ?

No , it certainly does not , otherwise the previous verse makes no sense .

This verse underlines a Biblical doctrine of man's responsibility , even after a new heart is granted , the remains of the old sinful nature are still present , every Christian should know that there is still enough wickedness within our own hearts to condemn us night and day , if it were not for God's grace and mercy .

Verse 21 teaches that what a man sows he will reap , which principle is found also throughout the New Testament . Nowhere in this text , or any other do we find Regeneration- The New Birth following human faith or obedience , instead it is ALWAYS before.

and the Grace that saves us does not remove us from the cycle of sowing and reaping.

 

[cygnusx1]

Whats a 'wine back open"?

it doesn't matter ... back to topic I think ; how can a Christian who has the life of God within still sin ; if the fallen unregenerate can only sin , then how can the regenerate sin is ben's question.

 

[cygnusx1]

Deut 30:6 says ... And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Once again , the clear testimony of God's word is that Regeneration preceeds the "obedience of faith" , as always ... Grace first then obedience ; New heart first then faith .

We do not love God and then get elected , we are elected to love God , we are predestined to be like Christ for heaven.

Nowhere do we read that we must have faith or must be obedient otherwise we will not get this NEW-BIRTH

Our New Birth is by the Sovereign will of God , as sovereign as the wind ;

John.3

[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

The wind blows where it will , even as God Operates the New Creation wherever He will without constraints or conditions .

A brief study of Revivals will testify How Sovereign God is , whole villages and towns get saved , not even one person is left unsaved . Such is the capability of God the Holy Spirit !

I have over 30 years heard Christians pray for such a revival , but how can anyone pray to God for a revival if all depends on the willingness of sinners to be saved ?

 

[Ormly]

Deut 30:6 says ... And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

Once again , the clear testimony of God's word is that Regeneration preceeds the "obedience of faith" , as always ... Grace first then obedience ; New heart first then faith .

We do not love God and then get elected , we are elected to love God , we are predestined to be like Christ for heaven.

Nowhere do we read that we must have faith or must be obedient otherwise we will not get this NEW-BIRTH

Our New Birth is by the Sovereign will of God , as sovereign as the wind ;

John.3

[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

The wind blows where it will , even as God Operates the New Creation wherever He will without constraints or conditions .

A brief study of Revivals will testify How Sovereign God is , whole villages and towns get saved , not even one person is left unsaved . Such is the capability of God the Holy Spirit !

I have over 30 years heard Christians pray for such a revival , but how can anyone pray to God for a revival if all depends on the willingness of sinners to be saved ?

Once again, Phoo ee

FWIW: Revivals never work. If they did the first one would have. Besides, God never sends revival. He sends Himself. I believe that is the reason revivals are little more than 'pep rallies'. God doesn't show up.