Dinosaur footprints destroy flood geology.

[thaumaturgy]

They do when God gets in their way.

When does "God" get in the way of science? Honestly, name a scientific model that works better to explain the data when "God" is factored in than without the "God Factor".

But before you do that there's one little detail of describing the "God Factor" such that it can be utilized in this model. Explain the "God Factor" such that all objective observers will be able to experience this factor or its effects the same way, and further explain the limitations on this factor such that we can model it and how it will do whatever it will do so that we can use it in any model we like.

It's easy, right?

 

[ChordatesLegacy]

What are "so called flood deposits"?

So called flood deposits are anything older than 65 million year, or younger than ~600 million years acording to YECs, which can not be true because you would not have fossil tracks, fossil roots, fossil burrows etc in Noah’s flood deposits.

Quoted from here LINK

Palaeontologists of the University of Bonn have made an unusual find in the open-cast mining area around Garzweiler. In the path cleared by an excavator they discovered strange accumulations of fossil nuts. Their theory is that a hamster had hoarded food in its burrow and the passages leading to it so as to have something to nibble on in the cold season - more than 17 million years ago. This makes the find the oldest larder ever to be discovered.


Dr. Gee is holding a sediment peel made from the vertical face at the quarry site:
left, cross section through a gallery; right, cross section through a chamber; scattered are longitudinal sections through fossil roots originating from the fossil soil horizon above.


This cannnot be flood deposits,


EDIT: ithink this is post flood by YEC logic, but you get the drift

 

[Molal]

So called flood deposits are anything older than 65 million year, or younger than ~600 million years acording to YECs, which can not be true because you would not have fossil tracks, fossil roots, fossil burrows etc in Noah’s flood deposits.

Quoted from here LINK

Palaeontologists of the University of Bonn have made an unusual find in the open-cast mining area around Garzweiler. In the path cleared by an excavator they discovered strange accumulations of fossil nuts. Their theory is that a hamster had hoarded food in its burrow and the passages leading to it so as to have something to nibble on in the cold season - more than 17 million years ago. This makes the find the oldest larder ever to be discovered.


Dr. Gee is holding a sediment peel made from the vertical face at the quarry site:
left, cross section through a gallery; right, cross section through a chamber; scattered are longitudinal sections through fossil roots originating from the fossil soil horizon above.


This cannnot be flood deposits,


EDIT: ithink this is post flood by YEC logic, but you get the drift

That's cool, thanks.

I happen to Know Carole!

 

[AV1611VET]

Explain the "God Factor" such that all objective observers will be able to experience this factor or its effects the same way...

I was about to copy-and-paste a map of Israel, until I caught that all in your above challenge, and [instantly] realized that if scientists can't even agree unanimously on a planet, they sure aren't going to agree unanimously on a country. That's why Pluto was settled by vote.

You're purposely raising the bar too high, as to exclude the miraculous.

 

[thaumaturgy]

I was about to copy-and-paste a map of Israel, until I caught that all in your above challenge, and [instantly] realized that if scientists can't even agree unanimously on a planet, they sure aren't going to agree unanimously on a country. That's why Pluto was settled by vote.

If it helps, I think I'd settle for the majority of observers be able to experience it the same. In the history of humanity there has never been a single "conception" of this factor, yet religion has been with us from the beginning. Good work so far on the believers' part!

But I can see you've gone off the rails again around planets and definitions, despite this being explained to you so many times it calls into question your literacy, so I won't bother.

You're purposely raising the bar too high, as to exclude the miraculous.

I will most assuredly "exclude" the miraculous. You see, AV, science never works in the miraculous. It is exactly the fact that the gullible believe in miracles that means science has to work harder to show you when something isn't a miracle.

The history of almost all of human endeavor in regards to science has been to push back the "mystical" and reaveal the "real".

There are always going to be unanswered questions, but pretty much every miracle which has been scientifically investigated has been found lacking as to the "miraculous" nature. The only reason any miracles still are considered miracles is probably because they haven't been thoroughly investigated.

It's the credulous who cling to "prayer soaked miracle prayer cloths" which are really nothing more than an optical illusion or printers' "trick" intended to convince the gullible that a miracle is happening in their hands. It's through science we know that there is no miracle here to be seen. It is through skepticism that we keep ourselves free from being taken advantage of OR from our inherent simple "desire for the miraculous" which causes us to see things that aren't there and see faces in the clouds. We are a pattern-matching ape with an imagination. A bad combination unless you temper it with some healthy skepticism.

Give me science any day over a single miracle. Science works in the long-run, miracles don't.

(And don't even get me started on Hume and the philosophical arguments against the possibility of miracles).

But further, why in your god's name, do we need "miracles" to show this greater truth? Why can't this greatest truth known to humanity be built in and patently obvious to all?

Why shroud things in mystery and the "supernatural" unless the game requires ignorance on the part of the weaker member of the deal (that being "humans").

 

[AV1611VET]

But further, why in your god's name, do we need "miracles" to show this greater truth? Why can't this greatest truth known to humanity be built in and patently obvious to all?

How then would He show that He is transcendent?

 

[thaumaturgy]

How then would He show that He is transcendent?

Does he have to? If he does he's done a pretty poor job of it so far. Miracles are only meaningful in this regard so long as you don't ever see miracles in any other religion. But we know they see miracles and signs in nature all over the religious spectrum.

Do you find the Milk Miracle of India compelling enough to worship Ganesha?

I didn't think so. How could they be so foolish to believe that miracle? It's hilarious! But our miracles must be transcendent and amazingly real. Selah.

 

[AV1611VET]

Does he have to?

Yes --- otherwise He couldn't do some of the things He said He is going to do.

How can this be done intra-dimensionally:

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Or this ---

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Yes --- otherwise He couldn't do some of the things He said He is going to do.

How can this be done intra-dimensionally:



Or this ---

I think you missed the point. If God is the most important concept and our appreciation of said deity our only meaningful activity, why should there be any need for "transcendence" or anything like that?

Why must we have this duality between the natural and supernatural?

Unless, of course, it's a big "game" in which God holds all the cards and we have to guess what is in his hands based on vague "clues" provided us not by God but by people claiming to speak on his behalf.

Sorry, but I don't like "games" like that. If that is how the game must be played then maybe God could play it as a form of solitaire and leave us simple apes out of it.

 

[RobertByers]

Molal
I have trouble with your posts because they don't discuss the merits of the thread often.
This is a forum for origin issues. No peer-reviews are needed. Its on the merits of the case and nor other claims to authority.

It is up to your side to show the facts that make present geology doctrine.
Then creationists take it on.
What is your favorite geology fact that makes your case that the rocks are old?

 

[Skaloop]

What is your favorite geology fact that makes your case that the rocks are old?

I'm no geologist, but I found lake varves to be a very strong argument once I heard about and researched them.

Oh, and also every scientific investigation or experiment ever done on the matter.

 

[mrghost]

1. There were lots of Dinosaurs Before Adam and Eve. The gas you burn in your car is the old de-composed bodies of giant reptiles and vegatation sinking down underground over the centuries.

2. Man was not the first life form on earth, and that is what the bible plainly states, He was the last...I believe....

3. The Bible does not say that God made the earth 6 day in a row one after another, People always assume that.
One Day or event He could have made the universe, then took off for a few million years.

4. The sencond Event, Could have made the water systems, and then did something else for another zillion years.

5 The 3rd Event could have been, The lower life forms, Fish, Dino's Then went to do something else for another 100 million years....

6 Never Does the Bible say or imply That He Made each event one after another with out stopping. Peoples Assumptions.

7. Who wrote these events Down Moses. Was he around When the Dino's were passing Gas, do to a Sour Stomatch..Pine cone poop...

8 People are always filling in-between the lines. Assumptions not based on Facts...I have collected Dino's Bones, They are a fact, They were here Longer than mankind, Their Dead bodies are all over planet...

9. Moses did not have the Words, Discriptions, or ways of getting his point across with out some, DUH... head filling in some great interpatation.

Back then; they just did not have the mental tools to completely and accurately describe what needed to be noted, Therefore, Vast deviation of the story, at the end..... Bobby has an OREO cookie story.

10. I am a Firm Believer In God Almighty, and the old and New testament.
And there are many things Hidden from Mankind on purpose, God has His reasons.

I despise it when people claim to know the Bible. But don't even read it.

I know people that did not believe there was a AIDS VIRUS untill people started dying. There are people who don't believe Dino's ever existed, But yet they burn plenty of gas that the Dono's Made, How Stupid can a man get.? that is beyond wonder. Sometimes people act just like Cows. But half as Smart....

God Made The Dino's...Get over it. God made allot of things you will never know about, cause you suffer from tunnel Vision...Duh...

There were cavemen, Several types; we have their bones, way older, and before Adam and Eve. And God Told Adam & EVE to RE-DO the earth. You cant' RE-DO it if it has never been done...Man may have been on this planet before, and got wiped out several times...Thats why God Said RE-DO, Simply do it again. Man was not the first up-right walking talking animal on earth, that is a no brainer....

THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY OR IMPLY GOD MADE EVERYTHING IN 6 EVENTS IN A ROW NON STOP. PEOPLE ASSUME IT. THEIR COMPREHENSION SKILLS ARE ZIP. THEY NEED TO GET OFF THE CHEAP DRUGS, THEY ARE DOING; THAT IS IMPAIRING THEIR ABILITY TO REALLY SEE WHAT GOD WAS TRYING TO TELL MOSES. WAKE UP PEOPLE....Mrghost.....

 

[beamishboy]

I enjoyed looking at the pics of all the dinosaur footprints. I have no problem with accepting an old earth and evolution. Many prelates in my church accept these things too. A lot in Genesis was nothing more than mere fable. God allowed it to be in because it doesn't affect his salvation plan one bit.

I find AV1611VET's statement that Pluto was settled by vote amusing. But it's this belittling of science that is unfortunate. We Christians appear silly and stone-aged. My hope is that all Christians will realise that you can believe any bits of history you like but at least we can agree on the broad teachings of Jesus. It doesn't matter if you believe Napoleon beat Nelson (which he did NOT). Historical facts are not important for the faith; ignorance of them just makes the Christian look silly. The same with facts on evolution and the age of the earth.

I've read the story of Kurt Wise and I think it's a very sad story. If I were him, I would've been wiser.

 

[Chalnoth]

9. Moses did not have the Words, Discriptions, or ways of getting his point across with out some, DUH... head filling in some great interpatation.

Back then; they just did not have the mental tools to completely and accurately describe what needed to be noted, Therefore, Vast deviation of the story, at the end..... Bobby has an OREO cookie story.

Sure, but why wasn't he able to get anything right? There are many things that God could have said that would have been correct and yet stated in plain language. Here's one example of one such attempt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qymoktf0wY

 

[AV1611VET]

I find AV1611VET's statement that Pluto was settled by vote amusing. But it's this belittling of science that is unfortunate.

Just FYI:

There has been some resistance within the astronomical community toward the reclassification. Alan Stern, principal investigator with NASA's New Horizons mission to Pluto, has publicly derided the IAU resolution, stating that "the definition stinks, for technical reasons." Stern's current contention is that by the terms of the new definition Earth, Mars, Jupiter, and Neptune, all of which share their orbits with asteroids, would be excluded. His other claim is that because less than five percent of astronomers voted for it, the decision was not representative of the entire astronomical community. Marc W. Buie of the Lowell observatory has voiced his opinion on the new definition on his website and is one of the petitioners against the definition. Others have supported the IAU. Mike Brown, the astronomer who discovered Eris, said "through this whole crazy circus-like procedure, somehow the right answer was stumbled on. It’s been a long time coming. Science is self-correcting eventually, even when strong emotions are involved."

 

[AV1611VET]

THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY OR IMPLY GOD MADE EVERYTHING IN 6 EVENTS IN A ROW NON STOP. PEOPLE ASSUME IT.

Yes, It does.

 

[beamishboy]

Just FYI:

But that is not a fair argument. In the case of Pluto, it was merely a question of classification. To belittle science this way is bad cos people will think all Christians are duffers who stay away from science. But we have great scientists such as Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Research who is a fine Bible-believing Christian who accepts the truth of evolution. We must make it clear to the world that we aren't twerps. The seat of education and science came from Christianity.

 

[Baggins]

The seat of education and science came from Christianity.

Tell it to the Greeks

 

[Tomk80]

We must make it clear to the world that we aren't twerps.

Hehe, success in convincing AV about this, who seems to think Christians must do their utmost to show that Christians are twerps.

 

[AV1611VET]

But that is not a fair argument. In the case of Pluto, it was merely a question of classification. To belittle science this way is bad cos people will think all Christians are duffers who stay away from science. But we have great scientists such as Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Research who is a fine Bible-believing Christian who accepts the truth of evolution. We must make it clear to the world that we aren't twerps. The seat of education and science came from Christianity.

Was Pluto settled by vote?