venerating icons, statues, etc

[MoNiCa4316]

I was thinking about how many Protestants believe that it is wrong to venerate (ie: show respect to), say - an icon or statue or painting of Jesus, because that is 'worshipping the image, not Christ'.

I have a question for you guys.

If someone told you to show disrespect an image of Christ, would you do it?

why or why not?

(and if you say 'no', why, wouldn't you just be disrespecting the image, not the Lord Himself? if you disagree with this though, then why should it be any different with veneration? When we venerate images of Christ or of His Saints..we are not thinking about the images themselves, but the people who are depicted on them..and whatever honour we (seemingly) give to the images (the symbols) actually goes to the Lord - and that is what we intend)

hope my question makes sense!

God bless

monica

 

[MamaZ]

If someone asked me to disrespect and image of Christ? Such as what?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

hope my question makes sense!

I suppose that depends on whether you are a "C"atholic or "Protest-ant".
I vew the Bible was the Word of YHWH and His Christ Jesus but does that mean I bow down to it or worship it?
If a non-Christian takes it and burns it or does some rather "vile" things to it, how would you, as a Christian react?

For example, I like this picture [which a Catholic posted on another thread] and would hang it on a wall if I had it, is it considered an "idol"? Thoughts?

 

[BigNorsk]

You mean would I disrespect an image of someone of European race that you told me was supposedly Jesus?

Well I would not disrespect it in deference to you the weaker brother, but I would not worship it in deference to God.

Marv

 

[MoNiCa4316]

hmm well oki how about I put my question in slightly different terms

let's say you saw someone ..I dunno, let's say they're burning a picture of Christ or something.

Do you think this would offend the Lord.

If so, that means that what they did to the picture got attributed to Jesus (they disrespected Him).

So if disrespect to an image/symbol gets attributed to what it represents...why not veneration (respect)?

this would mean that when Catholics and Orthodox venerate images...we are not worshipping the image, but Christ on the image.

hope that makes sense more..

 

[calluna]

I was thinking about how many Protestants believe that it is wrong to venerate (ie: show respect to), say - an icon or statue or painting of Jesus, because that is 'worshipping the image, not Christ'.

I have a question for you guys.

If someone told you to show disrespect an image of Christ, would you do it?

why or why not?

When people, especially Americans who usually know zilch about the world as a whole, come onto the 'net and say that 'we' don't worship icons/statues, they are fabricating, simply because they cannot know what goes on in the minds of the millions in poor countries. They can't even prove that they are telling the truth about themselves. There is a well-known photo of Mr Wojtyla on bended knee before a crowned statue of 'Mary' (who never looks anything like a Jewess in the 'Tradition' tradition). This sort of thing, and the experience of those who have taken the gospel to countries such as Chile, Portugal, Romania and Russia, does not encourage Protestants to believe this assertion. What is absolutely certain is that these religious people leave themselves open to charges of idolatry, and that alone, imv, is a grave irresponsibility and an offence.

But there is more bad news. Icons and statues are, imv, a subtle form of mendacity. Many show scenes of Bible events that are distortions, heresies in paint. Pictures of 'Jesus' never look remotely like what the artisans of Nazareth took to be one of their own, but, usually, an effete intellectual uninvolved with the practical matters of the world. So if someone said to me, 'Show disrespect to this image of Jesus," I would have no compunction about taking a dangerous lie out of the world, provided that my intent was known to witnesses, of course.

It is of course out of the question to engage in wanton destruction of other peoples' property, or to hurt their feelings unnecessarily. But if there were no witnesses, and if the property was my own, I would have no hesitation about using an icon as firewood, no more than I would a painting that I did not like, or a KJV 'Bible'. Especially in cold weather!

 

[MamaZ]

If someone is burning a picture of Christ why would that bother me? My Jesus is not in a picture or icon. Neither is my mother in the picture I have.. So to burn a material posession does not bother me..Material possessions will pass away..

 

[MoNiCa4316]

If someone is burning a picture of Christ why would that bother me? My Jesus is not in a picture or icon. Neither is my mother in the picture I have.. So to burn a material posession does not bother me..Material possessions will pass away..

I did not ask if it would bother you, I asked if it would offend Him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

It is of course out of the question to engage in wanton destruction of other peoples' property, or to hurt their feelings unnecessarily. But if there were no witnesses, and if the property was my own, I would have no hesitation about using an icon as firewood, no more than I would a painting that I did not like, or a KJV 'Bible'. Especially in cold weather!

I heard someone comment one time that if Obama got into Office, it would be safer to have both a Koran and KJV in your car when traveling. Both can be used to make a nice warm fire if ya get stuck in cold weather.

 

[calluna]

I heard someone comment one time that if Obama got into Office, it would be safer to have both a Koran and KJV in your car when traveling. Both can be used to make a nice warm fire if ya get stuck in cold weather.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

When people, especially Americans who usually know zilch about the world as a whole, come onto the 'net and say that 'we' don't worship icons/statues, they are fabricating, simply because they cannot know what goes on in the minds of the millions in poor countries. They can't even prove that they are telling the truth about themselves. There is a well-known photo of Mr Wojtyla on bended knee before a crowned statue of 'Mary' (who never looks anything like a Jewess in the 'Tradition' tradition). This sort of thing, and the experience of those who have taken the gospel to countries such as Chile, Portugal, Romania and Russia, does not encourage Protestants to believe this assertion. What is absolutely certain is that these religious people leave themselves open to charges of idolatry, and that alone, imv, is a grave irresponsibility and an offence.

You said that we can't know what goes on in the minds of all those people. Sure, I agree. But when you say that they are worshipping the statues etc aren't you saying that you know their hearts? Let's say someone kneels before a "crowned statue of Mary". How do you know that they are "worshipping the image", or showing respect to the Mother of Christ? Kneeling is simply a physical way of showing respect. A Protestant might say "I respect Mary", a Catholic might say the same thing but by a physical action, instead of words. That is all.. something may look like worship to you, but may not be worship in reality! God does not judge by the externals!

But there is more bad news. Icons and statues are, imv, a subtle form of mendacity. Many show scenes of Bible events that are distortions, heresies in paint. Pictures of 'Jesus' never look remotely like what the artisans of Nazareth took to be one of their own, but, usually, an effete intellectual uninvolved with the practical matters of the world. So if someone said to me, 'Show disrespect to this image of Jesus," I would have no compunction about taking a dangerous lie out of the world, provided that my intent was known to witnesses, of course.

Does it matter so much if the images are historically accurate? (I mean in terms of how the people actually look like etc). I believe that Jesus has dark hair, dark eyes, and olive coloured skin. But if I see a picture of Him with blue eyes, for example, that wouldn't change for me the fact that the artist meant this to be Jesus, or that it is a representation of Him. Because if someone paints Him with brown eyes instead of blue...it still wouldn't look 100% like the real Jesus, because we don't know how He really looks like! Paintings are not photographs, and are not meant to be.

Orthodox icons are not meant at all to look realistic, and are very stylized. But - that doesn't matter because they have a different function and purpose than photographs. They are there to capture the spiritual reality, not visible characteristics.

Also I don't see what you mean by "heresies"....

It is of course out of the question to engage in wanton destruction of other peoples' property, or to hurt their feelings unnecessarily. But if there were no witnesses, and if the property was my own, I would have no hesitation about using an icon as firewood, no more than I would a painting that I did not like, or a KJV 'Bible'. Especially in cold weather!

hmm oki we disagree there..
thanks for sharing your thoughts

peace
monica

 

[D'Ann]

If someone is burning a picture of Christ why would that bother me? My Jesus is not in a picture or icon. Neither is my mother in the picture I have.. So to burn a material posession does not bother me..Material possessions will pass away..

How about if you caught a person burning a picture of your mother? Or your father or brother or sister, how would that effect your heart?

For me personally, if someone burned a picture of my mom or dad or siblings or kids in front of me... I would want to kick their butts.

When I watch a movie about the Civil Rights Movement and I see a scene when there is a cross burning on someone's lawn... that really gets my blood boiling too... I always felt this way, even before I was Catholic.

God bless

 

[calluna]

You said that we can't know what goes on in the minds of all those people. Sure, I agree. But when you say that they are worshipping the statues

Wait until I say it. Naughty.

 

[D'Ann]

p.s.: I certainly do not worship my parents or siblings or kids or husband... and even though I worship Christ and am grateful for his Sacrifice... I don't worship "the cross" either... but I do worship Jesus. There is a difference. I do appreciate the cross in what it symbolizes and I even wear a cross because it reminds me of Jesus. So, in essence... no, I don't worship the cross or my family, but I do love them and cherish them and respect them and adore them as my loved ones...(well, except the cross, it's not one of my loved ones, but it represents Jesus who I do love). I even feel this way about my friends too.

There is a difference between worshipping a symbol or thingie or person versus not, but appreciating what that thingie represents or just loving a family or friend...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

I heard someone comment one time that if Obama got into Office, it would be safer to have both a Koran and KJV in your car when traveling. Both can be used to make a nice warm fire if ya get stuck in cold weather. ​

How about if you caught a person burning a picture of your mother? Or your father or brother or sister, how would that effect your heart?

For me personally, if someone burned a picture of my mom or dad or siblings or kids in front of me... I would want to kick their butts.

When I watch a movie about the Civil Rights Movement and I see a scene when there is a cross burning on someone's lawn... that really gets my blood boiling too... I always felt this way, even before I was Catholic.

God bless

They are of the world, we are in the world as Jesus was, but we are also not of the world.

They all need JESUS!!!!

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to D'Ann again!

John 8:23 And He said to them, "Ye out of the below/katw <2736> are, I out of the above/anw <507> am. Ye out of this, the world, are. I not am out of the world, this.
24 I said then to ye, that ye shall be dying/apoqaneisqe <599> (5695) in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.' [Deut 28:13]

 

[D'Ann]

another p.s.: When I was Protestant, I had no problem kneeling down at the altar in front of the cross to be prayed for and/or to pray... I wasn't worshipping "the cross" as a symbol, but the cross truly did remind me of Jesus. There is a big difference here.

 

[D'Ann]

They are of the world, we are in the world as Jesus was, but we are also not of the world.

They all need JESUS!!!!

John 8:23 And He said to them, "Ye out of the below/katw <2736> are, I out of the above/anw <507> am. Ye out of this, the world, are. I not am out of the world, this.
24 I said then to ye, that ye shall be dying/apoqaneisqe <599> (5695) in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.' [Deut 28:13]

Well of course they do... but if they burned a picture of my loved ones... sorry, but my first instinct would be to starting swinging and ask questions later. Sorry, it's my Irish and German temper that would get the best of me in that sort of situation.

After I took care of business, then of course, I would pray for them...

LOL (sort of kidding). In the old days, I would start swinging.

Jesus has helped me to do a lot more praying instead of swinging.

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote:
I was thinking about how many Protestants believe that it is wrong to venerate (ie: show respect to), say - an icon or statue or painting of Jesus, because that is 'worshipping the image, not Christ'.

I have a question for you guys.

If someone told you to show disrespect an image of Christ, would you do it?

why or why not?

(and if you say 'no', why, wouldn't you just be disrespecting the image, not the Lord Himself? if you disagree with this though, then why should it be any different with veneration? When we venerate images of Christ or of His Saints..we are not thinking about the images themselves, but the people who are depicted on them..and whatever honour we (seemingly) give to the images (the symbols) actually goes to the Lord - and that is what we intend)


I am not a protestant but you have no other word for me so ,- here goes ...

Why would I do something just because someone told me ? Am I a puppet ? In this respect , I wouldn't do it simply because someone told me to do it .

I assume that you are speaking of something that was *made* to look like what they *think* His image could be . We dont know what His actual image was . And , almost all of the Catholic pictures that I have seen have Him depicted as a European because they don't want to think of Him as a Jew . That is - from what I have seen .

Anyway , when someone gives me an x-mas card or easter card with what appears as an interpretation of His image , I never have a problem placing them in the trash on top of nasty food or even ripping them in pieces . It has nothing to do with Him .

I do disagree with your last statement . But , that is the reason why you started the thread in the first place - there is disagreement .

 

[New_Wineskin]

quote:
let's say you saw someone ..I dunno, let's say they're burning a picture of Christ or something.

Do you think this would offend the Lord.


I don't see why .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

quote:
let's say you saw someone ..I dunno, let's say they're burning a picture of Christ or something.

Do you think this would offend the Lord.


I don't see why .

Perhaps maybe if it was a Christ-ian burning it it might, but then how do ya "murder" a picture?.

James 5:6 Ye condemn, ye Murder/efoneusate <5407> (5656) the Righteous-One, not He is resisting to Ye.

Revelation 9:21 And not they reform/repent/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the Murders/fonwn <5408> of them, nor out from their sorceries,...........

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

I heard someone comment one time that if Obama got into Office, it would be safer to have both a Koran and KJV in your car when traveling. Both can be used to make a nice warm fire if ya get stuck in cold weather. ​