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Poll - Once Saved Always Saved

Do you believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved?

  • No, I don't believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.

  • Yes, I do believe in the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved.


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tblaine74

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The post I made was the demonstration.
Your new question continuing in senseless contention is the cop out from common sense & reasonableness.

Gotta admire your love of rhetoric tho, even if it is unrequited.

What is new about my question? I have only asked for a demonstration of what has been suggested. Instead of providing one, you only state that you have, and if I ask you to point out this “demonstration”, what are you going to point to? If I ask you to demonstrate my “rhetoric”, you would likely say that it needs no demonstration, or that you already have demonstrated it, or anything other than actually demonstrating it. You claim that your post provides a demonstration. For what? Certainly not anything related to how a “Christian” “by definition” answers the questions it was proposed to have answered. If your posts demonstrate anything, it is precisely that you do not want to attempt to demonstrate anything.
 
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tblaine74

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I've already demonstrated it. Why should I explain the obvious?

I had a girlfriend once who told me basically the same thing: “If you don’t know, then I’m not going to tell you”. Ok Jaws, just don’t expect me to send you any flowers.
 
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CShephard53

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I had a girlfriend once who told me basically the same thing: “If you don’t know, then I’m not going to tell you”. Ok Jaws, just don’t expect me to send you any flowers.
That's amazing. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that it is quite obvious to any thinking person who is reading and following this thread that a Christ follower is not going to deny the authority of Christ or His teachings. If you think you can show otherwise, be my guest. But do not misrepresent what I am saying again.
 
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pw89

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Hey everyone,

Jaws/Rick, could you post up some verses for the concept/idea of "Once Saved Always Saved?"

I know that you, Jaws, mentioned John 10:28-30, I think that it is important to mention verse 27, before those three verses in John 10, as well.

Also, 1 John 5:11-13 is another one.

In fact, the entire section of 1 John 5: 1-13 is a good section to read, in regards to this subject, in my opinion.

Could you or anyone post up some more?

Thank You.

-pw
 
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Apollo Celestio

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..Yes, and no. The faith that brings about salvation, how can one loose it? In a sense, when one apostatizes, were they ever really saved, and God is also faithful. I voted yes, but my opinion isn't quite yet concrete. Guess this raises the question of the apostolic faiths and their views of justification. This "saved" business is foreign to them, is it not?
 
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Rick Otto

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1 John 1:19: They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

1 John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.
No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

Jeremiah 32:38-41 (Concerning the Promise of the New Covenant) "They will be my people, and I will be their God. I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. I will rejoice in doing them good and will assuredly plant them in this land with all my heart and soul."


John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

John 6:37"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (Consider this with Jeremiah 32:40 above)

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

Romans 6:8 "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."

Romans 8:9-10 "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness."

Romans 8:28-30 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."


1Cor 1:8,9 "He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful."

1Cor 3:15"If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

2Cor 1:21,22 "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

Ephesians 1:5 "he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--"

Ephesians 1:11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,"

Eph 1:13,14 "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-- to the praise of his glory."

Hebrews 7:25"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

1Pet 1:3-5 "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-- kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time." (xref Eph 1:14)

1 John 5:4 "for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith." 5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
 
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CShephard53

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I'd like to add one to the long list:
1 John - all of it, really, gives a good idea of what it means to be a Christian. Keeping what you received and remaining. If you can't find it in you to love your bros and sisters, then you're not really in Christ. All that fun jazz.
 
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tblaine74

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I'm saying that it is quite obvious to any thinking person who is reading and following this thread that a Christ follower is not going to deny the authority of Christ or His teachings.

I see that you have offered this as if this is what we have been discussing. Nice diversion. Let me remind you what has been suggested.

“Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?”

“If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?”

“If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?”

“Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?”

“If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?”

“If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?”

“If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?”

“If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?”

These are all questions that you state are answerable “by definition” of a Christian. Yet, when you were asked to demonstrate this, you said you didn’t need to because it’s obvious. Your unwillingness, or inability, to demonstrate the “obvious” doesn’t bode well for your suggestion. If you want to continue to dodge what you have suggested, that’s fine by me. However, I’m going to hold you to what you’ve said, until you tell me that I shouldn’t.
 
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forgivenWretch

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http://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm

Once Saved, Always Saved – The Biblical Evidence
The Bible teaches “once saved, always saved” -- that we can be saved once and for all only through a repentant, saving faith in Jesus Christ. Once a person has accepted Christ as Savior, they may wonder if it is possible to lose that salvation. What if they commit a sin? What if they commit a lot of sins? What if they do something very, very wrong? Is it possible to be saved, and then lose that salvation? Fortunately, the answer is a resounding “no.” Once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, he/she is forever saved. This fact is referred to as the doctrine of “eternal security,” often summarized as “once saved, always saved.”

There are several reasons why a person can be confident in their “eternal security.” First and foremost is the evidence of Scripture. John 3:15-18 says about Christ: “The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm

Scriptural passages (Ephesians 2:8-9, Isaiah 64:6) indicate that our attempts at good deeds will never earn us a place in heaven. We cannot make up for our past, present, or future sins by doing good works. A saved believer will, as a natural product of their faith, shun sin and practice good works (James 2:18). If “once saved, always saved” is not true, then by necessity we are saved both by our faith and our works. If we can do sinful things, or not do good things (James 4:17) and lose our security, then our good deeds are a part of our salvation. This is concept is contradictory to Scripture. It also creates an unlivable scenario where we have to try to do enough good to outweigh our sinful natures. The doctrine of “eternal security” goes hand in hand with the doctrine of “saved by faith alone.” To deny eternal security is to endorse a “faith plus works” salvation system.
 
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Rick Otto

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Like the word "all", the word "salvation" has different senses.
In the eternal, unchanging sense, God determined whom He would save before creation began. Being omniscient, omnipotent, & omnipresent eliminates the possibility of chance & randomness from His vantage point. From our perspective, chance is the only way to explain things we don't completely understand in the way God can & does.
That being said, the scriptural evidence is found in more than one place, but Ephesians reveals what I've just said here:
Eph 1:4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6:
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Our salvation is according to His will, not ours. God does not react dependant upon a creature of His own making.
Nothing resists His totaly sovereign will.

The immediate objection is usually that that would render us robots without a will of our own. Nothing could be further from the truth. Predestination does not eliminate personal will, it simply directs it.

Further in this objection is the query:", Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? "(Romans 9)
How can He judge us guilty of what He has determined for us to do?
The answer is extremely offensive to those who believe they are the captains of their own destiny as it pertains to the jurisdictional fact of God's total sovereignity:"20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? "
Leaving us with only the ability to ask "Why would He do that?"
Answer:22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24: Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
A verse that illustrates that God's sovereignity doesn't cancel out personal responsibility is this one:
Ac 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
We can conclude that motivation is the key.
God is responsible for the murder of His Son, but He is not guilty of it because it was an evil He created with good intent. His good intentions are toward those He loves, not toward those He hates.
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
When God creates evil, He does it out of good intention. When men act wickedly, they do it out of evil intent.
The idea that we are so valuable to him that He would give us self-sovereignity (free will) is narcisstic in the extreme.
All the scriptural exhortations & admonitions about our behavior are not disproving predestination & proving free will. Predestination is not an excuse for bad behavior or apathy.

We experience the grace of election when we are regenerated by saving grace, which is when we are first thoroughly convicted of both His love & our desperate need for it, followed by our desire to know & obey Him, not out of fear so much as out of gratitude. To say that our salvation depends in any way upon ourselves is to say Christ's death only made our salvation a possibilty & that it is ourselves who make it a reality, earning it by our obedience. That eliminates salvation as an act of mercy & makes it an act of merit.

The verses that sound like you can lose your salvation are usualy talking about losing rewards in heaven, not losing your ticket in, a ticket that Christ purchased Himself on the cross.
 
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forgivenWretch

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God's Plan of Salvation The Bible says there is only one way to Heaven

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6)
Good works cannot save you.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Trust Jesus Christ today! Here's what you must do:
  1. Admit you are a sinner. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23)
    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12)
    "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:10)
  2. Be willing to turn from sin (repent). Jesus said: "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:5)
    "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Acts 17:30)
  3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you, was buried, and rose from the dead. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)
    "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners. Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)
    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." (Romans 10:9)
  4. Through prayer, invite Jesus into your life to become your personal Saviour. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:10)
    "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13)
What to pray:

Dear God, I am a sinner and need forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ shed His precious blood and died for my sin. I am willing to turn from sin. I now invite Christ to come into my heart and life as my personal Saviour. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12)
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
 
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chestertonrules

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Matthew 25

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'
9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'
10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' 13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
 
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Rick Otto

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That makes it sound like "Only The Strong Survive" - The Law of the Jungle, the gospel of works not the doctrines of grace & election.
1Jo 5:5 - Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
 
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CShephard53

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I see that you have offered this as if this is what we have been discussing. Nice diversion. Let me remind you what has been suggested.

“Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?”

“If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?”

“If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?”

“Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?”

“If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?”

“If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?”

“If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?”

“If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?”

These are all questions that you state are answerable “by definition” of a Christian. Yet, when you were asked to demonstrate this, you said you didn’t need to because it’s obvious. Your unwillingness, or inability, to demonstrate the “obvious” doesn’t bode well for your suggestion. If you want to continue to dodge what you have suggested, that’s fine by me. However, I’m going to hold you to what you’ve said, until you tell me that I shouldn’t.
And let me remind you that Christ does not teach us to do any of the possibilities you have suggested, so one cannot be a Christ follower and do any of the above. That is obvious. If you think you can 'hold me' to your idea of explaining every small little detail as if I were talking to a child you are sadly mistaken. I have no need to explain things to you when the meaning is clear already. I'm not teaching a 3rd grader, last I checked, and I am not going to act like it. Your suggestion that I can't explain it is not grounded in anything factual and I would appreciated it if you did not misrepresent the facts.
 
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CShephard53

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I need to understand some “meanings” here, before I can begin to understand some of the things that are being suggested. What does it mean to be saved, and how does one enter this state?
Justification, sanctification, and glorification.
 
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tblaine74

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And let me remind you that Christ does not teach us to do any of the possibilities you have suggested, so one cannot be a Christ follower and do any of the above. That is obvious. If you think you can 'hold me' to your idea of explaining every small little detail as if I were talking to a child you are sadly mistaken. I have no need to explain things to you when the meaning is clear already. I'm not teaching a 3rd grader, last I checked, and I am not going to act like it. Your suggestion that I can't explain it is not grounded in anything factual and I would appreciated it if you did not misrepresent the facts.

This isn’t about mere details. It’s about demonstration and the substance of what you are suggesting. Just look back at your posts; you say things like “obvious”, “misrepresent”, “factual”, “by definition”, “fallacy”, etc. You use these as identifiers. Yet, when asked HOW the identification is made, you just repeat yourself: obvious, misrepresent...I might be misrepresenting you here, but, as to HOW I’m doing that, I guess we’ll never know.
 
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