The Scriptures and Authority

[LittleLambofJesus]

RCC practices more along the lines of Babylon than anything Christian or Jewish. The ceremony cannot be related to either camp.

Well, they do believe they are the New Israel I think, but they had to change from Judaism to Gentilism in the way they perform the "types and shadows" of the Freedom we have in the Christ. Thoughts?

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and shall be snatching away/arousin <142> (5692) of Us and the Place and the Nation/eqnoV <1484>." [Daniel 12]

Revelation 9:21 And not They reform/repent/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the Murders/fonwn <5408> of Them, nor out from their sorceries,...........

 

[Ormly]

Dunno. The Church rarely makes pronouncements regarding those outside her visible borders. You are not availing yourself of the more sure way, that we can say.

How's that? Are you not sure of your own faith to proclaim what you believe to be absolute? This is where I difficulty with most church inasmuch the true gospel will hurt the one who hears it. Jesus said so. Swords cut and they are meant to go deep. Should we therefore protect what God would injure by His spoken word?

What does it mean ? It is not a concept, it is His most Pure Body and Precious Blood.

I can believe that except as symbolic; something done in rememberance of Him who declared it to be done in that way. Ergo, it does not literally take the place of Him but brings to our rememberance the sigificance of the intimacy with which He purposed and sealed to us using those two elements.

Three things jump to mind:

We do not believe in Transubstantiation.

We believe that the Eucharist is given to us to be partaken of, we do not practice Eucharistic Adoration as is done in the West.

We do not believe that the Gifts are consecrated at a singular point in time.

Thank you for that. Especially the first part. However, what gifts do you speak of here?...

 

[Oblio]

something done in rememberance of Him

You are impressing 20th century Western definitions on 'rememberance' (as is often done with symbol) The Eastern meaning of 'rememberance' in ancient Palestine is quite different from yours.

Thank you for that. Especially the first part. However, what gifts do you speak of here?...

The gifts are those things which are offered unto God, bread and wine, these are returned to us (as Gifts), by Him, as His Body and Blood. You will often see the latter referred to as Holy Gifts, meaning that which God has given us.

 

[Ormly]

Well, they do believe they are the New Israel I think, but they had to change from Judaism to Gentilism in the way they perform the "types and shadows" of the Freedom we have in the Christ. Thoughts?

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, all shall be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and shall be snatching away/arousin <142> (5692) of Us and the Place and the Nation/eqnoV <1484>." [Daniel 12]

Revelation 9:21 And not They reform/repent/metenohsan <3340> (5656) out of the Murders/fonwn <5408> of Them, nor out from their sorceries,...........

I have too many thoughts. Constantine needs to be explained as well as the murderous crusades and inquistions. The corrupt Papacy of old speaks of something words fail in explaining them as being of Christ.

 

[Oblio]

I have too many thoughts. Constantine needs to be explained ...

As he is a Saint of the Orthodox Church, I would suggest asking in TAW

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I can believe that except as symbolic; something done in rememberance of Him who declared it to be done in that way. Ergo, it does not literally take the place of Him but brings to our rememberance the sigificance of the intimacy with which He purposed and sealed to us using those two elements.

I agree. I believe the Roman and Greek church needs to get together and study more on Jesus being the Passover Lamb for the Jews and Israel.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4301694-the-song-of-moses-in-the-bible.html

1 Corinthians 7:23 Of a price ye are purchased/hgorasqhte <59>, no ye be becoming bond-slaves of men;

Reve 5:9 and they are singing a New Song, saying, `Worthy art thou to be taking the scroll, and to up-open the seals of it, that Thou wast slaughtered, and purchased/hgorasaV <59> to the God of us, in the blood of Thee, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

 

[Ormly]

You are impressing 20th century Western definitions on 'rememberance' (as is often done with symbol) The Eastern meaning of 'rememberance' in ancient Palestine is quite different from yours.

Please speak of the difference. What am I missing that I should be concerned?

The gifts are those things which are offered unto God, bread and wine, these are returned to us (as Gifts), by Him, as His Body and Blood. You will often see the latter referred to as Holy Gifts, meaning that which God has given us.

What Bread and Wine gift from us, offered to God, is a scriptural thing to do that we should expect He would honor? Are you not simply saying that you offer up bread and wine and God gives it all back as Flesh and Blood? ...

 

[Ormly]

I can believe that except as symbolic; something done in rememberance of Him who declared it to be done in that way. Ergo, it does not literally take the place of Him but brings to our rememberance the sigificance of the intimacy with which He purposed and sealed to us using those two elements.

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1 Corinthians 11:27-30 (KJV)

What can be more clear than that?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have too many thoughts. Constantine needs to be explained ...

As he is a Saint of the Orthodox Church, I would suggest asking in TAW

What about Saint Luther? What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander LOL.

http://foru.ms/f726-mariology-hagiography.html

http://foru.ms/t6263863-st-martin-luther.html
st-martin-luther

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

"If I were younger I would want to learn this language [i.e. Hebrew], for without it one can never properly understand the Holy Scripture. For that reason they have said correctly: 'The Jews drink out of the original spring, The Greeks drink out of the stream flowing out of the stream, The Latins, however, out of the puddle."
--Martin Luther (1483-1546)

 

[Oblio]

Please speak of the difference. What am I missing that I should be concerned?

Rememberance

Modern Western: To recall in ones mind, to reflect on.

Ancient Eastern: To mystically revisit the event in question, steping outside of temporal time and space, along with the secular definition above. (Modern evangelicals have stripped the first part of the definition, as they have other words)

 

[Ormly]

Rememberance

Modern Western: To recall in ones mind, to reflect on.

Ancient Eastern: To mystically revisit the event in question, steping outside of temporal time and space, along with the secular definition above. (Modern evangelicals have stripped the first part of the definition, as they have other words)

Not me. That's intimacy you speak of. That why Paul's admonition is so noteworthy:

"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep." 1 Corinthians 11:27-30 (KJV)

Therefore, I agree with you but how is it arrived at is the pressing issue of our faith in Christ, wouldn't you say?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Rememberance

Modern Western: To recall in ones mind, to reflect on.

Ancient Eastern: To mystically revisit the event in question, steping outside of temporal time and space, along with the secular definition above. (Modern evangelicals have stripped the first part of the definition, as they have other words)

Hi. I believe one can also do that with the Jewish/Hebrew book of revelation if one studies it as a change of "Covenants/Priesthoods".
At least that is how I study it.

Hebrews 7:12 For with a change of the Priesthood out-of necessity also, of Law a change is-becoming,

Reve 11:2 and, the Court [Court of Priests/Altar of Burnt Offerings?] the one with-out/eswqen <2081> the Sanctuary, be you Casting Out!! [#1537-#906 ek-bale (5628)] out,[exw #1854]

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

 

[Oblio]

Well, the fact is that one cannot understand Scripture properly outside the Eastern Semitic culture that birthed it, and without the guidance of the Church. Remembrance means what it did then and there, not here (West) and now (post modernism).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, the fact is that one cannot understand Scripture properly outside the Eastern Semitic culture that birthed it, and without the guidance of the Church. Remembrance means what it did then and there, not here (West) and now (post modernism).

Then I would think a study of the Hebrew culture and language would be in order, correct?

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/

Approximately 75% of the Tenach (Old Testament) is poetry. All of Psalms and Proverbs are Hebrew poetry. Even the book of Genesis is full of Poetry.

There are several reasons the Hebrews used poetry, much of the Torah was sung and was easier to sing too, poetry and songs are easier to memorize than straight texts, Parallel poetry (as in Genesis 1) emphasizes something of great importance, as the creation story is.
A language is closely tied to the culture of those who speak the language. In the case of the Hebrews who were a nomadic people of the Near East, their language is closely connected to their nomadic culture. Each Hebrew word describes an action that can be seen in the nomadic journeys of the Hebrews through the wilderness.

All modern day translations of the Bible are written from a very westernized perspective and has erased the original Hebraic, Eastern, perspective of the original words in the text. Once the Hebraicness of the text is restored a common theme can be found throughout the Bible rising to the surface - our nomadic migration through the wilderness of life.

 

[Oblio]

Then I would think a study of the Hebrew culture and language would be in order, correct?

Not just Hebrew Only in modern evangelicalism do you find the belief that only Hebrews are Semitic. The easiest and most accurate way to determine what was believed is to look to the deposit of Faith secured and transmitted through the Church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not just Hebrew Only in modern evangelicalism do you find the belief that only Hebrews are Semitic. The easiest and most accurate way to determine what was believed is to look to the deposit of Faith secured and transmitted through the Church.

The Roman church tells us that all the time.

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

Luke 16:26 And in all of these, between US and YE a great Chasm hath been established so that those willing to pass-thru/diabhnai <1224> (5629)hence toward ye not be able, no yet thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276>.

Hebrews 11:29 By Faith they passed-through/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

 

[Thekla]

Cursory? Wrong word. ....Brief.

Sorry about the "RC" assumption but you don't indicate what you are....

I chose cursory because your brief descriptions indicate a misunderstanding of EO (Orthodox) belief, practice and history --
so it seemed to me you were likely not well studied on these things.

The barred cross is the CF-assigned symbol for Orthodox Christian.
Sorry for not being clearer

 

[Ormly]

I chose cursory because your brief descriptions indicate a misunderstanding of EO (Orthodox) belief, practice and history --
so it seemed to me you were likely not well studied on these things.

The barred cross is the CF-assigned symbol for Orthodox Christian.
Sorry for not being clearer

As long as my salvation is not affected I don't believe I will lose any sleep about not being readup or being overly concerned about orthodoxy of any stripe. ... Thanks

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Oblio Not just Hebrew Only in modern evangelicalism do you find the belief that only Hebrews are Semitic. The easiest and most accurate way to determine what was believed is to look to the deposit of Faith secured and transmitted through the Church.

As long as my salvation is not affected I don't believe I will lose any sleep about not being readup or being overly concerned about orthodoxy of any stripe. ... Thanks

So in the end, is it the Greeks or Romans that have the full deposit of the "Faith"?

http://foru.ms/t6313213-augustine-more-or-less-catholic.html

Augustine; more or LESS (C)atholic?

His view on the presence...Different than RCC!

"If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. 'Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,' says Christ, 'and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.' This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us." - Augustine (On Christian Doctrine, 3:16:24)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

News flash! Catholic interpret the Bible better than non-Catholics according to this post on the "Den of Heathens" board!!

http://foru.ms/t6280112-olsteen-on-60-minutes.html

St. Augustines commentarys are a good start..

I find Catholics are much better at interperating the bible than most protestants.