There is no Hell!

[Nadiine]

I think that Nadiine was talking about suffering after death: as in hell. It is true that we would not suffer after death, because we would be in heaven with God. But in this life, yes we will suffer, as it says in the Bible. But this is not a punishment.

Yes basically, I was talking about how Christians won't suffer the wrath that comes AFTER DEATH - this is why we are saved by Christ.

I would never say Christians won't suffer here physically on earth - the proof is that we really do go thru alot of suffering (carrying our crosses and just daily life's struggles and problems - which Jesus even told us we would have tribulations here).

As I read James' post, I understood him to say we will be punished AFTER our death (spiritually) until we "pay" for our sins (by fire). I read it twice to make sure that's how it read, and I came up with that impression both times.
If that's what was meant, it isn't biblical at all - it's our works that get judged by fire, not us. And whatever is left remaining is a reward for us.

 

[Zecryphon]

What I think he's saying if I'm not wrong, is that Christ/the Holy Spirit is the lake of fire? Some will be purified here, (taking up our crosses, those that are believers? and the rest after death, which will involve much worst punishment, that which we are saved from? christ's death saves us from more torture then what we normally would recieve?

"What I think he's saying if I'm not wrong, is that Christ/the Holy Spirit is the lake of fire?"

That's a new twist on the scriptures. If Christ is the Lake of Fire, that would mean that Christ is not ALL love, but indeed wrath as well, which universalists seem to hate. They can't deal with the concept of divine judgment so they have to twist scriptures to say things they don't say because they can't worship a God that will send someone to Hell for all eternity.

"Some will be purified here, (taking up our crosses, those that are believers?"

If we are purified by taking up our crosses, then Christianity is a works righteous faith, an ida the scriptures refute.

"and the rest after death, which will involve much worst punishment, that which we are saved from? christ's death saves us from more torture then what we normally would recieve?"

Makes no sense. Why send Christ at all then? We all deserve death and eternity in Hell. God doesn't seem to dole out punishment in degrees. Every time God punished anyone it was total destruction. Soddom and Gomorrah is one, the global flood is another. Look at the judgments that will be unleashed by God during the tribulation. Will some people's boils be more severe than someone who didn't sin quite as much? No, you ALL get boils!

 

[james415]

I think that Nadiine was talking about suffering after death: as in hell. It is true that we would not suffer after death, because we would be in heaven with God. But in this life, yes we will suffer, as it says in the Bible. But this is not a punishment.

She doesn’t seem to understand me. She says I am promoting works base effort for salvation. I don’t know were she got that idea. I even started a thread that promotes the belief we are saved by faith and not works. In another thread she was accusing me of preaching universalism which I don’t and never have. I don’t know… I can’t figure her out.

 

[Tavita]

That's a new twist on the scriptures. If Christ is the Lake of Fire, that would mean that Christ is not ALL love, but indeed wrath as well, which universalists seem to hate. They can't deal with the concept of divine judgment so they have to twist scriptures to say things they don't say because they can't worship a God that will send someone to Hell for all eternity.

What a lot of hogwash!

Where did you ever get that idea about those who believe all will be saved? That's something you conjured up in your own mind. You obviously haven't been reading the thread all the way through, nor have you paid attention, or listened.

We DO believe in judgment, and in God's wrath.

If we are purified by taking up our crosses, then Christianity is a works righteous faith, an ida the scriptures refute.

We are not purified by taking up our crosses. We die to self.. to the flesh. Isn't that getting rid of the dross of self and flesh? By dying? And sometimes we need some 'calamity' in our lives to do it, because we are so stubborn to do it freely of ourselves. If we are so perfect after receiving the righteousness of Jesus, then what is the point of dying to self? If all we have to do is receive that righteousness by faith,, which is what we all do when we accept His sacrifice.. then what is the point of testing and trials? They are God's judgments in our lives. Judgments meant to bring correction and restoration to the believer now.

Makes no sense. Why send Christ at all then? We all deserve death and eternity in Hell. God doesn't seem to dole out punishment in degrees. Every time God punished anyone it was total destruction. Soddom and Gomorrah is one, the global flood is another. Look at the judgments that will be unleashed by God during the tribulation. Will some people's boils be more severe than someone who didn't sin quite as much? No, you ALL get boils!

The wages of sin is death. How many times does it have to be said. Death. Not AND 'eternity in Hell'. And Jesus has already paid the redemption price for ALL men. It's already paid for.

 

[spiritlead]

The wages of sin is death. How many times does it have to be said. Death. Not AND 'eternity in Hell'. And Jesus has already paid the redemption price for ALL men. It's already paid for.

So, Tavita, do you beleive the lake of fire is spiritual for both us now and non beleivers at the great white throne judgement?

 

[james415]

We, who are serving God in this life are being tried and refined in the spiritual lake of fire now.

Even the non-believers are in it now. It is how God gets them to turn and be saved. But God has a set time for each.

 

[Tavita]

So, Tavita, do you beleive the lake of fire is spiritual for both us now and non beleivers at the great white throne judgement?

Yes. Also as James said above, I'm not sure if the unbelievers are in it now already. It's something I've not thought of before. This verse comes to mind..

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

God's judgment has been in the church since the beginning.

 

[spiritlead]

Even the non-believers are in it now. It is how God gets them to turn and be saved. But God has a set time for each.

Yes. Also as James said above, I'm not sure if the unbelievers are in it now already. It's something I've not thought of before. This verse comes to mind..

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

God's judgment has been in the church since the beginning.

But very few beleive this way, agree?

 

[Tavita]

But very few beleive this way, agree?

Yes, I agree.

 

[spiritlead]

Yes, I agree.

Do they teach it in your church? James?

 

[Zecryphon]

What a lot of hogwash!

Where did you ever get that idea about those who believe all will be saved? That's something you conjured up in your own mind. You obviously haven't been reading the thread all the way through, nor have you paid attention, or listened.

We DO believe in judgment, and in God's wrath.


We are not purified by taking up our crosses. We die to self.. to the flesh. Isn't that getting rid of the dross of self and flesh? By dying? And sometimes we need some 'calamity' in our lives to do it, because we are so stubborn to do it freely of ourselves. If we are so perfect after receiving the righteousness of Jesus, then what is the point of dying to self? If all we have to do is receive that righteousness by faith,, which is what we all do when we accept His sacrifice.. then what is the point of testing and trials? They are God's judgments in our lives. Judgments meant to bring correction and restoration to the believer now.


The wages of sin is death. How many times does it have to be said. Death. Not AND 'eternity in Hell'. And Jesus has already paid the redemption price for ALL men. It's already paid for.

"What a lot of hogwash!"

If you're talking about universalism I agree.

"Where did you ever get that idea about those who believe all will be saved?"

From the people that promote that heresy.

"That's something you conjured up in your own mind."

Nope, it's a conclusion I've drawn from people who confess works-righteous faiths.

"You obviously haven't been reading the thread all the way through, nor have you paid attention, or listened."

Yeah, my heresy meter hit it's limit pages ago. LOL

"We DO believe in judgment, and in God's wrath."

But not in Christ's ability to pay the penalty for sin on the cross? Which is it? Either Christ secured salvation for all with His sacrifice on the cross, as I have seen claimed previously in other threads or God does have divine judgment for everyone and Christ's sacrifice really didn't accomplish forgiveness for sins, because we all now have to go to the lake of fire and burn for our sins. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. Keep in mind that I was commenting on LJGSM's conclusions about what she thought James had written and on what she thought James was trying to say.



Quote:
If we are purified by taking up our crosses, then Christianity is a works righteous faith, an ida the scriptures refute.
"We are not purified by taking up our crosses. We die to self.. to the flesh. Isn't that getting rid of the dross of self and flesh? By dying?"

So we have to do something to fully pay for our sins? I thought we did nothing in our salvation process. It is the Holy Spirit that leads us to repentance and also leads us to call upon the name of Christ to be saved.

"And sometimes we need some 'calamity' in our lives to do it, because we are so stubborn to do it freely of ourselves."

We have no power to do it freely of ourselves. The Holy Spirit does this. If we had any role in our salvation, God would not be fully glorified, and it's all about the glorification of God.

"If we are so perfect after receiving the righteousness of Jesus, then what is the point of dying to self?"

When you are born-again, if you're truly saved, you have a new nature, a new heart with new desires, you don't want any of the old self anymore, it's repugnant to you to live for self. Now this new nature will of course be at war, constantly, with your old Adamic nature. Beacuse of that we will all fall, occaisionally, and when we do we must repent immediately and ask for forgiveness from God. There will always be temptation, but those who are in Christ, will have the power to defeat that temptation. But we do have our moments of weakness. It's a consequence of being dual-natured.

"If all we have to do is receive that righteousness by faith,, which is what we all do when we accept His sacrifice.. then what is the point of testing and trials?"

You have to somehow prove that all your troubles in life are judgments sent by God. I don't believe God treats everyone like Job. However, one reason that He may send you tribulation and trials is to train you up in the faith, so you can be a more effective witness for Christ. So you can help your weaker brothers and sisters in the faith when they are stumbling or struggling and to be a living witness to the world of the power of Christ Himself and His amazing power to save.

"They are God's judgments in our lives. Judgments meant to bring correction and restoration to the believer now."

Not everything bad that happens is a judgment from God though. Sometimes it's the result of stupid and selfish people around you too.



Quote:
Makes no sense. Why send Christ at all then? We all deserve death and eternity in Hell. God doesn't seem to dole out punishment in degrees. Every time God punished anyone it was total destruction. Soddom and Gomorrah is one, the global flood is another. Look at the judgments that will be unleashed by God during the tribulation. Will some people's boils be more severe than someone who didn't sin quite as much? No, you ALL get boils!
"The wages of sin is death. How many times does it have to be said. Death. Not AND 'eternity in Hell'. And Jesus has already paid the redemption price for ALL men. It's already paid for"

Not for all men!!! The debt is paid for those who by the power of the Holy Spirit repent of their sin and call upon the name of Jesus to be saved. How many times does it have to be said?

 

[Tavita]

If you're talking about universalism I agree.

LOL..

"Where did you ever get that idea about those who believe all will be saved?"

From the people that promote that heresy.

Then you haven't been listening.

"That's something you conjured up in your own mind."

Nope, it's a conclusion I've drawn from people who confess works-righteous faiths.

You haven't been listening.

"You obviously haven't been reading the thread all the way through, nor have you paid attention, or listened."

Yeah, my heresy meter hit it's limit pages ago. LOL

Then why bother posting in here?

"We DO believe in judgment, and in God's wrath."

But not in Christ's ability to pay the penalty for sin on the cross? Which is it? Either Christ secured salvation for all with His sacrifice on the cross, as I have seen claimed previously in other threads or God does have divine judgment for everyone and Christ's sacrifice really didn't accomplish forgiveness for sins, because we all now have to go to the lake of fire and burn for our sins. Which is it? You can't have it both ways. Keep in mind that I was commenting on LJGSM's conclusions about what she thought James had written and on what she thought James was trying to say.

First you say that people must pay for their sins in the lake of fire by being tormented eternally for it, and then you accuse me of saying Christ's sacrifice is of no effect because I believe they will have to go to the lake of fire to be burned for their sins.

So we have to do something to fully pay for our sins? I thought we did nothing in our salvation process. It is the Holy Spirit that leads us to repentance when we call upon the name of Christ to be saved.

You're right. And no, we don't have to do something to pay for our sins. And you're right again in saying we did nothing in our salvation process.

We have no power to do it freely of ourselves. The Holy Spirit does this. If we had any role in our salvation, God would not be fully glorified, and it's all about the glorification of God.

So you believe like me that it had nothing to do with your freewill when you were saved? "We have no power to do it freely of ourselves."

When you are born-again, if you're truly saved, you have a new nature, a new heart with new desires, you don't want any of the old self anymore, it's repugnant to you to live for self. Now this new nature will of course be at war, constantly, with your old Adamic nature. Beacuse of that we will all fall, occaisionally, and when we do we must repent immediately and ask for forgiveness from God. There will always be temptation, but those who are in Christ, will have the power to defeat that temptation. But we do have our moments of weakness. It's a consequence of being dual-natured.

Agreed.

You have to somehow prove that all your troubles in life are judgments sent by God. I don't believe God treats everyone like Job. However, one reason that He may send you tribulation and trials is to train you up in the faith, so you can be a more effective witness for Christ. So you can help your weaker brothers and sisters in the faith when they are stumbling or struggling and to be a living witness to the world of the power of Christ Himself and His amazing power to save.

Yes, I agree with you there too. However, trials and testings are also to bring us face to face with the sin residing within that we would otherwise have not known. They cause a man to see who they are really trusting in, whether God or any other idol we have set up in our hearts. To bring us to humility before Him. So that we can then help someone else struggling with sin or in their faith. He will bring trials so that Holy Spirit can bring that certain sin or wrong attitude up before us so we can repent and be cleansed.

Not everything bad that happens is a judgment from God though. Sometimes it's the result of stupid and selfish people around you too.

That is true too. But consider that in OT we find God using the stupidity and selfishness of other nations to bring judgment on Israel.

What do you think of this verse concerning the Church..

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Makes no sense. Why send Christ at all then? We all deserve death and eternity in Hell. God doesn't seem to dole out punishment in degrees. Every time God punished anyone it was total destruction. Soddom and Gomorrah is one, the global flood is another. Look at the judgments that will be unleashed by God during the tribulation. Will some people's boils be more severe than someone who didn't sin quite as much? No, you ALL get boils!

Yes, we all deserve death.
How do you account for there being different punishments for different sins under the Law? Not everyone who sinned was put to death. Most of the judgments under the Law were for restitution, to restore man to God or man to man.

"The wages of sin is death. How many times does it have to be said. Death. Not AND 'eternity in Hell'. And Jesus has already paid the redemption price for ALL men. It's already paid for"

Not for all men!!! The debt is paid for those who by the power of the Holy Spirit repent of their sin and call upon the name of Jesus to be saved. How many times does it have to be said?

[/quote]

Not for all men???
I thought it was.. while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Are not all men sinners? He died for us before we repented and called on His name.

Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 whereas God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us.

Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

You said this above.. If we had any role in our salvation, God would not be fully glorified, and it's all about the glorification of God.
Yet you just said The debt is paid for those who by the power of the Holy Spirit repent of their sin and call upon the name of Jesus to be saved.
So one minute we have no role in our salvation and the next we are saved by repenting and calling on His name (because it's only those who do so who have their debts paid).

 

[Nadiine]

I'd love to know where you guys go to church (if you even go), or are you basically "self" taught? In charge of your own spiritual growth or knowledge and refuse to be taught or led by a qualified Shepherd? (and more preferably of the ORTHODOX, evangelical Christian persuasion rather than liberal)

Not that there aren't plenty of false teachers behind the pulpits these days either; but at some point as I read this stuff, I do wonder who you get it from?
It's not enough to read some scriptures and form a theology from it - - namely when OTHER scriptures directly refute it elsewhere (just for starters).

 

[Nadiine]

She doesn’t seem to understand me. She says I am promoting works base effort for salvation. I don’t know were she got that idea. I even started a thread that promotes the belief we are saved by faith and not works. In another thread she was accusing me of preaching universalism which I don’t and never have. I don’t know… I can’t figure her out.

Perhaps it's your unclear posts - perhaps its my perception & understanding of your words; perhaps a mesh of both!??

My original reply however starts out with a QUESTION of if I'm understanding your post rightly:

WHAT???????? Are you saying that ALL people including Christians are going to suffer?

I asked, and then continued on the premise I understood it as - so that IF you were claiming that, that would be my rebuttal and objection of it.
IF that's NOT what you were claiming you could then explain your post in some more detail.

I read your post 2 times to make sure I was interpreting what you said the same way... and I 'saw' that both times. And if I read it that way, how would a nonbeliever percieve it who doesn't know a whole lot of scripture doctrine??

I wasn't on your 'faith' thread nor have I seen it.
But you most certainly WERE showing a sort of support to those preaching Universalism on the other thread. You never once called it false openly (not that I read) - and when you show support and agreement WITH people preaching something false/wrong, and don't speak out that you disagree in any emphatic way (or show any correction to them), then what does one gather from that?

If I sit in agreement of people promoting homosexuality and don't openly deny it - and at least offer scriptures that refute it, then those people reading me will perceive that I'm on the side of homosexuality & homosexuals.

Unless I missed a post where you come out claiming something against Universalism in the other thread?? If so, I didn't spot it anywhere.

 

[james415]

But very few beleive this way, agree?

Yes, I agree as well.

 

[james415]

Do they teach it in your church? James?

I joined a non-denom’ church about 5 years ago. They win Christians over with love, not fear. They let God and the Bible reveal truth to each member on Gods time clock. I stopped going about 6 months ago, not because I had a problem with the church, but so I could spend more time reading straight from the Bible. When John said: make straight the path for the Lord; He was saying set aside your hard held beliefs to receive the truth. I am not saying to abandon your beleifs, just set them aside while you read the Bible. You will be amazed at the things God reveals. The Truth really does set you free.

 

[Nadiine]

I joined a non-denom’ church about 5 years ago. They win Christians over with love, not fear. They let God and the Bible reveal truth to each member on Gods time clock. I stopped going about 6 months ago, not because I had a problem with the church, but so I could spend more time reading straight from the Bible. When John said: make straight the path for the Lord; He was saying set aside your hard held beliefs to receive the truth. I am not saying to abandon your beleifs, just set them aside while you read the Bible. You will be amazed at the things God reveals. The Truth really does set you free.

I've come to the conclusion that the problem really isn't me in this...
let's take your post... the bible also says not to forsake the assembling of ourselves, and you decide that you should stop going to church in order to learn the bible all by yourself.

The NT promotes gathering as a body to LEARN and be shepherded by teachers who God appoints over His body, yet you decide something else is necessary for your growth instead.

I would be amazed at what God "reveals" to you when you shun His primary method of learning and growth to follow your own prescription.
I had a lady I knew in another chat debate forum who did the same thing, she said that God told her to stop attending church to learn from Him directly.
She soon started accepting people that came with false doctrines as if all should be included as Christians if they just promote the name of Christ - even those that denied Christ's Deity directly.

God appoints teachers and a whole structure for us to be involved in corporately. I don't see scripturally where He calls us to be isolated to "learn" of Him....
as if He can't reach us in church?? or under a shepherd's care???
We can't read the Bible "by ourselves" if we belong to a church?? If one thinks their pastor is "tainting" their understanding of God or truth, then I'd suggest finding another pastor/church that taught the truth. (church is also more than just learning from the Pastor; it's a network for us that includes fellowship and communion).

 

[james415]

Do they teach it in your church? James?

I joined a non-denom’ church about 5 years ago. They win Christians over with love, not fear. They let God and the Bible reveal truth to each member on Gods time clock. I stopped going about 6 months ago, not because I had a problem with the church, but so I could spend more time reading straight from the Bible. When John said: make straight the path for the Lord; He was saying set aside your hard held beliefs to receive the truth. I am not saying to abandon your beleifs, just set them aside while you read the Bible. You will be amazed at the things God reveals. The Truth really does set you free.

Just wanted to add this:

2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

In other words, truth comes to people in Gods time so have patients and wait on the Lord.

 

[Zecryphon]

"Where did you ever get that idea about those who believe all will be saved?"

From the people that promote that heresy.

"Then you haven't been listening."

Why do you assume that you are one of the people I am talking about?

"That's something you conjured up in your own mind."

Nope, it's a conclusion I've drawn from people who confess works-righteous faiths.

"You haven't been listening."

Again, you're assuming that you are the only person I've talked to about this, which is not true.

"You obviously haven't been reading the thread all the way through, nor have you paid attention, or listened."

Yeah, my heresy meter hit it's limit pages ago. LOL

"Then why bother posting in here?"

To counteract false teaching.

"First you say that people must pay for their sins in the lake of fire by being tormented eternally for it, and then you accuse me of saying Christ's sacrifice is of no effect because I believe they will have to go to the lake of fire to be burned for their sins. "

No, I was commenting on LJ's interpretation of what James was saying, not what YOU were saying. You're directing my comments at you, when they were never about you or your statements. Why?

"You're right. And no, we don't have to do something to pay for our sins. And you're right again in saying we did nothing in our salvation process."

So if the price has been paid for our sins why do we need to go to the Lake of Fire then and be purified? Are we not made pure when we are saved by God?

"So you believe like me that it had nothing to do with your freewill when you were saved? "We have no power to do it freely of ourselves.""

Right, I do not promote decision theology.

"Agreed."

That's refreshing. There's a few people here, in this forum, who deny being dual-natured.

"Yes, I agree with you there too. However, trials and testings are also to bring us face to face with the sin residing within that we would otherwise have not known. They cause a man to see who they are really trusting in, whether God or any other idol we have set up in our hearts. To bring us to humility before Him. So that we can then help someone else struggling with sin or in their faith. He will bring trials so that Holy Spirit can bring that certain sin or wrong attitude up before us so we can repent and be cleansed."

Alright.

"That is true too. But consider that in OT we find God using the stupidity and selfishness of other nations to bring judgment on Israel."

True.

"What do you think of this verse concerning the Church..

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

I think Peter was giving telling the new Christians about being judged and/or persectued by others for being Christians and to not lose faith in God because of this persecution.

"Yes, we all deserve death.
How do you account for there being different punishments for different sins under the Law?"

Which law? There are the 10 Commandments and there are an additional 603 laws given to the nation of Israel. Which laws are you referring to?

"Not everyone who sinned was put to death. Most of the judgments under the Law were for restitution, to restore man to God or man to man."

Those were additional laws that God gave to the nation of Israel to help Israel function in a way that was pleasing to Him. There is nothing I can see, that would make those laws applicable to us, especially now that we are saved by Christ.

"Not for all men???
I thought it was.. while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Are not all men sinners? He died for us before we repented and called on His name."

He did die for sinners, but sinners need to admit they're sinners and repent of their sins. Not all sinners have done that. Christ makes it clear that repentance is part of salvation, now we can't repent by ourselves, but only through the power of the Holy Spirit can we recognize our status as sinners against God.

"Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

Who is Paul speaking to here? Remember who the author is addressing with his writings. Also, keep in mind how the author's audience would have understood the message. Paul was speaking to the saved here, not the unsaved.

"2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 whereas God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us."

Again, remember who Paul was addressing here. Who is the "us" he is referring to? Is it Christians or the world at large?

"Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

John recognized Jesus as messiah, who would pay for the sins of the world with His death and resurrection. But the world needs to confess their sin before God. Jesus Himself told us to repent of our sins or that we too would perish. See Luke 13:1-5.

"You said this above.. If we had any role in our salvation, God would not be fully glorified, and it's all about the glorification of God."

True.

"Yet you just said The debt is paid for those who by the power of the Holy Spirit repent of their sin and call upon the name of Jesus to be saved.
So one minute we have no role in our salvation and the next we are saved by repenting and calling on His name (because it's only those who do so who have their debts paid). "

I don't see why you're confused. I said in one statement that we have no role in our salvation and in the next statement said we can only repent and call upon the name of Christ to be saved by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's not a contradiction. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to repent and call upon the name of Jesus, it is not our own power that does that.

 

[Tavita]

"Where did you ever get that idea about those who believe all will be saved?"

From the people that promote that heresy.

"Then you haven't been listening."

Why do you assume that you are one of the people I am talking about?

"That's something you conjured up in your own mind."

Nope, it's a conclusion I've drawn from people who confess works-righteous faiths.

"You haven't been listening."

Again, you're assuming that you are the only person I've talked to about this, which is not true.

"You obviously haven't been reading the thread all the way through, nor have you paid attention, or listened."

Yeah, my heresy meter hit it's limit pages ago. LOL

"Then why bother posting in here?"

To counteract false teaching.

"First you say that people must pay for their sins in the lake of fire by being tormented eternally for it, and then you accuse me of saying Christ's sacrifice is of no effect because I believe they will have to go to the lake of fire to be burned for their sins. "

No, I was commenting on LJ's interpretation of what James was saying, not what YOU were saying. You're directing my comments at you, when they were never about you or your statements. Why?

"You're right. And no, we don't have to do something to pay for our sins. And you're right again in saying we did nothing in our salvation process."

So if the price has been paid for our sins why do we need to go to the Lake of Fire then and be purified? Are we not made pure when we are saved by God?

"So you believe like me that it had nothing to do with your freewill when you were saved? "We have no power to do it freely of ourselves.""

Right, I do not promote decision theology.

"Agreed."

That's refreshing. There's a few people here, in this forum, who deny being dual-natured.

"Yes, I agree with you there too. However, trials and testings are also to bring us face to face with the sin residing within that we would otherwise have not known. They cause a man to see who they are really trusting in, whether God or any other idol we have set up in our hearts. To bring us to humility before Him. So that we can then help someone else struggling with sin or in their faith. He will bring trials so that Holy Spirit can bring that certain sin or wrong attitude up before us so we can repent and be cleansed."

Alright.

"That is true too. But consider that in OT we find God using the stupidity and selfishness of other nations to bring judgment on Israel."

True.

"What do you think of this verse concerning the Church..

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

I think Peter was giving telling the new Christians about being judged and/or persectued by others for being Christians and to not lose faith in God because of this persecution.

"Yes, we all deserve death.
How do you account for there being different punishments for different sins under the Law?"

Which law? There are the 10 Commandments and there are an additional 603 laws given to the nation of Israel. Which laws are you referring to?

"Not everyone who sinned was put to death. Most of the judgments under the Law were for restitution, to restore man to God or man to man."

Those were additional laws that God gave to the nation of Israel to help Israel function in a way that was pleasing to Him. There is nothing I can see, that would make those laws applicable to us, especially now that we are saved by Christ.

"Not for all men???
I thought it was.. while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Are not all men sinners? He died for us before we repented and called on His name."

He did die for sinners, but sinners need to admit they're sinners and repent of their sins. Not all sinners have done that. Christ makes it clear that repentance is part of salvation, now we can't repent by ourselves, but only through the power of the Holy Spirit can we recognize our status as sinners against God.

"Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

Who is Paul speaking to here? Remember who the author is addressing with his writings. Also, keep in mind how the author's audience would have understood the message. Paul was speaking to the saved here, not the unsaved.

"2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 whereas God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and putting the word of reconciliation in us."

Again, remember who Paul was addressing here. Who is the "us" he is referring to? Is it Christians or the world at large?

"Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming to him and says, Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

John recognized Jesus as messiah, who would pay for the sins of the world with His death and resurrection. But the world needs to confess their sin before God. Jesus Himself told us to repent of our sins or that we too would perish. See Luke 13:1-5.

"You said this above.. If we had any role in our salvation, God would not be fully glorified, and it's all about the glorification of God."

True.

"Yet you just said The debt is paid for those who by the power of the Holy Spirit repent of their sin and call upon the name of Jesus to be saved.
So one minute we have no role in our salvation and the next we are saved by repenting and calling on His name (because it's only those who do so who have their debts paid). "

I don't see why you're confused. I said in one statement that we have no role in our salvation and in the next statement said we can only repent and call upon the name of Christ to be saved by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's not a contradiction. It is the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to repent and call upon the name of Jesus, it is not our own power that does that.

Hey Zecryphon,

I'm not going to rehash and rehash things over and over. I getting pretty tired of it actually.

There is one thing I want to say though in regards to this..

Why do you assume that you are one of the people I am talking about?

"You haven't been listening."

Again, you're assuming that you are the only person I've talked to about this, which is not true.

I AM one of those people you are talking about. This is why I 'assume' you are talking to me... especially when you are addressing my posts. And I don't assume I am the only person you are talking to. However, it is important in conversations to listen to others so you don't misunderstand what they have to say. You want to take a stand against a 'heresy' but don't even know what that so called heresy entails cuz you don't want to listen.


Peace to you anyways..