At Crossroads -- Cf's Vision Discussion Thread (2) - Please Vote in Poll Thread

[Epiphanygirl]

Honestly, my first post on here was on a thread entitled (generally) "why are atheists so stupid?"

Let's be frank, there are plenty of Christians on here who despise atheists, many who don't trust atheists, many who believe we are automatically immoral, and most who (in absolute reality) are dealing with the cognitive disonance of being taught that they are superior to me, but know they can't actually say so.

I am no less moral for not believing in your God, I am no less honest, and I don't love my family less. But I also know that most people in my real life would turn on my in an instant if they knew I was an atheist. In fact, outside of this board, there is only a single Christian who knows I'm atheist. So, I fight my battle for understanding on here, one little bit at a time.

For the most part, that's why we're here.

dude, believe me, I understand, I had an atheist roomate, hos girlfriend was buhddist, and a pagan.....guess what, we got along and shared a big house for many years.
I am truly sorry if my words made you feel that you are not a good or moral person, that's not the case.

 

[MartinM]

*points*

Yes, you've made it quite clear that you think certain groups of members should be treated differently. That would be the position I'm asking you to defend.

 

[intricatic]

CF is a place where ministry can take place, but it is not a ministry. AND lets not forget that the KEY to ministry is evangelization.

Then we should change the name. Christianforums reinforces the idea that this site is, itself, a ministry. It should be religionforums or something to that effect.

 

[Debi1967]

So, can somebody answer me... With option two winning, does that mean non-Christians will be booted entirely from the site?

NO

 

[JGG]

dude, believe me, I understand, I had an atheist roomate, hos girlfriend was buhddist, and a pagan.....guess what, we got along and shared a big house for many years.
I am truly sorry if my words made you feel that you are not a good or moral person, that's not the case.

Well, obviously I know I'm a good and moral person, and obviously, there is nothing you can do or say that would make me feel as though I'm not.

What I'm saying is that the base assumption among many of the people on this board, and in actual day-to-day life, is that I'm not, simply because I don't believe in your God.

And remember, most people in real life talk to me with the assumption that I'm Christian.

 

[Spherical Time]

OK technically the Catholic Church has many secular governances set up in order to be able to keep it financially accountable .... Does that mean that the Church itself is then Secular because it uses outside sources to administrate it's monies and so forth....

Uh . . . so CF should have secular governance structures in order to pursue it's ministry?

As so your question, the Catholic Church isn't a corporation that runs a church. It's a Church that uses secular resources to administrate money. If it were the other way around, then I would indeed call it secular because the primary function would be the secular organization.

CF is run by the Loh Enterprises Pty Ltd. to make money.

That's not what Erwin has been saying since the beginning.

I've never seen him claim that CF is not in existence to make him money.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Forums that prior change regularly had over a page of threads with current new posts today have 4-5 current posts. IMO that would be because many of those threads turned into debates generally about the existence of God rather than whatever the OP intended.

Am not sure why an atheist or even agnostic would feel compelled to join a discussion about the nature of God for example and attempt to turn that into debate of His existence. That is exactly what we see happening daily in sections where Christens attempt to ask other Christens questions.

To me it becomes pointless and meaningless to post or ask questions if a group of people are allowed to turn almost every conversation to a few limited topics. At any party or social gather, such people would eventually find themselves alone unless everyone there was in full agreement with them. That is never been the case here.

Since there is no way to prevent people from being rude in a forums like these without having rules (and the changes demonstrate a lack of personal restraint) the need for rules to restrict access simply to allow discussion seems necessary.

 

[Davidnic]

I could not vote for option #1. This is not the only reason but the most important line is:

secondary vision being to allow Christians to outreach to non-Christians

That should never be second place. It is the Great Commission and should not be placed second to anything.

Now if #1 wins and we change the name. Then we are being more honest, given the recent direction.

But many are here becuse it is Christian forums. And if #1 wins then an announcment should be made that bringing Christ to others is the secondary goal of this site and that the direct Great Commission from the Lord must be subject to our concerns and desires.

 

[dignitized]

So, can somebody answer me... With option two winning, does that mean non-Christians will be booted entirely from the site?

winning? Yesterday it was a 75/25 split - now it's 60/40. Option 2 is losing ground not running away with a win. ALSO - how many socks have voted? I can see at least 2 who have voted for option 2.

 

[intricatic]

winning? Yesterday it was a 75/25 split - now it's 60/40. Option 2 is losing ground not running away with a win. ALSO - how many socks have voted? I can see at least 2 who have voted for option 2.

I've seen a good number voting option 1, as well.

But the ratio has stayed pretty much even with a very small crawl on the side of option one. It's been roughly 65/35 as an average since it started.

 

[seekingmyLord]

I guess, the question is does a Christian site have to be all inclusive to be Christian?

If I am looking for an inclusive website, I would not be going to one named "Christian Forums." If I am looking for a Christian site specifically, I would not be looking a forum made for "all religions of the world."

I have seen people ask the non-Christians why they still come here if they were treated so badly. However, I have questions for those Christians who are eager to do outreach: Why would you want to do it on a website called "Christian Forums?" Is it because it is a safe place?

 

[justanobserver]

The Christians still made churches and gathered together.

If that is your argument, ie, "Go out and preach," then GO to a secular site!!! We don't have to change this one to reach out! Come ON, people!

I left the quote name blank for a reason - I am not picking on the person and I do not want anyone to take it that way. After 2 days of reading litteraly thousand posts on all this - it kinda sums up right now one growing view I am seeing, so, this is in general for a buncha folks and thus the quoted pst is a general statement to me:

So, what your saying is that you want a place that you can liken unto a church where the christians come to, lock the doors behind them to keep the sinner out (and then decide inside who is and is not the real christian).

got a question: I am wondering, how did the folks inside become christian if they could not come inside to get told? if you lock yourself in, how do you get out to spread the Word? There are those that are born into church, folks are christian, they are raised that way and never really went out and lived a sinful life folks such as I.

BUT those that have lived such a sinful life such as I - they had to reached somehow, get told by someone, led to prayer someway.

Did it happen at the store? the bar? the corner under the streetlamp? I understand the common view of the Great Commision is out in the field, working missions, going out handing out tracks BUT would it not apply equally as well to teh sinner that walks in off the street or will he be told to go back outside, this is a members only club and someone will be out there shortly to tell you how to get saved?

Does all conversion now since I left christianity in '82 happen outside the church? I really actually have sat in a church pew and got glares from others with that look "whats that sinner doing here in my church?" Was told by one rpeacher in San Luis Obispo, CA cgurch after I told him I just got out of rehab and does his church have a ministry - I was told "theres other places for your kind".

yep. kinda now you might see why I am reading some of these posts with a growing knot in my stomach from nostaglia.

Who is church for? the saint? the sinner ? both?

I just want to reiterate one more time since this is a new thread - I can and do very much undertsand where a lot of folks are coming from and their views about the church mindset of this site - whether all share that or not is immaterial. for some (or many), this is a church and i can so undertsand that. i really really do.

I am not an athiest, I am a backslider and know/undertsand the Word probably better than some and not as much as others. So, I am not ignorant of how the Spirit is or works. I do agree that there needs to be a place here that is open only to the christian. They need and must have that "quiet time", that space, that break form the dealings outsiode in teh open areas. a poace where they can discuss their vierws without interruptions, hassles, even sincere quesitons from non christian. There needs to a plce where just christians can be and talk and Mod their own. I am in total agreement and have stated such from the beginning of all this.

BUT - for those who are concerned about teh non christians and I wont even begon to try to quote, describe, remind, repeat, etc trhe comments, fear, hsyteria, etc I have read in all these posts about how we are going to do this and that, etc ad naseum.

How many non christian Mods are there actially here? I think there are 4 total, to includ me. have any of them been a problem since they got appointed? How many non christian Mods per section? there been problems in that seciton? have folks complained about agendas being pushed? has God been reduced and brushed aside by them? be interesting to see if anyone looks into that and has an answer.

has anyone even been to the Mod Apps sections of each area and READ the apps? the Q&A's? has anyone? if not, then how do you know what they are going or not going to to do? Has anyone taled with teh SuperMods/admins of each seciton? have anyone even bothered to PM/talk to the Mod/Mod trainee to se who and what they are? We are peope, not monsters. as shakespear said:

If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die?

we are your friends here. I myself have no desire in the least to traipes over to Congregation and Mod - dont want to and you couldnt drag me over kicking and screaming. Same with theology and any of the former CO areas of this site; names changed somewhat maybe but its still the same areas to me. Its not what i am into _ am into Military (being a vet) and into Recovery - I have this thing for wanting to help those who are addicted and alcoholic. call me silly.

But i will say this and then i am gonna shut up an do some serious thinkiin: In Mat 7 it said you shall know them by their fruit and in Matt 12 I think it talks about from the abundance of the heart so speaketh the mouth, and well, maybe those two verses wil say what I cant say after reading all the posts here. because for me, it boils down to another passage in Matt 25: 42, 43.

I dont know. just got some deep thoughts right now and its hard to form them into words.

 

[Debi1967]

Uh . . . so CF should have secular governance structures in order to pursue it's ministry?

As so your question, the Catholic Church isn't a corporation that runs a church. It's a Church that uses secular resources to administrate money. If it were the other way around, then I would indeed call it secular because the primary function would be the secular organization.

CF is run by the Loh Enterprises Pty Ltd. to make money.

I've never seen him claim that CF is not in existence to make him money.

maybe one of the site supporters can answer you but that is why he set up Loh enterprises to begin with .... There was an announcement made by Erwin himself telling us about it and that his accountant had encouraged him to do so so that he would be able to show everyone where all the money is going....

Umm do you have any idea how much it is to pay for servers that service worldwide???

Do you know how much it is to pay for technicians to make sure this site runs ????

Do you know how much he has spent on new programming for this sit time and time again?????

So if he has a few extra bucks left over every month so what????

I say as long as it is getting used on the website and there is nothing to say that it is not .... so therefore nothing to support your accusation then I say fine ... As long as Dr Loh is not using it on himself then well what the hey ....

But even if he was paying himself a short salary, most pastors and priests get a short salary from their congregation too ...... So what ????

 

[rushingwind62]

I have sat back and watched the discussion for the most part. I see many are not happy with option 1 or 2. Are we looking for perfection? I know CF had its problems before the change but at least we had some structure. That structure was taken away and chaos ensued. I think we need to get this idea of a perfect CF out of our heads because we will never be able to please everyone. Someone is going to be upset about something. It is in our nature. I would much rather have option 2 back in force because at least when it was the rule of the thumb we had some structure and accountability.

 

[Beastt]

dude, believe me, I understand, I had an atheist roomate, hos girlfriend was buhddist, and a pagan.....guess what, we got along and shared a big house for many years.
I am truly sorry if my words made you feel that you are not a good or moral person, that's not the case.

Then why is it so hard for you to conceive of sharing equally and getting along here?

 

[Evergreen48]

I voted for # 2, although I believe that a slight change in the rule that governs who is allowed to be a moderator and who is not, might be made. I believe it would be a good thing if for instance, forums such as 'General Apologetics', 'Non Nicene theology' (formerly 'Unorthodox Theology'), 'Liberal Theology', and 'Ethics and Morality' be allowed at least one Moderator who is defined by the Nicene Creed as being 'Non Christian'.

 

[Spherical Time]

maybe one of the site supporters can answer you but that is why he set up Loh enterprises to begin with .... There was an announcement made by Erwin himself telling us about it and that his accountant had encouraged him to do so so that he would be able to show everyone where all the money is going....

I've never seen a statement from CF.

Umm do you have any idea how much it is to pay for servers that service worldwide???

Yes.

Do you know how much it is to pay for technicians to make sure thsi site runs ????

I was under the impression that Erwin does most of the technical work himself.

Do you know how much he has spent on new programming for this sit time and time again?????

No.

So if he has a few extra bucks left over every month so what????

I personally couldn't care less if he has a few bucks left over at the end of the month. He runs the largest Christian website, after all. But you'll still notice that a secular corporation still runs CF.

It already has secular governance.

I say as long as it is getting used on the website and there is nothing to say that it is not .... so therefore nothing to support your accusation then I say fine ... As long as Dr Loh is not using it on himself then well what the hey ....

What exactly do you think my accusation is? I think it's that you can't deny that CF's top level of governance is secular.

Yes, Erwin uses it as a psuedo-ministry, but it is secularly run.

But even if he was paying himself a short salary, most pastors and priests get a short salary from their congregation too ...... So what ????

He's not a pastor, and he's not a priest, and he's certainly never claimed to be either.

 

[Debi1967]

Please, I'm just looking for an answer, not an argument. If that's all you have to offer, do not bother responding. I'm tired of arguing with people; there's absolutely nothing on this site that is worth the idiocy of having every last post be seen as a green flag to argue with somebody of an opposing faith.

Some of us did want to come to talk, some of us did want to come and make friends, some of us were seeking fellowship and had an interest to learn about a different faith structure... I know I did... But it's been completely beaten out of me and I'm just tired of all the crap, and I'm bordering on complete dislike of all that claims to be Christian and Godly because of the interactions I've had in the past week.

All I want to know now is what the ramifications of option one WINNING (because that's what it'll be chalked up as, a Godly win against the Godless... Judging by the signature I just saw, a stance that moderators are openly stating now... Considering their rule-bound conduct should be that to facillitate discussion and not encourage bias and disruption, I think it's safe to say if Mods are saying that what's going on with the rules is against God, this is seen as an us vs. them poll where option 2 is the "God-win") ... and what the ramifications are non-Christians. That's it. Just a question, not an argument.

tropical winds all option 2 does in my eyes is bring the focus back on God and then outreach as a secondary option to those that wish to engage in outreach...

Option 1 however open this site up for a name change because it would then be more secular

 

[JGG]

tropical winds all option 2 does in my eyes is bring the focus back on God and then outreach as a secondary option to those that wish to engage in outreach...

Option 1 however open this site up for a name change because it would then be more secular

Why would a name change be bad?

 

[Mrs.Sidhe]

So if he has a few extra bucks left over every month so what????

I say as long as it is getting used on the website and there is nothing to say that it is not .... so therefore nothing to support your accusation then I say fine ... As long as Dr Loh is not using it on himself then well what the hey ....

But even if he was paying himself a short salary, most pastors and priests get a short salary from their congregation too ...... So what ????

If he has a few bucks left over, he should put it towards a fund for the site. NOT pocket it. Dr. Loh is a doctor and a lawyer. He does NOT need extra money.

Besides in case you and others missed it, CF is a web site. Its a forum. NOT a church. Therefore he does not need a small salary because he is not the pastor of ANYTHING here. It would help things around here if people like you started to understand the difference between Church and CF.