At Crossroads -- Cf's Vision Discussion Thread (2) - Please Vote in Poll Thread

[intricatic]

Atheists on a Christian website are analogous to guests in a church.

I don't know what the problem is. Christians in an atheist site would be welcome to the site, but they'd expect to be governed by the rule of the atheists. I don't know why the attitude is so different here.

Well, some people start off with the presupposition of secular governance being a prized trait within a Christian community, for some bizarre reason, and that effects every strain of what those people believe should be an effective and non-abusive governance.

 

[MartinM]

Atheists on a Christian website are analogous to guests in a church.

Everybody here is a guest. The only question at hand is how guests should be treated.

 

[Beastt]

What makes me wonder is if that's how you think then why do you want to be with people who treat you the way you say? I don't go to places that I perceive people don't want me. Firstly, because I don't want to infringe on their beliefs, opinions, manner of doing things, etc. and secondly, I don't go there because I don't want to be a part of it.

Let me answer your question with a question. If your neighbor had large ranch and used slave labor to run it, would you just stay away or would you confront the issue?

Wrongs don't go away simply because you turn your back on them. They go away when you can demonstrate to the perpetrators that what they're doing is wrong. And when you try to do that here, the answer is; "Why are you here if you don't like it?"

 

[Beastt]

What makes me wonder is if that's how you think then why do you want to be with people who treat you the way you say? I don't go to places that I perceive people don't want me. Firstly, because I don't want to infringe on their beliefs, opinions, manner of doing things, etc. and secondly, I don't go there because I don't want to be a part of it.

Let me answer your question with a question. If your neighbor had a large ranch and used slave labor to run it, would you just stay away or would you confront the issue? What if his ranch was growing and threatened to over-take your land?

Wrongs don't go away simply because you turn your back on them. They go away when you can demonstrate to the perpetrators that what they're doing is wrong. And when you try to do that here, the answer is; "Why are you here if you don't like it?"

 

[Timothy]

Well, some people start off with the presupposition of secular governance being a prized trait within a Christian community, for some bizarre reason, and that effects every strain of what those people believe should be an effective and non-abusive governance.

Agreed. When in reality, we should look at the New Testament (Particularly Acts 1-3) on how we should be governing our community.

Take a look--the requirements for a new Apostle were stringent. He had to be someone who was well grounded in the faith, had known Jesus and his ministry since the beginning. They had faith-based requirements. Then let's look at 1 Timothy and Titus for qualifications for Elder and Deacon... faith based requirements.

Let me quote Murron (who in turn was quoting her Parish Priest) and say:

"I'd rather be Biblically correct than Politically correct."

 

[Faith In God]

CF is not a Church though. It is a message board.

It is a popular Methodist saying that a church isn't a building: it is the people who make it up.

Just because it is a message board doesn't mean it must degenerate into a social club rather than a place for Christians to interact with other Christians.

Well, some people start off with the presupposition of secular governance being a prized trait within a Christian community, for some bizarre reason, and that effects every strain of what those people believe should be an effective and non-abusive governance.

I go to a place called trumpetherald.com. If you are a saxophone player, you better assimilate. Your discussions will be tolerated so long as it abides by the rules: it is a trumpet player's forum, not a forum for sax players, though they are welcome to discuss any way they wish, so long as it is of a trumpet-nature. If you don't want to, and don't even play an instrument, that's fine! There is a sub-forum for socializing. But you'd better expect that your rule is limited in a trumpet forum, Sax Player. To not do so...

is unreasonable.
I still don't understand this attitude difference. It's like the people here (as another poster put it) are in a comfort bubble.

 

[Beastt]

Well, some people start off with the presupposition of secular governance being a prized trait within a Christian community, for some bizarre reason, and that effects every strain of what those people believe should be an effective and non-abusive governance.

No matter how you wish to word this the message is the same. You think Christians are superior to everyone else and should be treated as superior. You think everyone else is beneath you and you try to cover that by the empty assertion that a Christian community should always see Christians as superior. If that's what Christianity is all about to you, then you have no right to preach love, tolerance, justice or any of the other things you obviously hold no personal belief in.

 

[Faith In God]

Everybody here is a guest. The only question at hand is how guests should be treated.

Let me utilize the example I gave of trumpetherald.com.

A sax player is not a true member of a trumpet forum. He is a guest. And he would expect it. Until he becomes a trumpet player, or tries to learn the ins and outs of it, he has little to put in and little to gain from the general rule of the forum.

I am a trumpet player: I am a member of that forum. Someone who doesn't play trumpet is not a real member of the forum. It doesn't take much to see why.

I still don't understand the attitude difference.

 

[intricatic]

I go to a place called trumpetherald.com. If you are a saxophone player, you better assimilate. Your discussions will be tolerated so long as it abides by the rules: it is a trumpet player's forum, not a forum for sax players, though they are welcome to discuss any way they wish, so long as it is of a trumpet-nature. If you don't want to, and don't even play an instrument, that's fine! There is a sub-forum for socializing. But you'd better expect that your rule is limited in a trumpet forum, Sax Player. To not do so...

is unreasonable.
I still don't understand this attitude difference. It's like the people here (as another poster put it) are in a comfort bubble.

Actually, it's extending ideas of social governance to a faith based community, which doesn't fly, simply. It is unreasonable to expect any kind of ministry to function in a secular dynamic.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

The pure facts are either escaping you here or you wish that they would. We're asking for equal treatment, that's all. We're not asking to be treated better or differently, just the same. And you act as though that's an absurd request. There are a lot of words that describe the kind of attitude being demonstrated by the majority of Christians here. Not a single one is pleasant and most are considered to be insults. And that's part of the problem. I had presented one of the most fitting words here. I posted it along with the definition from Answers.com. I demonstrated that it's a perfect fit for the behaviors and beliefs Christians (I'm not forgetting that it's not every Christian), are demonstrating here. But the word is so offensive, that it was sugggested the thread might be closed down so I've discontinued using it. How is that for hypocrisy? You don't mind following behaviors which are the definition of such a word, but if someone properly labels those behaviors by using the correct word, you want them shut up.

That's the way this site has always operated. You might want to own slaves and force them to do your bidding, but you won't allow anyone to call you a slave-owner. You might want to treat others as inferiors and claim things for yourselves that you won't allow them to have, but you don't want anyone presenting the word which best describes such actions, thoughts and beliefs.

You can't change your behavior by eliminating the words which describe it. If you want to change your behavior, you have to start with how you think and perceive others and your place along-side (not above), them.

Forgive me if my posts are short...my finger is in a stint.....
Being a Christian does not eliminate me from sinning.....neither would being a hindu, pagan,etc.....or even an atheist...........then you turn around and say to us here that we aren't "acting" like Christians...
You admitted that you came here in response to something you googled, right? don't know what it was, but it seems that you wern't actively "seeking" but rather wanted to defend something............that's what we are doing, and rightly so..........this is, or was, a Christian forum, designed for Christians, why can you not respect that?
Am I better than you? Different because I'm Christian and you aren't, not necesarily a better person though.....
Whats wrong with Christians wanting to protect a Christian website to begin with? there are young ones out there who need it, old ones to. Relativism has seeped into this place, and is the scourge of Christianity IMO.

 

[JGG]

I'm gonna back Beastt up a bit, because I understand what he's getting at (even if he's being a bit harsh about it). Here are a few topics from Ethics & Morality and General Apologetics, started by Christian members, operating over the past few days:

Atheism/Morality
Should atheism, homosexuality, and feminism be hanned?
Atheist Gets Rebuked
secular liberalism; a moral dystopia?
Some common myths of atheism.

Its not a big deal, but it has been made abundantly clear that atheists are the enemies on this board - and that's fine, it's why I keep coming back - and it seems to me that those who view atheists as enemies, wouldn't want to allow them as moderators because it would be giving them equal footing.

 

[Faith In God]

Actually, it's extending ideas of social governance to a faith based community, which doesn't fly, simply. It is unreasonable to expect any kind of ministry to function in a secular dynamic.

Like feeding the poor? That's secular. No ministry can come about by feeding the poor, eh?

Or door to door salesmanship. Some denominations do that.

I guess the only solution is to dissolve the church.



You know, a bunch of people would be ticked at trumpetherald if a bunch of sax players went on and tried to degenerate it into a general music-lovers' forum.

 

[intricatic]

I'm gonna back Beastt up a bit, because I understand what he's getting at (even if he's being a bit harsh about it). Here are a few topics from Ethics & Morality and General Apologetics, started by Christian members, operating over the past few days:

Atheism/Morality
Should atheism, homosexuality, and heminism be hanned?
Atheist Gets Rebuked
secular liberalism; a moral dystopia?
Some common myths of atheism.

Its not a big deal, but it has been made abundantly clear that atheists are the enemies on this board - and that's fine, it's why I keep coming back - and it seems to me that those who view atheists as enemies, just don't want to allow them as moderators because it would be giving them equal footing.

It has nothing to do with equal footing, it has to do with governance and structure of a Christian ministry.

 

[intricatic]

Like feeding the poor? That's secular. No ministry can come about by feeding the poor, eh?

Or door to door salesmanship. Some denominations do that.

I guess the only solution is to dissolve the church.



You know, a bunch of people would be ticked at trumpetherald if a bunch of sax players went on and tried to degenerate it into a general music-lovers' forum.

Yup, I agree 100%.

 

[Beastt]

It is a popular Methodist saying that a church isn't a building: it is the people who make it up.

Just because it is a message board doesn't mean it must degenerate into a social club rather than a place for Christians to interact with other Christians.


I go to a place called trumpetherald.com. If you are a saxophone player, you better assimilate. Your discussions will be tolerated so long as it abides by the rules: it is a trumpet player's forum, not a forum for sax players, though they are welcome to discuss any way they wish, so long as it is of a trumpet-nature. If you don't want to, and don't even play an instrument, that's fine! There is a sub-forum for socializing. But you'd better expect that your rule is limited in a trumpet forum, Sax Player. To not do so...

is unreasonable.
I still don't understand this attitude difference. It's like the people here (as another poster put it) are in a comfort bubble.

Presenting another forum that operates under the same elitist and entitlement principles does nothing to change what such behavior demonstrates. It's a purely self-centered system of considering yourself to be superior because you adhere to the doctrines of the forum.

But here there is yet another twist. It's promoted as a Christian Forum and Christians are using that as the reason it shouldn't be run in accordance with what Christians themselves are claiming to be Christian values. I'll say that again because it's more than vaguely important; Christians seem to think that because this place calls itself a "Christian Forum", that it shouldn't be operated on fundamental Christian principles.

So while you preach love, justice, equality, compassion and tolerance, you think it's perfectly reasonable to run the site on the concepts of elitism, superiority of Christians, inferiority of everyone else, persecution of those you think are inferior and dictatorial rule.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Let me answer your question with a question. If your neighbor had a large ranch and used slave labor to run it, would you just stay away or would you confront the issue? What if his ranch was growing and threatened to over-take your land?

Wrongs don't go away simply because you turn your back on them. They go away when you can demonstrate to the perpetrators that what they're doing is wrong. And when you try to do that here, the answer is; "Why are you here if you don't like it?"

So then, can I come to your house and tell you and your family how to live like atheists......constantly knocking on your door, telling you you're wrong, you're acting wrong, and that I should have a equal say in your household?

 

[MartinM]

A sax player is not a true member of a trumpet forum. He is a guest.

I disagree. If the rules say 'trumpet players only,' fine. Anyone has a right to set up a private forum and admit whomever they choose. However, if the rules say that everyone is allowed in, everyone should be treated equally.

 

[Beastt]

Yup, I agree 100%.

Which only shows that you think it's absurd that anyone would expect you to practice what you preach.

 

[Faith In God]

Presenting another forum that operates under the same elitist and entitlement principles does nothing to change what such behavior demonstrates. It's a purely self-centered system of considering yourself to be superior because you adhere to the doctrines of the forum.

But here there is yet another twist. It's promoted as a Christian Forum and Christians are using that as the reason it shouldn't be run in accordance with what Christians themselves are claiming to be Christian values. I'll say that again because it's more than vaguely important; Christians seem to think that because this place calls itself a "Christian Forum", that it shouldn't be operated on fundamental Christian principles.

So while you preach love, justice, equality, compassion and tolerance, you think it's perfectly reasonable to run the site on the concepts of elitism, superiority of Christians, inferiority of everyone else, and dictatorial rule.

I don't think we're on the same page.
You're talking about an attitude change: I'm talking about a system change (or, rather, arguing against it).
Yes, some attitude needs changing: you don't woo people to a Bridegroom by snubbing them.

But degenerating the structure of this forum to suite the idea that this should be a social club is wrong. Both as a Christian community and by reasoning of any rational online forum.

 

[intricatic]

Presenting another forum that operates under the same elitist and entitlement principles does nothing to change what such behavior demonstrates. It's a purely self-centered system of considering yourself to be superior because you adhere to the doctrines of the forum.

But here there is yet another twist. It's promoted as a Christian Forum and Christians are using that as the reason it shouldn't be run in accordance with what Christians themselves are claiming to be Christian values. I'll say that again because it's more than vaguely important; Christians seem to think that because this place calls itself a "Christian Forum", that it shouldn't be operated on fundamental Christian principles.

So while you preach love, justice, equality, compassion and tolerance, you think it's perfectly reasonable to run the site on the concepts of elitism, superiority of Christians, inferiority of everyone else, persecution of those you think are inferior and dictatorial rule.

Nobody's talking about running on concepts of elitism, etc... A trumpet player is no better than a saxaphone player. The site is set up for trumpet players, not saxaphone players, however. It's demographic is more centered on trumpet players than saxaphone players. Plain and simple. Your hyperbolic posts are getting horribly boring.