The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

[m9lc]

He may have put the tree there, but who ate the apple?

Who created Adam and Eve with a sinful nature, so that they would want to eat the apple?

As I've said above, saying God didn't create sin is like saying that I didn't make toast because the toaster was the one that actually did the toasting. Technically, I didn't make the toast, but I did put all the ingredients there and initiate the process.

How do you know this?

Because he didn't appear before me. You may say "That's too much to expect of God" but the fact is, there is no reason that an omnipotent, loving God who wants me to believe in him wouldn't be able to do that.

 

[E.C.]

Who created Adam and Eve with a sinful nature, so that they would want to eat the apple?

No one really. God gave them free will. Free will meaning they wouldn't be mindless drones. Adam and Eve had free will. It was from the snake's tempting and their free will that resulted in the sinful nature.

As I've said above, saying God didn't create sin is like saying that I didn't make toast because the toaster was the one that actually did the toasting. Technically, I didn't make the toast, but I did put all the ingredients there and initiate the process.

Sin resulted in the Fall of Man (Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit)

God did not really create sin in the sense of Stephen King writes books and Van Gogh created paintings.

Did you have the intent of making toast or was it just to have the bread warmed a little bit but not burned?

Because he didn't appear before me. You may say "That's too much to expect of God" but the fact is, there is no reason that an omnipotent, loving God who wants me to believe in him wouldn't be able to do that.

You're expecting too much. You're expecting God to appear right before you in the flesh.

God does not "make" you believe in Him. He allows you to know about him somehow, be it through someone or by some thing, but whether you decide to actually believe is another thing.

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. God is the water. Believing is drinking.

 

[Theogonia]

We can't just "decide to believe". God is the one chooses who to draw to him.

If someone can't believe maybe it's because God doesn't want them to.

 

[DavetheProphet]

Hope I'm not intruding on anything by posting this, but after I read the original post I couldn't help. Coincidentally (or perhaps not), I recently wrote a little something on the idea of free will and a good God in my blog. Here's the link if you want to read it: Is God Good?

 

[E.C.]

We can't just "decide to believe". God is the one chooses who to draw to him.

If someone can't believe maybe it's because God doesn't want them to.

Still, you know what I was meaning, right?

 

[Phil4987]

No one really. God gave them free will. Free will meaning they wouldn't be mindless drones. Adam and Eve had free will. It was from the snake's tempting and their free will that resulted in the sinful nature.


Sin resulted in the Fall of Man (Adam and Eve's eating of the fruit)

God did not really create sin in the sense of Stephen King writes books and Van Gogh created paintings.

Did you have the intent of making toast or was it just to have the bread warmed a little bit but not burned?


You're expecting too much. You're expecting God to appear right before you in the flesh.

God does not "make" you believe in Him. He allows you to know about him somehow, be it through someone or by some thing, but whether you decide to actually believe is another thing.

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. God is the water. Believing is drinking.

bah! The true Creator could be a sadistic ****. It could love to torture its creations, and remember that your own god-concept allegedly wiped out virtually all life on earth. Furthermore, your "God" invented genocide and inspired men to write a book which became the basis for man's inhumanity to man for millenia. If the true Creator exists(not your god), then it is 'evil' or at leasts condones the actions of 'evil' in an indirect way. If your god exists, then it too does the same.

 

[E.C.]

bah! The true Creator could be a sadistic ****.

Language there not appreciated. I'm trying to cut down on my swearing and it doesn't help when someone else does.

Furthermore, your "God" invented genocide

How so? Did God or Christ say to kill people? Did They specifically tell people to go and kill all those who are Romans or Greeks? Little children who beg for their lives included?

and inspired men to write a book which became the basis for man's inhumanity to man for millenia.

How so? The only self-proclaimed Christians that would do so, are those who are not really Christian at all.

If the true Creator exists(not your god), then it is 'evil' or at leasts condones the actions of 'evil' in an indirect way. If your god exists, then it too does the same.

God allows things to happen. He does not go to someone in their dreams and say "hey buddy, kill Bill, Bob, Joey and Jeff"; like you so make it sound.



I have been nothing but respectful in this thread. If you respect me, I'll continue to respect you. I see no reason for the disrespect.

 

[livingforGod135]

Lets say you come across someone that is badly hurt and in need of a doctor. The Godly path is to help them and take them to a hospital, the selfish path is to ignore them.

yes i agree that it is selfish to ignore them and the right thing to do is to take them to a hospital... and that is what God would want u to do... BUT... just because u do what God wants u to do that doesnt mean u obey n love God... it could be a non-christian who does this, it could be a person of another religion

If you take the Godly path, you have just died to yourself. This is being born again.

being born again is to give over ur life to God, not just by accidentaly doing what he wants people to do... u cant say sum1 who takes that person to hospital is born again to God because he may also ... oh i dunno... practise witchcraft?? and that isnt obeying God

Oh let's see, Moses, Abraham, all those people.

guess u got righteous people in the old testament after all... Jesus died so that everyone could be forgiven, including those who hadnt lived perfect lives

We are all sons and daughters of God.

this is true but Jesus is Gods actual son

Jesus even more so, because he had become one with God in spirit

well yes

through obediance.

through being his son

The concept of the Trinity was created to help explain the nature of God. The "holy ghost" is God, just said in a way that is easier to understand than a panentheitic spiritual being that permeates all.

once again this si simply ur interpretation of what the bible says... the idea of the trinity also shows God as being in everything... and Jesus said he will get his dad to send something else to help us once he had gone... sounds very seperate to me... like part of one trinity

I'll say this yet again. If one truly loves his fellow man, he has love for God, because he loves God's spirit inside everyone. If those people live with true love, they know God even if they don't know God as you know him.

well actually all along u have been saying 'there is no of this love of God rubbish' so u arent saying it 'yet again'
show me someone (other than Jesus) who does truly love his fellow man... taking someone to hospital doesnt make that person loving him... it means they did the right thing

and no... they dont know God... not as i know him or any other way 'the only way to the father is thru the son' now i dont know how u interpret this but to me its pretty obvious: u cant get to God unless u believe in Jesus... and further, have a relationship with him

Why is it important that we know God loves us? The bible says if you love God, you obey him.

i think someone else has already told u that u obey God if u love him

and i was simply proving that there is love of God

It is a theory of mine.

im listening

Here is the theory, and you have to look at reincarnation as being true.

well we have a problem here: reincarnation isnt real but i read it anyway... hope u dont ming me discussing it

My theory is that when one dies, to "get into heaven" their righteousness must have outweighed their sin,

despite that Jesus died to forgive ALL sins

and their understanding and level of spirituality will be factored in.

ah so u r saying that someone who accepts God on his death bed, knowing hardly anything about God and having sinned all his life beorehand, has to go to 'hell' or vack to earth as u say it is??

If one doesn't "make it into heaven", their spirit is sent back down to earth to live another lifetime. The spirit being sent back down to earth is the hell.

i have a problem with this theory... if the spirit is sent back to earth then it is a very real possibility that we have lived before... yes? so if it was so 'hellish' why cant we remember?

Our spirits desire to go back to God. Sending them from him and forcing them into this physical body is like torture. However good our lives are, it is like torture to our spirits.

ah but if only our spirits and we cant tell... then how are we supposed to live better second time around?

Righteous means Godlike. You don't have to be perfect to be Godlike.

hmmm... well i cant even remember what the discussion about righteousness was about... maybe u could refresh my memory?

There is no limit to God. He is everything, and in everything

true

.

All creation is a manifestation of God, and God is beyond.

true

God is you, me,

God is in us

the earth, the universe,

creator of

but more.

yes... he is everything to me... but that does not mean he is physically my car (for instance) he is everything i need, and will provide me with what i need

To try and limit this to three parts is trying to fit God into a box,

no... i know God is bigger than we could ever imagine.... imagine as big as u can... times it by a billion and u wouldnt even be close

limit it to human understanding. This is of course the point of the idea of the Trinity,

God cannot be limited to our understanding

hmmmm... God is not limited to my understanding ('I may not understand u but i know enough to stand in awe of you' its from a song i like... very fitting i think ), but i believe in the trinity

but the problem comes when people limit God to the trinity rather than using the idea merely to understand it.

God is in a trinity... it does not mean he is limited... God in three parts and they all have different 'jobs' as it were, it does not however mean that God cannot be everywhere and everything

I know that flesh cannot exist where spirit does.

really? u know this for a fact? proof? have u been to heaven and know this?

The messianic return will be either one of two things:

ah so u believe he will return... but surely God wouldnt send just a 'normal' man back ... he is sending his son back

#1: There is an outpouring of the spirit among all, and everyone will see the truth.

have u even read revelation?

#2: The messianic spirit will be reincarnated into a new carrier, a new physical body.

well i think it says he looks different... does this mean he is reincarnated? who knows? but i do know he wont be born again... he desends from the sky

I personally believe it's the latter. But I do know that Jesus is not going to ride down out of the clouds on a horse waving a sword.

so now u blatantly oppose what the bible tells us... and how can this be metaphorical? it is a firsthand account of EXACTLY what will happen

Do you understand physics?

it never was my best subject

I don't but I know that you can't just change the rules of the universe on a whim.

God can... he can do anything

This entire world would collapse.

God can do anything... including changing the rules and not letting the world collapse

God created the rules, but he must operate within the rules he created.

God must do nothing

Will you please read Job? This supports what I say exactly.

yeah ok... sometime

This story of satan is a myth. A fairytale.

IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE

how can u say that u believe what the bible writes but then just pick and choose what u believe as to what supports ur theories and discount the rest as 'fairytale'

I listed out a lot of the things I reject but yeah, sort of.

yes but they were mostly things written in the bible i was wondering what sort of 'morals' you reject?

If it is actually sexually immoral, but this is not important and is beside the point.

why is it then when i go 'off topic' u tell me politely to shut it... but when u do i continue to answer u... as it is this just happened to be another part of the discussion that started as a result of us talking about what we think

really off topic is 'lunch was great today'

Laura

 

[livingforGod135]

The analogy is bringing up a situation in which the manufacturer clearly is at fault.
It then simply makes a blanket claim that in this case the manufacturer is not at fault.

and its true... it is also showing though that we ahve a saviour who is willing to fix our 'problem' for us

If you received this very message from a manufacturer of a faulty unit, you would of cause consider the manufacturer liable and at fault for producing a faulty product line (even more since he admits that the fault has already been observed in the prototype). The claim of the manufacturer that he is not liable nor at fault for his products would be invalid, inacceptable and a farce (by virtue of common sense as well as any legislation I know of).

yes but this is God and we know that he is perfect and thus cant be at fault

 

[livingforGod135]

[QUOTE "God can I love you?"

"No. Wait a while."

Doesn't make much sense to me. It just doesn't seem like a "be patient" issue to me.
[/quote]

probably more like 'God can i love you'
'yes it is your choice'

I was being sarcastic. Look, Christianity is by far the most-loved religion in the world. Saying there's a "war on Christianity" is silly.

if its one man against us, it is still a war... and u seem intent on fighting

If there were a war on Christianity, then we wouldn't have "In God We Trust" on our money and "Under God" in our pledge, and there wouldn't even be a debate on gay marriage legalization.

im not american... so my money doesnt have 'in God we trust' on it and if it does... so what? all that means is somebody high up believes in God

Not only is it not being persecuted, a significant number of people are trying to legislate Christianity. Are you really suggesting that every single Christian magazine, every single Christian radio talk show, every single Christian website, are all this whole conspiracy run by secret non-Christians trying to cover up the truth?

no u suggested that

Wait, wait... so:

1) You claim someone was raised from the dead.
2) You say that every single Christian media outlet is all a giant conspiracy that is run by non-Christians.
3) You got this is thirdhand testimony.

Does it seem unrealistic that I'm a tad skeptical?

no not unrealistic... u would never believe it anyway... takes faith... which u dont have

its secondhand not third

where did i say that every christian media place is a conspiracy?

So why do you assert it's false and Christianity is true?

because i choose to believe it

I haven't seen one explanation for it yet. If humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, why aren't there human fossils?

i have given u explanations, u just dont believe them

It just angers me when people don't think.

i noticed... am i 'not thinking'?

You don't say he manipulates evidence, you say that he created the evidence and made it very valid and believable to say that God doesn't exist. No loving God that wants me to believe in him would allow that.

God wants u 2 believe in him thru faith

But that's the thing. How can you just accept something like that without thinking about it? If you want to worship a God that condones these things, it seems like it's a very important issue that you think to yourself about why you do.

i have faith thus all of these questions dont have to be answered for me to believe

Well, crap, my great-grandfather supported Naziism. I'm screwed.

no ur not Jesus forgives

Why do you say that? God orders all sorts of war and killing in the Bible. How do you know that God wasn't really telling Queen Isabella to kill all the Protestants? How do you know that God wasn't really telling the Popes to endorse the Crusades?

i dont but dont u think they would have mentioned it??

It's just something that can be derived from common sense. If the universe is expanding, it's natural to assume that it was once all in one spot. There's no reason that for some reason the whole universe would just change direction spontaneously.

oh so u dont believe in the big bang theory... u created ur own

So you're saying that Genesis was all just metaphorical. I don't know about you, but it just seems odd that any part of the Bible that is blatantly false is labeled "metaphorical".

no i believe genesis is literall... wot i should have said is maybe God sent the universe expanding after he created everything

If the only fact you have in a creationism vs. evolutionism debate that you have is "It's just a rock", then you need to do some more research.

its not the only argument i have and i dont need to do any research... if u wanted to talk about creationism vs evolution go to that forum


i will continue this when i get the chance

Laura

http://www.christianforums.com/friends.php?u=182113

 

[Theogonia]

yes i agree that it is selfish to ignore them and the right thing to do is to take them to a hospital... and that is what God would want u to do... BUT... just because u do what God wants u to do that doesnt mean u obey n love God

Yes you are obeying God, and because of that you love him.

being born again is to give over ur life to God, not just by accidentaly doing what he wants people to do... u cant say sum1 who takes that person to hospital is born again to God because he may also ... oh i dunno... practise witchcraft?? and that isnt obeying God

But, that person is not "accidentally" doing what God wants, they hear the spirit of God within them and follow it.

guess u got righteous people in the old testament after all... Jesus died so that everyone could be forgiven, including those who hadnt lived perfect lives

You didn't have to live a perfect life.

this is true but Jesus is Gods actual son

Since you don't believe in the virgin birth, how can Jesus be God's actual son?

once again this si simply ur interpretation of what the bible says... the idea of the trinity also shows God as being in everything... and Jesus said he will get his dad to send something else to help us once he had gone... sounds very seperate to me... like part of one trinity

It was created to help people understand God. It does not however define God.

taking someone to hospital doesnt make that person loving him... it means they did the right thing

Out of love.

and no... they dont know God... not as i know him or any other way 'the only way to the father is thru the son' now i dont know how u interpret this but to me its pretty obvious: u cant get to God unless u believe in Jesus... and further, have a relationship with him

The only way to truly know God is to know him through the revelation of him that Jesus taught. Love is the entire key. Belief in Jesus has nothing to do with it.

well we have a problem here: reincarnation isnt real

There's no proof of that.

despite that Jesus died to forgive ALL sins

Jesus died as an example.

ah so u r saying that someone who accepts God on his death bed, knowing hardly anything about God and having sinned all his life beorehand, has to go to 'hell' or vack to earth as u say it is??

Not exactly. I honestly have no idea who will be "saved" and who won't be. But I don't make the mistake of deciding who will and won't be.

i have a problem with this theory... if the spirit is sent back to earth then it is a very real possibility that we have lived before... yes? so if it was so 'hellish' why cant we remember?

The spirit does not equal the mind and the soul.

ah but if only our spirits and we cant tell... then how are we supposed to live better second time around?

Is it a true test if you have looked at all the answers beforehand. Can we truly be tested if we knew what we had done wrong and how to avoid those mistakes?

hmmm... well i cant even remember what the discussion about righteousness was about... maybe u could refresh my memory?

I'm not sure I remember either.

creator of

And also part of.

yes... he is everything to me... but that does not mean he is physically my car (for instance) he is everything i need, and will provide me with what i need

Not the car, but he is the tree outside, he is the ground, he is the world.

God is in a trinity... it does not mean he is limited... God in three parts and they all have different 'jobs' as it were, it does not however mean that God cannot be everywhere and everything

If God is no more than the "Trinity" he is limited.

really? u know this for a fact? proof? have u been to heaven and know this?

God is spirit correct? Therefore heaven is a spiritual plane correct? God is infinite correct? Therefore the spiritual is infinite correct? Flesh is finite correct?

We are talking about two completely different types of existance. One is physical, one is spiritual. One is finite, one is eternal.

ah so u believe he will return... but surely God wouldnt send just a 'normal' man back ... he is sending his son back

The messianic spirit is returning.

have u even read revelation?

well i think it says he looks different... does this mean he is reincarnated? who knows? but i do know he wont be born again... he desends from the sky

so now u blatantly oppose what the bible tells us... and how can this be metaphorical? it is a firsthand account of EXACTLY what will happen

Revelation a firsthand account!? HAHA. Even some of the most headstrong Christians realize that Revelation is entirely a METAPHOR.

God can... he can do anything

God can do anything... including changing the rules and not letting the world collapse

Fine. Believe fairy tales.

IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE

how can u say that u believe what the bible writes but then just pick and choose what u believe as to what supports ur theories and discount the rest as 'fairytale'

I'm pretty sure the "story of Satan" is not in the bible and if it is, it was added.

yes but they were mostly things written in the bible i was wondering what sort of 'morals' you reject?

Depends on what morals you're talking about and if they are in fact morals and not doctrine.

why is it then when i go 'off topic' u tell me politely to shut it... but when u do i continue to answer u... as it is this just happened to be another part of the discussion that started as a result of us talking about what we think

We are talking about the nature of God, righteousness, and salvation, that's why I said it was off topic.

Premarital sex doesn't seem to figure into it. :\

 

[livingforGod135]

You've studied it, so you should know how much sense the theory makes. Just at the barebones analysis: Genetic mutation happens, the bad ones die, the good ones keep living and reproduce, and eventually over hundreds of millions of years you get what we have today. It just makes sense logically.

haha i never said i dont believe in survival of the fittest... that is pretty much a fact

Do you have any reason to believe it was a big flood?

yes: faith
do u have any reson to believe it wasnt?

Faith makes such a good mechanism to make a religion unquestionable. You can bring any point before a Christian and often it eventually just comes to them saying "It just takes faith".

might have something to do with the fact that it does take faith... we can put all the evidence that we have (between every christian in the world) in the most well presented and persuasive way and u will still find one more question or one more flaw... because u need faith to take away that lil doubt that u will still have

I just realized: The process of religions forming is kind of like evolution. Christianity has "mutations" like the need for faith, and a terrible eternal Hell for disbelief, which has caused "natural selection", making it a very popular religious belief.

mutations? Christianity? hmmmm... whatever im not even gonna try

Just doesn't make much sense why Jesus would say "Father, why have you forsaken me" when they are the same person.

God is God how can u even try and limit him to a 'person'? yes there are things he does and has done that we dont understand but then 'if God was small enough to put into a box, he wouldnt be big enough to solve my problems'

Just a random paganistic-rooted ritual that seems pointless.

apart from that it remembers Jesus and that he died for us... I find it very useful... it brings everything back to what it is supposed to be about:him

Main Entry: te·lep·a·thy
Pronunciation: t&-'le-p&-thE
Function: noun
: communication from one mind to another by extrasensory means

Prayer is not telepathy... u know this and i am not even going to try and argue u on this because u are just being awkward

Yeah... both explanations for the creation of man and woman are pretty silly.

u think? u think that the creator of the universe was being 'silly'hen he made man from dust and woman from one of mans ribs?


Quote:
Originally Posted by livingforGod135
serpent actually... if ur gonna argue like this at the very least get it right

Serpents are snakes. And they can't talk.

serpent:

1. A reptile of the order Serpentes; a snake.
2. often Serpent
3. In the Bible, the creature that tempted Eve.
4. Satan.

this one could talk

And why did God put the Tree of Knowledge there?

that is a question for u to ask him

You don't think the universe could come out of nothing. That being the case, isn't it even less plausible that a God who is even more complex, could just come out of nothing?

yet another question that we will not know the answer to until we are face to face with God... we are never going to know everything whilst we are on earth

Well you should read it. Since you think anything written in an old book must be true, then I assume you'll accept it as real?

haha i assume nothing... i know that what is written in the bible is true... that doesnt mean i believe everything written in an 'old book' but i may look into it... to satisfy u

Why not? I bought into that whole "You need faith" thing until I started thinking, and I'm yet to come up with a reason why a loving God would require you to believe in him without any proof, in order to spend eternity with him.

faith... he wants u to love him and have faith in him... not just believe in him because u have seen him... u believe ur friends exist because u have seen them... r u really going to try and bring God down to human level?

What about atheists who die before the endtimes?

they have a choice, as do we all
also it is written that not everyone will believe in him even then

I'm just saying, as a Christian, you have no place to say "Why would a loving God want so many people dead?"

please dont tell me what i can or cant say

God doesnt interfere with things like mass murderers, 9/11 etc because free will... we have been over this

And they truly knew it, didn't they? You don't believe that they're right though.

no i dont believe they were right God would want people to die... people wanted people to die

they thought it so much until they believed that they believed it

But for some reason, other Christians truly know that they're right, and you take that as total, 100% proof of Christianity.

why do u continue to try and get me to justify my beliefs with the same arguments over and over... I have enough proof and enough faith

Quote:
Originally Posted by livingforGod135
u didnt start thiking, u stopped, here i am, thinking n replying to u posts as best i can and Christianity still makes perfect sense to me

Yet most of your responses consist of "I can't really argue this, but I have faith". That's not really thinking.

i respond as well as my knowledge of the bible and God allows... when i say i dont feel i am the right person to answer this its because i am not well enough read, and i am not going to make it up because i have a feeling it is in the bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by livingforGod135
did u speak to ur pastor? he(or she) could have given u some answers to these questions, i will do my best tho

God did not tack his son to the cross... it had to be Jesus' choice else we couldnt be foriven 'for God so loved the world...' Im sure u know that verse but it was also Jesus' choice, remeber him praying in some garden before he was betrayed i dont remember the exact words but somethign like, if it is your will let it be done... his choice

Doesn't make much sense when Jesus and God are the same person. Not to mention, it doesn't make much sense how Jesus's few hours of suffering could make up for billions of people's eternities in Hell.

Love

did u ever ask ur pastor these questions? also are u asking these questions because u want answers or are u just trying to get me to see the 'truth'?

I recall a miracle of Jesus feeding 5,000 people with only 2 fish and a loaf of bread in the Gospels. Why did he do that, yet God can't feed the children today?

he can do it, he just doesnt

he doesnt interfere with us, unless we ask... we have had the free will discussion

Under the assumption that God doesn't exist, all of those questions have a simple answer: "Because the Bible isn't true, it was written by a bunch of power-hungry, sexist, homophobic old men."

and what did they gain from writing a 'pack of lies'?

also this is probably not an answer to 'why are there starving children'
'why did 9/11 happen'
'how was the universe created'

Yes. You don't believe Islam is true, even though there are billions that are totally sure it is true. Yet since you and some other people are totally sure Christianity is true, you take that as proof of it.

God is proof

do u go call the islamic ppl hypocrites??

i choose to have faith... please dont call me a hypocrite again

if u read my answers properly maybe u would understand what i am saying


Quote:
Originally Posted by livingforGod135
wrong. i say God may have a greater plan

So those atheists are in Heaven now?

no. I said God may have had a greater plan for them, had they not died

may is the key word here

So you're admitting that you have no control over what you believe?

no i can prove that i have control over what i believe:
my choice to believe in God

No, it's not a choice. Again, can you simply choose not to believe the Holocaust happened?

I am not going to lie to myself i believe in the truth

Well then, explain your different standards. How is the Bible any more proof of God than the book series is proof of Harry Potter?

harry potter was written by a human

the bible is a firsthand account of what God has and will do

Laura

 

[livingforGod135]

Yeah it is. God created every single facet of us, and he created our sinful nature. He put the ingredients in place to commit the first sin (i.e. he put the tree there, he allowed Satan to roam free rather than just destroying him). God is totally at fault for sin.

God is not at fault for any of the bad stuff... it is all either our fault or satans fault

but u r gonna keep giving me the same reply no matter wot n i am gonna continue to say God didnt create sin

So when you are lucky enough to be born in a rich country, it's "God's blessings", but when children starve and die, it's "free will"? A tad bit of a double standard, wouldn't you say?

no i wouldnt... everyone has problems AND good stuff in their life: for the poor person they may be blessed with complete health and a great family but then they are poor, for the rich person, although they are rich they may suffer from deprssion or be an orphan, for the rich and famous celebrity: drug problems... who knows?? but everyone is blessed and everyone has problems

Basically, all things that he does to keep you from Hell... while he may do those things for you, he ignores me and many others.

yes i also love him because he keeps me from eternall suffering, but it is not out of fear

he doesnt ignore anyone, u are all his children all u have to do is reach out to him... why dont u try it if nothng else to satisfy me? 'God if u r out there n u really do love me [like this weirdo on CF keeps telling me] then can u please restore my faith to what it once was' but u have to ask sincerely and who knows maybe all of a sudden u will get what i have been telling u

n guess wot else it proves: 1st of all did u do it? if so cool! n have a lil patience...and btw u chose to either do it or not do it guess free will exists after all


Laura

 

[livingforGod135]

Yes you are obeying God, and because of that you love him.

show me some proof of this; until then i refuse to participate in this part of our discussion because u r telling me the same thing over and over

But, that person is not "accidentally" doing what God wants, they hear the spirit of God within them and follow it.

proof?

oh and btw why dont they hear the spirit of God within them when they god to their witchcraft meeting after helping this person?

You didn't have to live a perfect life.

ok

Since you don't believe in the virgin birth, how can Jesus be God's actual son?

i do believe in the virgin birth, what makes u think i dont?

It was created to help people understand God. It does not however define God.

God is in a trinity and is everywhere.

Out of love.

and this means they love God because? who do u love who u dont know?

The only way to truly know God is to know him through the revelation of him that Jesus taught. Love is the entire key. Belief in Jesus has nothing to do with it.

love had nothing to do with it the other day

belief in Jesus has everything to do it

There's no proof of that.

fine.show me proof it exists

Jesus died as an example.

should i give in here?

please stop going round in circles; its pointless

Not exactly. I honestly have no idea who will be "saved" and who won't be. But I don't make the mistake of deciding who will and won't be.

whats that s'posed to mean?

The spirit does not equal the mind and the soul.

Is it a true test if you have looked at all the answers beforehand. Can we truly be tested if we knew what we had done wrong and how to avoid those mistakes?

this is making no sense, maybe it is because im tired but just in case its not, can u explain to me like im 3? please

I'm not sure I remember either.

hmmm guess we'll drop it then

And also part of.

proof?

Not the car, but he is the tree outside, he is the ground, he is the world.

proof?

If God is no more than the "Trinity" he is limited.

there is no limit to God but he is in a trinity... and u r saying God is one... doesnt this also 'limit' him?

God is spirit correct? Therefore heaven is a spiritual plane correct? God is infinite correct? Therefore the spiritual is infinite correct? Flesh is finite correct?

We are talking about two completely different types of existance. One is physical, one is spiritual. One is finite, one is eternal.

God can do anything so if he wants his son there physically, his son will be there physically

The messianic spirit is returning.

Jesus is returning

Revelation a firsthand account!? HAHA. Even some of the most headstrong Christians realize that Revelation is entirely a METAPHOR.

revelation is a firsthand account

and the question was have YOU read it?

Fine. Believe fairy tales.

fairy tales? it is written in the bible that God can do anything... are u telling me the bible is a fairy tale?

I'm pretty sure the "story of Satan" is not in the bible and if it is, it was added.

im pretty sure it is in there, if its not u have my apologies... i will look for it

Depends on what morals you're talking about and if they are in fact morals and not doctrine.

i am talking aboout what u think is doctrine

We are talking about the nature of God, righteousness, and salvation, that's why I said it was off topic.

ok

Premarital sex doesn't seem to figure into it. :\

it was an example

Laura

 

[elman]

The manufacturer not liable nor at fault for a defect in a prototype going into serial production nonetheless? You must be joking.

Our ability to be unloving is not a defect. It is a necessary part of our being able to be loving.

 

[MikeMcK]

<staff edit>

And so the true nature of ScottyL is revealed.

I can only hope that this God you've made, and not the God of the Bible, is the one you'll stand before on Judgement Day.

Goodbye.

 

[DavetheProphet]

Yeah it is. God created every single facet of us, and he created our sinful nature. He put the ingredients in place to commit the first sin (i.e. he put the tree there, he allowed Satan to roam free rather than just destroying him). God is totally at fault for sin.

Just a quick example before I dive into this: If I make a fire in front of you to warm you and I and tell you not to touch it and you touch it, am I at fault? Is it my fault for putting it there or yours for touching it anyway when I told you not to? You might say "you shouldn't have made the fire in the first place". Well, there were good intentions for putting it there, in this case it was to warm both of us. This all works the same way when we talk about God and us.

God put the tree in the garden to signify true love. Love is true only when choice is involved (no argument there). The choice in this case was choosing God's will and love or the apple from the tree. The product of putting the tree there was an intent for good, (just like making the fire for warmth) making the relationship between God and man real and perfect. But when Eve and Adam ate the fruit, by their choice they messed up. It wasn't God's will and it certainly wasn't His fault.

However, people always have to blame somebody else. People blame Satan for the evil rather than our own fault. Thus, people equally blame God for having the power to destroy Satan but choosing not to. Firstly, I believe God is merciful as well as just, which is why He didn't strike Adam and Eve down the moment they ate the fruit and why He has let all of us live despite all we do wrong. But how dare we say that God is at fault for sin.

God is perfect, holy, and righteous. He hates sin more than anything. The ONLY thing He can't do is sin and He can't be around it, which is why He can't be around us in our sinfulness, hence He sent Jesus to pay our death penalty for our sin. He in his perfection wanted a relationship with us, and from the moment He made us He knew we were going to mess up. But God made us anyway. He will completely destroy sin in the future, though the time we will never know, however He wants us to come to Him and desire Him by choice presently. He doesn't want a robotic love that comes through perfection once the sin is gone. God gave us the free will for a reason, this reason. If you want to blame God for not making us robots then go ahead, but I will thank Him; not just for loving us enough to create us, but creating us with the ability and choice to love Him back.

 

[Theogonia]

show me some proof of this; until then i refuse to participate in this part of our discussion because u r telling me the same thing over and over

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." John 14:15

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me." John 14:21

"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching&#8230; He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." John 14:23-24

"If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love." John 15:10

Notice the last part supports what I've said about Jesus coming to be as God through obediance. Vaguely I'll admit.

"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." 1 John 2:3-6

Jesus said the two most important commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. When that person helps that other person for the right reasons, they are truly loving their neighbor and are also loving God because they are obeying what Jesus taught. All he taught was straight from God, so they are obeying the very words of God.

proof?

Well operating on the idea that nothing good can come of the flesh, and that only good can come of God, of the spirit, any good we do is always from the spirit of God within us.

oh and btw why dont they hear the spirit of God within them when they god to their witchcraft meeting after helping this person?

Because maybe witchcraft isn't evil or maybe *gasp* the spirit of God has reached out to that person through that particular religion.

i do believe in the virgin birth, what makes u think i dont?

You said Jesus was a normal human. Normal humans aren't born that way.

love had nothing to do with it the other day

belief in Jesus has everything to do it

Fine I can see that I can't break through here. Here is another one of the core beliefs of Christianity that I reject.

fine.show me proof it exists

You stated as a fact that it is false. The burden is on you to prove it.

please stop going round in circles; its pointless

Okay.

whats that s'posed to mean?

In your question you asked "is this person saved or not", I'm saying I have no idea and don't want to judge. But I've thought about it and the answer is pretty easy, if that person, no matter how bad a life he has lived, truly repents, then I believe he will be saved.

this is making no sense, maybe it is because im tired but just in case its not, can u explain to me like im 3? please

In your question you asked why wouldn't we be able to remember our past lives.

Say you have a test in school. If the teacher gives you the answers before you take the test, it's not really testing you is it?

If we remembered our past lives, we would know the answers to all the situations we had been in, and therefore breeze through them.

We wouldn't be truly tested then would we?

proof?

Here are some verses:

Psalms 18:15 "Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils."


Job 34:14 "If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;"

Job 34:15 "All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."


Job 27:3 "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils"


John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Vague but the idea is there.

there is no limit to God but he is in a trinity... and u r saying God is one... doesnt this also 'limit' him?

You may be right, because to say he was "one complete" being would be to imply he has an end, a completeness. Good call.

God can do anything so if he wants his son there physically, his son will be there physically

I think it makes no sense. Since what I believe is based on what is logical, then I reject that idea.

Think about it, how does Jesus eat? How does he sleep? What does he do besides float in space for an endless amount of time?

Jesus is returning

I guess I can't break through here either.

revelation is a firsthand account

Revelation was a vision given to John. Visions usually aren't counted as firsthand accounts of the future.

and the question was have YOU read it?

Yes and I have no clue how anyone could believe it was anything other than metaphors and symbolic writings.

fairy tales? it is written in the bible that God can do anything... are u telling me the bible is a fairy tale?

And what if it is? What if the entire bible is just a big example, using parables? Does that matter? Does that mean there's no God? No, because what you do is take knowledge of how to live righteously from that book, and you live the knowledge. The knowledge is not in your head, but in your heart and soul.

And when you die you know that you've made a difference in the world because of the way you've lived, however small. That is the meaning of life.

im pretty sure it is in there, if its not u have my apologies... i will look for it

Lucifer is a Latin word meaning "light-bearer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), a Roman astrological term for the "Morning Star", the planet Venus. The word Lucifer was the direct translation of the Septuagint Greek heosphoros, ("dawn-bearer"); (cf. Greek phosphoros, "light-bearer") and the Hebrew Helel, ("Bright one") used by Jerome in the Vulgate, having mythologically the same meaning as Prometheus who brought fire to humanity. In that passage, Isaiah 14:12, it referred to one of the popular honorific titles of a Babylonian king; however, later interpretations of the text, and the influence of embellishments in works such as Dante's The Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost, led to the common idea in Christian mythology and folklore that Lucifer was a poetic appellation of Satan.

Lucifer is a poetic name for the "morning star", a close translation of the Greek eosphoros, the "dawn-bringer" (son of Eos, "dawn"), which appears in the Odyssey and in Hesiod's Theogony.

A classic Roman use of "Lucifer" appears in Virgil's Georgics (III, 324-5):
Luciferi primo cum sidere frigida rura
carpamus, dum mane novum, dum gramina canent"
"Let us hasten, when first the Morning Star appears,
To the cool pastures, while the day is new, while the grass is dewy"

This gives you an idea of where Lucifer originated from. A friend of mine had a long write up about the origin of the story of Lucifer, I'll post it when I can get it.

i am talking aboout what u think is doctrine

Most of the things we've been argueing about are doctrinal Christian beliefs. That is, if you don't believe one certain way, you are not a Christian and are not saved.

 

[Theogonia]

And so the true nature of ScottyL is revealed.

Anyone who can consistantly ignore the point I was making and just keep saying that what I write wouldn't be God's word, must have a problem.

The entire point was that what if what I wrote was the true word of God?

I can only hope that this God you've made, and not the God of the Bible, is the one you'll stand before on Judgement Day.

The God I've "made" is the God of the bible. Realized in truth.

Goodbye.

Haha, this is the cliche:

"unbeliever" argues, "unbeliever" makes good points, "Christian" gets frustrated, "Christian" says "goodbye and have a nice life in hell"

Oh, and I shouldn't have even asked if you had a handicap. I know you have one. It's called Christianity. At least your strain of it.

 

[elman]

Just a quick example before I dive into this: If I make a fire in front of you to warm you and I and tell you not to touch it and you touch it, am I at fault? Is it my fault for putting it there or yours for touching it anyway when I told you not to? You might say "you shouldn't have made the fire in the first place". Well, there were good intentions for putting it there, in this case it was to warm both of us. This all works the same way when we talk about God and us.

God put the tree in the garden to signify true love. Love is true only when choice is involved (no argument there). The choice in this case was choosing God's will and love or the apple from the tree. The product of putting the tree there was an intent for good, (just like making the fire for warmth) making the relationship between God and man real and perfect. But when Eve and Adam ate the fruit, by their choice they messed up. It wasn't God's will and it certainly wasn't His fault.

However, people always have to blame somebody else. People blame Satan for the evil rather than our own fault. Thus, people equally blame God for having the power to destroy Satan but choosing not to. Firstly, I believe God is merciful as well as just, which is why He didn't strike Adam and Eve down the moment they ate the fruit and why He has let all of us live despite all we do wrong. But how dare we say that God is at fault for sin.

God is perfect, holy, and righteous. He hates sin more than anything. The ONLY thing He can't do is sin and He can't be around it, which is why He can't be around us in our sinfulness, hence He sent Jesus to pay our death penalty for our sin. He in his perfection wanted a relationship with us, and from the moment He made us He knew we were going to mess up. But God made us anyway. He will completely destroy sin in the future, though the time we will never know, however He wants us to come to Him and desire Him by choice presently. He doesn't want a robotic love that comes through perfection once the sin is gone. God gave us the free will for a reason, this reason. If you want to blame God for not making us robots then go ahead, but I will thank Him; not just for loving us enough to create us, but creating us with the ability and choice to love Him back.

I think God has free will also. I believe that God can be unloving but choses to always be loving and He is completely trustworthy in that we can depend on Him to be loving.