The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

[MikeMcK]

The Bible is not evidence of itself!

I don't know what you mean by "proof of itself" but it can be examined to see that it is historically accurate, scientifically accurate, and internally consistent.

What if my prayer was "I have asked and now I hope it happens, because I'm losing my faith and I don't want to, please help God"? Because I prayed that many times.

What if it is? What obligation does God have to answer the prayers of His enemies?

Your "prayer" reminds me of a line from a Bob Dylan song, which, unfortunately, I can't post here.

God sure is peculiar about his requirements for prayer, especially since he said "Ask and it shall be given to you..."

Out of context.

Tell me, where are the human fossils? If a flood can cause things to fossilize in under 4,000 years, then please show me some fossilized human remains.

You do know that the lack of human fossils can also be used against evolution, right?

The Bible also says that we should kill people who work on Sundays, rebellious teenagers, gay people, blasphemers, etc....

You say you were a Christian, but you don't know that those things were only given to the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant and that we're not under the Old Covenant anymore?

Fun fact: In the Bible, God kills an estimated 32.9 million people. Satan kills 10, and those 10 were part of a "bet" made by God, so he's partially responsible.

1. God has the authority to take life. Satan does not.

2. There is no such "bet" in the Bible. I'm assuming you're referring to the story of Job, but your reading of it is incorrect.

What evidence do you have for creationism? There's a hell of a lot more evidence for evolution and the Big Bang...

OK. Why don't you give us your best three arguments for evolution and the "big bang".

Yup. And no need to point out the Bible verse where God says "If they don't believe Moses and the prophets, they won't believe even if someone rises from the dead"... I know that verse, and it is largely because of its absurdity that I don't believe.

Actually, it's not absurd at all. Jesus Christ rose from the dead and you don't believe that.

Yes, God created every aspect of my soul, including those aspects that would cause me to reject him

No, God did not create your sin nature.

he didn't bother changing my soul or just not create me in the first place.

Do you want your "soul" changed?

If I had a choice, I'd still be a Christian.

When you were a Christian, assuming for a moment that there can be such a thing as an "ex-Christian", what was your Christianity based on?

1. He created me in the ways that would make me become an atheist.

No. He did not create your sin nature. God has given you termendous evidence to His existence.

You simply choose to shrug it off.

2. He practically begged Adam and Eve to commit the first sin

Actually, He commanded them not to and warned them that they would die.

3. He allowed Satan, the cause of deception, to roam the Earth and keep people from getting to Heaven, rather than obliterating him.

Satan doesn't have the power or authority to keep anyone from Heaven. The Bible teaches that man's sin keeps him from Heaven, not Satan.

4. He allowed men to create all sorts of other false religions with exclusivistic principles, so that Christianity is indistinguishable from all of these false religions

Actually, when compared to other religions, Christianity towers above them.

His chosen criteria for salvation is belief, something I have no control over

0f course you do. You have the ability to repent o your sins and put your faith in Christ.

6. He leaves no tangible evidence that he exists

Right. Creation doesn't really exist. The Earth, the stars, the trees, the Universe, you just keep on pretending it doesn't exist.

I'm too lazy...

I don't know about lazy, but I do think that the idea that there is no God makes you very comfortable. If there is a God, then you're accountable to Him and I believe it's just easier to pretend that He doesn't exist than to think about the fact that you're going to stand before Him and be judged.

 

[m9lc]

then like i said before they were probably thinking along the lines of 'oh well if it gets them to come to faith...' i dont think it is right though

ok i'll bear that in mind

no it would not interfere with free will because you or i asked... it would be interfering if God took the feelings away without us asking
if it was possible to simply make bad feelings go away by ourselves whenever i want i think i would have done it by now

Well, gee, when I asked God to give me faith I got nothing. I guess God loves you more than I.

unless of course they didnt feel like selling the story... possibility u think?

No. It's quite unfeasible that Fox and every Christian media outlet or anything wouldn't report on this.

u will be spelling it out for a while, because, for christians, the bible is plenty evidence of God and the events in it

What makes the Bible evidence of Christianity, while the Qur'an is not evidence of Islam? And the epic Odyssey is not evidence of Greco-Roman mythology?

ask with faith... not ask in a vague kinda way that is a faint last hope thing
if ur prayer was 'i have asked...' then i have got to ask u did u ever actually voice the words 'God please strengthen my faith, i do not want to lose my faith in u but i am scared that i will without your help, please God i cant do this alone...' because although i have said for a long time that i am living for God it wasnt until a while ago that i actually said 'God i want to live for u i ask u into my life and please show me what u want me to do' and man... that was awesome

Yup.

i dont have access to fossils

That is because humans haven't been around long enough to fossilize. And dinosaurs have. Because dinosaurs were here before humans.

no, i havent read much of the bible... old testament by any chance?

I'm guessing you haven't been a Christian for a long time or something?

But essentially, God told his followers to kill every living thing, every man, woman, child, and baby, in Jericho, except for this one prostitute that helped them out.

guess i should be dead then... except this is old testament rules, things have changed

God's law doesn't "change", according to the Bible. It lasts forever and it's perfect, so it doesn't need changing.

[BIBLE]Isaiah 40:8[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Psalm 19:7[/BIBLE]

satan ruins lives... and continues to do so... when was the last time u heard of someone struck down by God? because God killing people is old testament stuff, the people needed disipline...

I haven't seen God or Satan do anything, because they don't exist. I'm just saying that according to your Bible, God is responsible for a hell of a lot more violence and killing than Satan. In fact, he still is... after all, Bush says that God told him to go to Iraq.

im gonna get back to this in the week because i dont have much time and its a real long reply

wasnt gonna point that out, i havent read that verse, wheres it from? im curious

[BIBLE]Luke 16:19-31[/BIBLE]

if God came and stood in front of u dont u think it would a) be somewhat intimidating and b)remove all point to faith

a) Yes, but there was nothing I would have loved more at the time that I was praying desperately.
b) What do you mean it would "remove all point to faith"?

so u believe Jesus died for ur sins (in his deluded state) dont u think that was nice?

No, I don't believe he died for my sins. I think he probably didn't claim to be God as the Bible says, and he was crucified because he challenged the Pharisees for their corruption and they wanted to remove him from being a threat.

Even if he did think that he died for my sins, yes it was nice, but if he was really just deluded, then I fail to see how this is relevant.

i know 2+2=4 and it is true
i think 2+2=5 and it is not true
what i know to be true is true, what i think to be true is not necaserily true

Again, don't you think those men who flew planes into the World Trade Center absolutely knew they were doing the work of God? Yet you think they are insane.

u got me curious so i asked someone i know, this is the response i got... dont attack it because i cant argue for it remember:

In any court of law or when a person is pulled over by police we (the
offenders) like to argue. Often citing that we didn't know or that we didn't
see the signs. God, I believe, is giving us the 'choice' so we cannot argue
with him that we could have done the right thing. We prove our own actions
even though He does know what we would do. He allows us the chance to prove
it to ourselves.

Doesn't explain why he created me in the way that he did, knowing that how he created me would send me to Hell.

also a random thought from me... everything can be used for good by God, including people who dont come to faith

u do have a choice
do u want to be christian?

Not really, not anymore... I don't want to believe that there's a slavery-condoning, genocidal, ruthless and evil God like the Bible presents.

want to share?

Oh, basically just that it took me several years for me to admit to myself that I was an atheist, and I got dragged into the belief of atheism kicking and screaming. But now that I am an atheist the world makes so much more sense to me.

im not going to tell u that u know God exists... but i pray that u would know it again

its ok... no stress

i imagine it would frustrate u... i know i dont like being told what i think or know

if thats the way u want to view it, yes asking makes u christian

no

on fire= enthusiastic for and about God, but u already knew that... ur a smart guy

Again, I'm just reiterating. Just because someone really knows that they're right and they will do anything for their belief, doesn't mean that they're actually right.

its true

how do u know what will or wont happen in the future? God may have a greater plan for ur life

Haha, good luck with that one, God... but this fact could be applied to anyone who dies an atheist, even if somehow I do go back to Christianity.

by setting down rules?

By putting a tree in there for no real reason and saying "DON'T EAT FROM THIS" and creating them with a sinful nature so that they would want to eat it and letting Satan go and tempt them to do it? And he expected them to go for eternity without once eating from it?

evil had then been created and he had to send it somewhere... he didnt want it in his house

It doesn't make much sense why he didn't just obliterate Satan with his omnipotence.

free will

By giving men the "free will" to make thousands of other religions, he has let them make it look ridiculous that Christianity is somehow different from all the others. How can he blame me for that?

u do

Really? Here's a fun experiment for you. Try to believe that wind is caused by a giant pink dragon that is blowing on you. Try really hard. Try to believe it deep down in your heart. Can you do it? I'm going to assume not.

My mind looks at the evidence and processes it, and gives me an answer, whether it's "True", "False", or "I don't know". I have no conscious control over it.

oh he does

Like what? "The Earth"/"nature" doesn't count. Because a) we have been making advances for years on fully understanding the workings of the planet, and b) this is no more proof of Christianity than it is proof of Hinduism.

try very hard? why should he try? he already created u, its your choice, and where u will live for eternity

No it's not, as I said above. But the odd thing is, it really seems like God is trying to find an excuse to send as many people to Hell as possible...

they are not based off fear... were yours?

i am not reluctant to share, i just wanted to be sure that u werent going to attack my own personal story... because i is personal

If not fear, what were they based on?

 

[Theogonia]

so question for you, scottyl: what do non-Trinitarian Messianics believe? i've never really heard of that. is it a sect of Judaism?

It just means that I'm a Messianic Jew, a Jew that believes Jesus was the messiah, but I don't believe in the Trinity.

u believe in God yet u are arguing against him??

I'm argueing against doctrine that has sprung up around God that I believe to be false.

i know u dont have to be christian to have Gods love... everybody is loved by him

No, I mean you don't have to be a Christian to have Christ within you.

The authority behind it.

But how would you know that my authority wasn't the right one?

Do you believe that those outside of Christ face God's wrath?

First, God is going to judge everyone according to their level of spirituality and understanding.

Second, you could say that, but you don't have to be a Christian to be in Christ.

Being in Christ has to do with how you live. If you model your life after him or not.

His actual blood does not save us. Blood represents life. His life is what saves us. Modeling yourself after his example.

 

[MikeMcK]

No, I mean you don't have to be a Christian to have Christ within you.

And the scripture you would cite to back this up would be...

But how would you know that my authority wasn't the right one?

Because you're not God.

First, God is going to judge everyone according to their level of spirituality and understanding.

Not according to the Bible. The Bible teaches us that God is going to judge everyone according to whether or not they've kept His laws.

Second, you could say that, but you don't have to be a Christian to be in Christ.

Once again, where do you find this in scripture?

Being in Christ has to do with how you live. If you model your life after him or not.

Actually, it has a great deal to do with it.

His actual blood does not save us. Blood represents life. His life is what saves us. Modeling yourself after his example.

As usual, your opinion contradicts scripture. It was by the shedding of Christ's blood that we may receive the remission of sins.

 

[Theogonia]

And the scripture you would cite to back this up would be...

Scripture does not say anything to the contrary.

I know because I have seen it. If you're too blind to see it I can't help you.

Because you're not God.

How do you know?

Not according to the Bible. The Bible teaches us that God is going to judge everyone according to whether or not they've kept His laws.

Really? I thought that the only factor in his "just" judging was if they were a Christian or not.

Once again, where do you find this in scripture?

I have seen it in life.

Actually, it has a great deal to do with it.

I'm glad you agree.

As usual, your opinion contradicts scripture. It was by the shedding of Christ's blood that we may receive the remission of sins.

As usual, you miss the metaphor of Christ's blood equaling his life.

It is through his life that we can come to God, not his death.

His death only represents being born again. Dying to our flesh and being reborn in God.

 

[livingforGod135]

It just means that I'm a Messianic Jew, a Jew that believes Jesus was the messiah, but I don't believe in the Trinity.

u believe in Jesus and that he died for your sins (so u can be washed clean by his blood i might add)? but u dont believe in God, as in the one who sent Jesus to die for ur sins? i find it very hard to see how someone can believe in Jesus but not tthe trinity

I'm argueing against doctrine that has sprung up around God that I believe to be false.

like what? (other than the trinity)

Laura

 

[livingforGod135]

Well, gee, when I asked God to give me faith I got nothing. I guess God loves you more than I.

God loves everybody the same, we are all his children

btw did u know: 'no' is an answer, so is 'be patient' answered prayers aren't all about 'yes' God answers every prayer just not always with the answer we want

No. It's quite unfeasible that Fox and every Christian media outlet or anything wouldn't report on this.

i beg to differ

What makes the Bible evidence of Christianity, while the Qur'an is not evidence of Islam? And the epic Odyssey is not evidence of Greco-Roman mythology?

isnt it obvious? the bible is the word of God

Yup.

i believe i said earlier 'no' and 'be patient' are answers

That is because humans haven't been around long enough to fossilize. And dinosaurs have. Because dinosaurs were here before humans.

maybe they were... i have heard a possible explanation that dinosaurs existed before the flood which is why we have fossils of them... another is that satan put the fossils there... but i dont find these kind of questions to be top of my priorities to get answered... mainly because i have faith that God knows what he is doing

I'm guessing you haven't been a Christian for a long time or something?

a couple of years hav gone since i actually started getting serious about God, i have always been a christian just never read much

and its not such a bad thing that i havent been a christian for long, nor is it so bad that i havent read the bible back to back

But essentially, God told his followers to kill every living thing, every man, woman, child, and baby, in Jericho, except for this one prostitute that helped them out.

it is old testament though isnt it... which means old testament rules

God's law doesn't "change", according to the Bible. It lasts forever and it's perfect, so it doesn't need changing.

law hasnt changed, those things are still wrong but punishment has changed

i know Gods law is perfect

I haven't seen God or Satan do anything, because they don't exist.

hate to break it to u and all that but yeah they do

I'm just saying that according to your Bible, God is responsible for a hell of a lot more violence and killing than Satan.

you are just picking lil bits, u need to put it into context with the whole bible and realise that there were REASONS
satan however just wants to ruin peoples lives and drag them away from God

In fact, he still is... after all, Bush says that God told him to go to Iraq.

u believe everything that people tell u? if so then: GOD EXISTS AND LOVES YOU MORE THAN YOU WOULD EVER KNOW
u also need to know that Bush is human and as such he sins... maybe he lied... or maybe God did tell him to go to Iraq, does that mean once there he continued to do as God told him?

ok big bang theory: you are telling me that u believe in this theory that tells us that before anything, everything was one giant vaccuum (vaccuum being defined as emptyspace nothing existing in it at all) and in this giant vaccuum two dust particles existed (dust being like 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% come from humans or human activities) and on the slim-ist of chances these two dust particles (in this vaccuum that nothing should exist in) gently bump into each other and from this gentle bump there is a massive BANG and when the smoke clears there is earth formed from two dust particles (granted it is only a rock) and complete with its first life forms (bacteria i believe) hmmmmmm just a lil bit on the dodgy side dont u think? and to top it off with evolution that means that every living thing around u was evolved from this bacteria, AND the bacteria stayed around... so us and snails and trees and bears are all evolved from this bacteria, on a rock?? hmmmm

so after this... i dont really need proof of creation, it is just obviously more likely... and although i dont need more proof, i have it (bible, power of prayer...)

a) Yes, but there was nothing I would have loved more at the time that I was praying desperately.
b) What do you mean it would "remove all point to faith"?

hebrews 11:1 'now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen'

hebrews 11:3 'by faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear'

but being a smart guy and obviously much better read than me u would have already known these, right?

No, I don't believe he died for my sins. I think he probably didn't claim to be God as the Bible says, and he was crucified because he challenged the Pharisees for their corruption and they wanted to remove him from being a threat.

well he did challange the pharisees, by telling the truth... except what he showed was different

Even if he did think that he died for my sins, yes it was nice, but if he was really just deluded, then I fail to see how this is relevant.

i was just curious, probably shouldnt have carried it on... he did die for ur sins, and he wasnt deluded

Again, don't you think those men who flew planes into the World Trade Center absolutely knew they were doing the work of God? Yet you think they are insane.

i dont think they are insane... i think they were manipulated by the enemy... and they thought they were doing the work of God... what God would want so many people killed?

Doesn't explain why he created me in the way that he did, knowing that how he created me would send me to Hell.

he didnt create sin

Not really, not anymore... I don't want to believe that there's a slavery-condoning, genocidal, ruthless and evil God like the Bible presents.

still old testament stuff... and where does it say that God condones slavery i have read a few times God commanding alaves to obey their masters but this doesnt mean he condones it... he is simply thinking of what will be best for his children who were slaves

Oh, basically just that it took me several years for me to admit to myself that I was an atheist, and I got dragged into the belief of atheism kicking and screaming. But now that I am an atheist the world makes so much more sense to me.

this is simply what the enemy wants u to believe... try thinking of a time in ur life when u were really strong in ur faith... did the world not make sense to u then?

Again, I'm just reiterating. Just because someone really knows that they're right and they will do anything for their belief, doesn't mean that they're actually right.

i know i am right about God and i am right, i think i am doing the right thing by replying to you, but i might not be

Haha, good luck with that one, God... but this fact could be applied to anyone who dies an atheist, even if somehow I do go back to Christianity.

what fact could be applied to anyone who dies an atheist?

oh and yeah, i dont need luck, i have God by my side, with me every step of the way, who needs luck when they have that?

By putting a tree in there for no real reason and saying "DON'T EAT FROM THIS" and creating them with a sinful nature so that they would want to eat it and letting Satan go and tempt them to do it? And he expected them to go for eternity without once eating from it?

God dint create sin... i read something on here a while ago... i will post it in a min
yes he expected them to go for eternity without eating from it
doesnt mean he 'begged' them to sin

By giving men the "free will" to make thousands of other religions, he has let them make it look ridiculous that Christianity is somehow different from all the others. How can he blame me for that?

he's not gonna blame u for something that isnt ur fault... but free will is a gift, he isnt just gonna take it back

Really? Here's a fun experiment for you. Try to believe that wind is caused by a giant pink dragon that is blowing on you. Try really hard. Try to believe it deep down in your heart. Can you do it? I'm going to assume not.

theres a problem to ur fun experiment... i dont want to believe that a pink dragon makes the wind

My mind looks at the evidence and processes it, and gives me an answer, whether it's "True", "False", or "I don't know". I have no conscious control over it.

but it is still choosing

Like what? "The Earth"/"nature" doesn't count. Because a) we have been making advances for years on fully understanding the workings of the planet, and b) this is no more proof of Christianity than it is proof of Hinduism.

nobody fully understands the workings of the planet and we wont have all the answers until we stand face to face with God
we have been having this conversation of proof for a while know and i think the problem is that we both have a different concept of proof, because i count the earth as proof, same as i count the bible and the power of prayer and the fact jesus died and rose again

No it's not, as I said above. But the odd thing is, it really seems like God is trying to find an excuse to send as many people to Hell as possible...

and as i said before it is ur choice
he doesnt need an excuse to send as many people as possible to hell, he has a reason to send all of us there

If not fear, what were they based on?

love

Laura

 

[Theogonia]

and that he died for your sins

No. His death was an example, not a salvation device.

but u dont believe in God, as in the one who sent Jesus to die for ur sins?

I believe in God.

i find it very hard to see how someone can believe in Jesus but not tthe trinity

Simple. Jesus was a man who God chose to mainfest himself through. Jesus was not God. Jesus was a manifestation of God. Jesus was God made comprehensible to us, he was used to help us better understand God.

like what? (other than the trinity)

The virgin birth, the idea that all non-Christians go to hell, the literal idea of hell, the idea of there being no righteousness, the idea that Jesus was God, the idea that Jesus is God, the idea that Jesus is physically up in heaven, the idea of Satan, the list goes on and on.

I reject pretty much every core belief of Christianity.

Christianity at it's heart I don't reject. Christianity as it was supposed to be I don't reject.

Christianity as it is today, I do reject.

 

[Theogonia]

Because you're not God.

Let us see.

Your reason for rejecting my book would be on the grounds that I wasn't God.

Yet how would you know? What if I was the true God, and the bible was written by a fraud?

 

[livingforGod135]

No. His death was an example, not a salvation device.

an example of what... Jesus died so our sins could be forgiven

Simple. Jesus was a man who God chose to mainfest himself through. Jesus was not God. Jesus was a manifestation of God.

hmmm where did u get this idea from, and do you have anything to back it up?

Jesus was God made comprehensible to us,

yes... part of the trinity that makes up God

he was used to help us better understand God

and to die for our sins

The virgin birth

of course... beause jesus was just a normal man

the idea that all non-Christians go to hell

ok so people who dont love God can get into heaven... thats news to me, how come? and once again, evidence?

the literal idea of hell

what is ur idea of hell then? just not heaven? i have heard a few... one was fire n stuff, one was ice n stuff, and the other was a place devoid of God

the idea of there being no righteousness

who said there is no righteousness (righteousness being a Godly way of living right?... so living for God?? or failing that... Jesus)

the idea that Jesus was God

Jesus is the son of God, part of the trinity that makes up God: God the father, God the son and God the holy ghost

the idea that Jesus is God

see above

the idea that Jesus is physically up in heaven

where do u think he is then... hell?

the idea of Satan

how else can there be evil??

the list goes on and on.

go for your life

I reject pretty much every core belief of Christianity.

Christianity at it's heart I don't reject.

core= middle
so core beliefs of christianity are wrong... but christianity at its heart is right... its pretty much the same thing... u r saying u disagree n agree with the same thing

Christianity as it was supposed to be I don't reject.

ok so, i ur view, how was it supposed to be?

Christianity as it is today, I do reject.

why?

Laura​

 

[livingforGod135]

God dint create sin... i read something on here a while ago... i will post it in a min

well here it is:

RECALL NOTICE!


The Maker of all human beings is recalling all units manufactured,
regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary and
central component of the heart. This is due to a malfunction in the
original prototype units code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of
the same defect in all subsequent units.

This defect has been technically termed "Subsequential Internal
Non-Morality," or more commonly known as S.I.N., as it is primarily
expressed. Some other symptoms include:

1. Loss of direction
2. Foul vocal emissions
3. Amnesia of origin
4. Lack of peace and joy
5. Selfish or violent behavior
6. Depression or confusion in the mental component
7. Fearfulness
8. Idolatry
9. Rebellion

The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect,
is providing factory-authorized repair and service free of charge to
correct this S.I.N defect.

The Repair Technician, Jesus, has most generously offered to bear the
entire burden of the staggering cost of these repairs. There is no
additional fee required. The number to call for repair in all areas is:
P-R-A-Y-E-R. Once connected, please upload your burden of S.I.N through
the REPENTANCE procedure. Next, download ATONEMENT from the Repair
Technician, Jesus, into the heart component.

No matter how big or small the S.I.N defect is, Jesus will replace it
with:
1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Patience
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self control

Please see the operating manual, the B.I.B.L.E. (Believers'
Instruction Before Leaving Earth) for further details on the use of these
fixes. WARNING: Continuing to operate the human being unit without
correction voids any manufacturer warranties, exposing the unit to dangers
and problems too numerous to list and will result in the human unit being
permanently impounded.

For free emergency service, call on Jesus. DANGER: The human being
units not responding to this recall action will have to be scrapped in the
furnace. The S.I.N defect will not be permitted to enter Heaven so as to
prevent contamination of that facility.

Please assist where possible by notifying others of this important
recall notice, and you may contact the Creator anytime by "kneemail".

 

[Theogonia]

an example of what... Jesus died so our sins could be forgiven

He died as an example of how we should die to ourselves.

Basically taking the Godly path when faced with a moral decision.

hmmm where did u get this idea from, and do you have anything to back it up?

It's the correct interpetation of what the bible already says.

yes... part of the trinity that makes up God

There is no trinity. The trinity is a myth.

and to die for our sins

No.

of course... beause jesus was just a normal man

Most Christians don't believe so.

ok so people who dont love God can get into heaven... thats news to me, how come? and once again, evidence?

If you love God, you obey him. There are many Christians who do not obey God, and are some of the most horrible people you could imagine.

If you obey God, you love him. Non-Christians obey God all the time.

what is ur idea of hell then? just not heaven? i have heard a few... one was fire n stuff, one was ice n stuff, and the other was a place devoid of God

Whatever hell may be, it is not eternal.

who said there is no righteousness (righteousness being a Godly way of living right?... so living for God?? or failing that... Jesus)

Christians say that no one can be righteous.

Jesus is the son of God, part of the trinity that makes up God: God the father, God the son and God the holy ghost

There is only one God. The trinity as a representation of different parts or sides of God I could deal with.

But the Christian belief of the Trinity separates these three aspects into 3 persons. Thus equaling polytheism.

where do u think he is then... hell?

Jesus died. The only thing that is in heaven is the messianic spirit that was in him, returned to God.

Plus, heaven is a spiritual place. No physical being could exist there.

how else can there be evil??

Evil is only the absence of good, or in this case, the absence of God.

That being said, I do believe in "satan", but only as a tool used by God to test us.

core= middle
so core beliefs of christianity are wrong... but christianity at its heart is right... its pretty much the same thing... u r saying u disagree n agree with the same thing

I meant the core as in the doctrinal core, and the heart as in the truth that Christianity does possess.

ok so, i ur view, how was it supposed to be?

I believe "Christianity" was meant to be Judaism with the understanding of God as brought about by the messiah. Not a separate, radically different religion.

why?

Because it has spawned atrocities such as this:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/

And many branches promote hate and intolerance.

There are still good Christians though, a lot of good ones.

I reject the church's Christianity, not the real thing.

 

[m9lc]

God loves everybody the same, we are all his children

btw did u know: 'no' is an answer, so is 'be patient' answered prayers aren't all about 'yes' God answers every prayer just not always with the answer we want

I'd think that with a matter of my faith and eternal salvation, a loving God would at least help me with that first starting step.

i beg to differ

Yes, because even though it's the most powerful and most loved religion in the world, every single Christian media outlet is actually a double agent for Satan. Even the entire Vatican, yes they're all against it trying to cover up this miraculous resurrection story you have, because the world is waging a war on Christ.

It is totally impossible that if prayer actually raised someone from the dead, that I wouldn't see or hear anything about it.

isnt it obvious? the bible is the word of God

No, not really. The Qur'an is extremely similar to the OT.

maybe they were... i have heard a possible explanation that dinosaurs existed before the flood which is why we have fossils of them...

If dinosaurs ever lived at the same time as people did, then there would be human fossils. There aren't.

another is that satan put the fossils there... but i dont find these kind of questions to be top of my priorities to get answered... mainly because i have faith that God knows what he is doing

If God really wants salvation for all mankind, then he wouldn't allow Satan to create false evidence like that. "Free will" blah blah, I don't care, God should have put the restriction on Satan that he can't create valid reasons to disbelieve.

a couple of years hav gone since i actually started getting serious about God, i have always been a christian just never read much

and its not such a bad thing that i havent been a christian for long, nor is it so bad that i havent read the bible back to back

it is old testament though isnt it... which means old testament rules

law hasnt changed, those things are still wrong but punishment has changed

I was always under the impression that slavery (God explicitly permits the beating of slaves in Exodus 21:20), genocide, and infanticide were always wrong. A perfect God would never change his standards.

i know Gods law is perfect

hate to break it to u and all that but yeah they do

you are just picking lil bits, u need to put it into context with the whole bible and realise that there were REASONS
satan however just wants to ruin peoples lives and drag them away from God

There is never a "reason" to kill a baby because of who his parents were. Ever.

u believe everything that people tell u? if so then: GOD EXISTS AND LOVES YOU MORE THAN YOU WOULD EVER KNOW
u also need to know that Bush is human and as such he sins... maybe he lied... or maybe God did tell him to go to Iraq, does that mean once there he continued to do as God told him?

It doesn't really matter. The fact is, throughout history, religion has caused and rationalized more murder than any other force.

ok big bang theory: you are telling me that u believe in this theory that tells us that before anything, everything was one giant vaccuum (vaccuum being defined as emptyspace nothing existing in it at all) and in this giant vaccuum two dust particles existed (dust being like 99.9999999999999999999999999999999% come from humans or human activities) and on the slim-ist of chances these two dust particles (in this vaccuum that nothing should exist in) gently bump into each other and from this gentle bump there is a massive BANG and when the smoke clears there is earth formed from two dust particles (granted it is only a rock) and complete with its first life forms (bacteria i believe) hmmmmmm

First, I dunno where you heard this "two dust particles" thing. I just know that the universe started in an infinite singularity, and while I don't understand the physics behind it, it just began expanding for some reason.

It's really just logical to assume that, since the universe is expanding now, at one point it was all in one spot.

just a lil bit on the dodgy side dont u think? and to top it off with evolution that means that every living thing around u was evolved from this bacteria, AND the bacteria stayed around... so us and snails and trees and bears are all evolved from this bacteria, on a rock?? hmmmm

On a rock rich with minerals and oxygen and water. The Miller-Urey experiments demonstrated that complex biological molecules could spontaneously form from simple chemicals present in primeval Earth. And just because you can't grasp how long of a process evolution is, doesn't mean it's impossible.

Yes, how abiogenesis could have occurred is a mystery. But the fact is, there are mountains of evidence supporting evolution, and it really overwhelms the small gaps in the theory that haven't been filled. Evolution is an observable process even today.

Now let's go over your theory: A cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a Magical Tree.

Just a little bit on the dodgy side, don't you think?

so after this... i dont really need proof of creation, it is just obviously more likely... and although i dont need more proof, i have it (bible, power of prayer...)

I still fail to see how the Bible is more proof of Christianity than the epic Oddyssey is proof of Greco-Roman mythology.

hebrews 11:1 'now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen'

hebrews 11:3 'by faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear'

but being a smart guy and obviously much better read than me u would have already known these, right?

Of course. But it doesn't make sense why God needs faith. Why can't God make himself apparent? It seems an awful lot like this is just an aspect of Christianity to explain away the fact that you haven't seen God.

well he did challange the pharisees, by telling the truth... except what he showed was different

i was just curious, probably shouldnt have carried it on... he did die for ur sins, and he wasnt deluded

i dont think they are insane... i think they were manipulated by the enemy... and they thought they were doing the work of God... what God would want so many people killed?

Did you seriously just say that? Like, seriously? Ever heard the story of Noah's Ark? The Bible says that God killed more people in one fell swoop than any human that has ever dwelled on Earth.

But my point is, you say that you know people that are "on fire" for Jesus, and that's proof that he's real. But those men on 9/11 sacrificed their lives for their beliefs, yet you don't accept them as proof. Why the double standard?

he didnt create sin

still old testament stuff... and where does it say that God condones slavery i have read a few times God commanding alaves to obey their masters but this doesnt mean he condones it... he is simply thinking of what will be best for his children who were slaves

As I said above, god explicitly allows the beating of slaves:

[BIBLE]Exodus 21:20[/BIBLE]

And if he wanted what was best for them, why didn't he tell the people he created that slavery is wrong??

this is simply what the enemy wants u to believe... try thinking of a time in ur life when u were really strong in ur faith... did the world not make sense to u then?

When I was "really strong in my faith" was when I wasn't thinking. When I started thinking was when the world stopped making sense if Christianity were true.

I just couldn't understand how the Bible can be true when evolution has so much evidence, and how a loving God would demand so much kiilling, and how an eternal Hell can possibly be justified, and how any prayer I have could be anything but trivial compared to the starving children that God ignores, and how the Bible's blatant misogyny could be right, and why it was necessary for God to tack his son to the cross in order to forgive us, and more that I can't think of now.

Under the assumption that God doesn't exist, there is a very simple answer to all of those doubts.

i know i am right about God and i am right, i think i am doing the right thing by replying to you, but i might not be

Double standard, hypocrisy, blah blah. I shouldn't need to say it again.

what fact could be applied to anyone who dies an atheist?

You say "God has a greater plan" but I'm sure there are many people who died atheists because your God was unwilling to reveal himself to them.

oh and yeah, i dont need luck, i have God by my side, with me every step of the way, who needs luck when they have that?

God dint create sin... i read something on here a while ago... i will post it in a min
yes he expected them to go for eternity without eating from it
doesnt mean he 'begged' them to sin

Yes it does. He put all the ingredients in place for Eve to commit the first sin. Saying God didn't create sin, is like saying I didn't make toast this morning because it was the toaster that did the toasting.

he's not gonna blame u for something that isnt ur fault... but free will is a gift, he isnt just gonna take it back

So you're saying I'm not going to Hell? Sweet.

theres a problem to ur fun experiment... i dont want to believe that a pink dragon makes the wind

Okay fine. Try to believe that the Holocaust never happened. Can you do that?

but it is still choosing

So I went through a lengthy explanation of my feelings, and basically your answer is "Nuh-uh!" Sorry, you're gonna need more than that.

nobody fully understands the workings of the planet and we wont have all the answers until we stand face to face with God
we have been having this conversation of proof for a while know and i think the problem is that we both have a different concept of proof, because i count the earth as proof, same as i count the bible and the power of prayer and the fact jesus died and rose again

But that is not scientific proof. The book Harry Potter is not proof that Harry Potter exists. Why the double standard? Muslims claim their prayers have been answered. Why the double standard? And your last "proof", well, that was just blatant circular reasoning.

and as i said before it is ur choice
he doesnt need an excuse to send as many people as possible to hell, he has a reason to send all of us there

God created us with a sinful nature. Thus, God created sin. It's not that difficult of a concept to grasp.

love

Why do you love him? Because he won't send you to Hell? So it really is out of fear?

 

[Theogonia]

I just couldn't understand how the Bible can be true when evolution has so much evidence

Easy, Genesis is not literal.

and how a loving God would demand so much kiilling

I honestly think that the OT was exaggerated to keep the Jews in line. Before the laws were written, they used to burn babies alive to Moloch.

and how an eternal Hell can possibly be justified, and how any prayer I have could be anything but trivial

Hell as Christians see it is a myth.

compared to the starving children that God ignores

Any suffering is for a reason. When we have an exceptionally potent spirit, God may crush the body to bring the spirit closer to him.

That is why all those prophets lived very simple lives. They rarely even had a place to sleep. It's because it kept them spiritual.

and how the Bible's blatant misogyny could be right

It's not, that was a different culture.

and why it was necessary for God to tack his son to the cross in order to forgive us, and more that I can't think of now.

God didn't "tack his son on the cross". I believe Jesus sacrificed himself as an example, and it had nothing to do with forgiveness.

You say "God has a greater plan" but I'm sure there are many people who died atheists because your God was unwilling to reveal himself to them.

Maybe God wanted those people to be atheists. Just because they were atheists doesn't mean they went to "hell".

Yes it does. He put all the ingredients in place for Eve to commit the first sin. Saying God didn't create sin, is like saying I didn't make toast this morning because it was the toaster that did the toasting.

Yes, I would say that God did create sin.

 

[quatona]

The Manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect.

The manufacturer not liable nor at fault for a defect in a prototype going into serial production nonetheless? You must be joking.

 

[MikeMcK]

Scripture does not say anything to the contrary.

Actually, it does. The Bible is very clear that those who are in sin do not have Christ.

I know because I have seen it. If you're too blind to see it I can't help you.

And how do you judge that what you've seen is true?

How do you know?

If you were, you wouldn't be contradicing God's word.

Really? I thought that the only factor in his "just" judging was if they were a Christian or not.

No. The Bible doesn't say this at all.

I have seen it in life.

Doesn't matter. Where is it taught in scripture?

I'm glad you agree.

You said that it has nothing to do with it. I said that it has a great deal to do with it. That isn't an agreement.

It is through his life that we can come to God, not his death.

Then why does the Bible say that we are saved through His death?

His death only represents being born again. Dying to our flesh and being reborn in God.

As usual, the Bible disagrees with you.

No. His death was an example, not a salvation device.

An example of what? Why does the Bible say that we are saved through His death?

I believe in God.[/quoet]

Simple. Jesus was a man who God chose to mainfest himself through. Jesus was not God. Jesus was a manifestation of God.

Then why does the Bible say that Jesus is God? Why did Jesus say that He is God?

The virgin birth, the idea that all non-Christians go to hell, the literal idea of hell

Why do you suppose that Jesus taught a real, literal Hell?

the idea that Jesus was God, the idea that Jesus is God,

Why does the Bible say that Jesus is God? Why does Jesus teach that He is God?

the idea that Jesus is physically up in heaven

The Bible tells us that Jesus was resurrected physically and ascended to Heaven, where He now sits at the right hand of the Father.

the idea of Satan

Satan, to borrow a line from the Louvin Brothers, is real. The Bible teaches this. Jesus teaches this.

Christianity at it's heart I don't reject. Christianity as it was supposed to be I don't reject.

And yet, you reject it's teachings.

Christianity as it is today, I do reject.

Christianity, as it's taught in scripture, you do reject.

 

[Theogonia]

Actually, it does. The Bible is very clear that those who are in sin do not have Christ.

Being in Christ is not a long term thing. It is always on and off.

The more righteous we become, the more often Christ will be in us, and the more Godly we will become.

And how do you judge that what you've seen is true?

So you don't think I know righteousness when I see it?

If you were, you wouldn't be contradicing God's word.

I'm not. My interpetation is different.

No. The Bible doesn't say this at all.

I know, but then why is it always taught?

Doesn't matter. Where is it taught in scripture?

Just because on the surface scripture presents an extremely simplistic picture doesn't mean that there isn't more to it.

You said that it has nothing to do with it. I said that it has a great deal to do with it. That isn't an agreement.

This was my comment:

"Being in Christ has to do with how you live. If you model your life after him or not."

Then why does the Bible say that we are saved through His death?

The bible says that we are saved through his blood. Blood represents life.

This is a metaphor that says that we are saved through Jesus' life.

As usual, the Bible disagrees with you.

As usual, you miss the deeper meaning.

Then why does the Bible say that Jesus is God? Why did Jesus say that He is God?

Jesus never taught that he was God. The bible only means Jesus being God in that he was Godlike, and not God himself.

Why do you suppose that Jesus taught a real, literal Hell?

You can interpet hell to be more than just literal.

The Bible tells us that Jesus was resurrected physically and ascended to Heaven, where He now sits at the right hand of the Father.

You seem to have no sense of what could be metaphorical meaning and what couldn't be.

His spirit ascended, not his physical body. God is eternal correct? Jesus body was finite correct? How could his body still be alive today if he was human?

And if he was some sort of fusion, he was NOT human.

Satan, to borrow a line from the Louvin Brothers, is real. The Bible teaches this. Jesus teaches this.

Satan does not exist by the Christian definition.

Christianity, as it's taught in scripture, you do reject.

Christianity, as it's taught by the church, I reject. The church's interpetation of scripture is largely wrong.

It's fine if you come to the truth in the simplistic teaching of the church, but there is more to it and you reject that belief.

 

[MikeMcK]

Let us see.

Your reason for rejecting my book would be on the grounds that I wasn't God.

Yet how would you know?

Because I can compare your words to God's word.

What if I was the true God, and the bible was written by a fraud?

The Bible wasn't written by one person.

 

[m9lc]

Easy, Genesis is not literal.

I just find it a tad fishy that anything in the Bible that's blatantly untrue becomes "metaphorical". If that's the case, how can I know if the whole story of Jesus isn't "just metaphorical"? How am I supposed to know if the whole concept of God isn't "just metaphorical"?

I honestly think that the OT was exaggerated to keep the Jews in line. Before the laws were written, they used to burn babies alive to Moloch.

By exaggerated, do you mean the writers exaggerated it? Or God overdid his punishments to the Jews? And again... if it didn't really happen, then how do we know which parts of the Bible are exaggerated and which aren't?

Hell as Christians see it is a myth.

Regardless, Christians get eternal life and I get destroyed. For what I happened to have believed. This still sounds pretty apalling.

Let's say that a man is mugging a woman at gunpoint. Then, another man passes by. The man pulls a knife and tries to stop the mugger, and manages to give the mugger a fatal wound, before being shot dead by the mugger. This man happened to be an atheist.

At the hospital a short time later, on his deathbed, the mugger repents and turns to Christ. He then dies, and as he takes the elevator up to Heaven, he waves down to the atheist man as he's dragged to his destruction.

Any suffering is for a reason. When we have an exceptionally potent spirit, God may crush the body to bring the spirit closer to him.

That is why all those prophets lived very simple lives. They rarely even had a place to sleep. It's because it kept them spiritual.

What could the death of an 8-year-old boy in an African tribe from starvation, possibly do?

It's not, that was a different culture.

I was under the impression that misogyny, slavery, and genocide were always wrong. You're telling me that this omnipotent God was afraid to tell the people he created that they were doing evil with those things, after he freed them from their own slavery?

God didn't "tack his son on the cross". I believe Jesus sacrificed himself as an example, and it had nothing to do with forgiveness.

An example? Of what?

Maybe God wanted those people to be atheists. Just because they were atheists doesn't mean they went to "hell".

So you believe that they're in Heaven? If not, why would God want them to be atheists?

Yes, I would say that God did create sin.

So... why should we be punished for it, if it's all traced back to him?

 

[Theogonia]

Because I can compare your words to God's word.

<staff edit>

My entire point, which I forget why I was making, was that how do you know that the bible is the real word of God, and that a book that I wrote that claimed to be God's word wasn't?

How would you know that my "holy book" wasn't the real true word of God, and that the bible was?