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The god who (once again) wasn't there: Virginia Tech

m9lc

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Just a quick example before I dive into this: If I make a fire in front of you to warm you and I and tell you not to touch it and you touch it, am I at fault? Is it my fault for putting it there or yours for touching it anyway when I told you not to? You might say "you shouldn't have made the fire in the first place". Well, there were good intentions for putting it there, in this case it was to warm both of us. This all works the same way when we talk about God and us.

No, you are not at fault. However, if you created my brain specifically so that I would touch the fire, yes, you are at fault.

God put the tree in the garden to signify true love. Love is true only when choice is involved (no argument there). The choice in this case was choosing God's will and love or the apple from the tree. The product of putting the tree there was an intent for good, (just like making the fire for warmth) making the relationship between God and man real and perfect. But when Eve and Adam ate the fruit, by their choice they messed up. It wasn't God's will and it certainly wasn't His fault.

However, people always have to blame somebody else. People blame Satan for the evil rather than our own fault. Thus, people equally blame God for having the power to destroy Satan but choosing not to. Firstly, I believe God is merciful as well as just, which is why He didn't strike Adam and Eve down the moment they ate the fruit and why He has let all of us live despite all we do wrong. But how dare we say that God is at fault for sin.

God is perfect, holy, and righteous. He hates sin more than anything. The ONLY thing He can't do is sin and He can't be around it, which is why He can't be around us in our sinfulness, hence He sent Jesus to pay our death penalty for our sin. He in his perfection wanted a relationship with us, and from the moment He made us He knew we were going to mess up. But God made us anyway. He will completely destroy sin in the future, though the time we will never know, however He wants us to come to Him and desire Him by choice presently. He doesn't want a robotic love that comes through perfection once the sin is gone. God gave us the free will for a reason, this reason. If you want to blame God for not making us robots then go ahead, but I will thank Him; not just for loving us enough to create us, but creating us with the ability and choice to love Him back.

I can't have a "choice" to love a God that I can't believe in. God takes away that choice when he refuses to give any evidence of himself.

livingforgod, I'm tired of arguing with you. Frankly, I can't put up with you any more.

"God is proof (in response to Islam)", "harry potter was written by a human, the bible is a firsthand account of what God has and will do" - Do you really not see the blatant circular logic??

Yes, you are a hypocrite, because you take your Bible and your faith as proof, but not the Qur'an and the faith of Muslims. You and they are all total, 100% hypocrites.

"no i can prove that i have control over what i believe: my choice to believe in God; I am not going to lie to myself i believe in the truth" - Are you kidding me?? You basically said "I can have control over what I believe, but I can't have control over what I believe".

You're being ridiculous. Think!
 
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Sapphos

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The free-will allowed by god.
But we live in a country were we have free will, yet we have laws and punihments. We also have probition on certainitems (hand guns). So why does God not act as a government?
If the police knew someone was going to commit an act of terrorism, the would stop it. Yet God does not. How is this fair or loving?
 
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loudatheist101

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But we live in a country were we have free will, yet we have laws and punihments. We also have probition on certainitems (hand guns). So why does God not act as a government?
If the police knew someone was going to commit an act of terrorism, the would stop it. Yet God does not. How is this fair or loving?
It is not, however the main excuse Theists have is "free will". Yet, the police don't give you free will to go out and kill who you want. :p
 
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loudatheist101

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Just because God doesn't interfere doesn't mean he isn't loving or just.

God lets life teach us our lessons. He doesn't interfere with the natural cycle of things.
Why?
 
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Theogonia

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Why should he hold our hands through every step of life? I look on life as a testing ground. Why should I cry to God to baby walk me through it? Why should I expect him to? How can I hope to become a better person if I don't have trials in my life to shape me into one?
 
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quatona

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Why should he hold our hands through every step of life? I look on life as a testing ground.
What is being tested? What is the purpose of this test? What is the "real thing" that this existence of pain vs. joy is the test run for? What will happens if you fail the test?

Why should I cry to God to baby walk me through it? Why should I expect him to? How can I hope to become a better person if I don't have trials in my life to shape me into one?
My question is rather: Why would a god create you in a way that requires you to become a better person than he created you as? Why didn´t he simply do it right? What is it with an omnipotent creatorgod who creates his creatures in a way that requires him to send them through a test routine for quality control?
 
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Theogonia

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Well, lets say God created us to love him. If we were already perfect, we wouldn't be able to truly love him, because with our perfection would always come love, simply because we wouldn't be able to not love. (Theoretically)

I think God wants to know that we not only love him, but that we have fought to love him, fought against the strong tendency not to.

:\
 
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livingforGod135

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ok here goes *deep breaths*

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." John 14:15

this means exactly what it says, do u agree? it is not saying 'if u obey me u love me'


"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me." John 14:21

hmmmm.... well u have to know his commands first... not just be doing them because it is the right thing to do in todays society

"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching… He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." John 14:23-24

this one is once again saying if u love him u will obey him... not the other way around... and thus those who dont love him dont obey him because one of the things u r supposed to do is love him
"If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love." John 15:10

Notice the last part supports what I've said about Jesus coming to be as God through obediance. Vaguely I'll admit.

yes very vaguely indeed... of coures Jesus was obedient to his dad

and that one is saying Jesus loves u if u obey him (and loving him is one of the things u have 2 do)
"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did." 1 John 2:3-6

yes... u have to obey God but u also have to love him too... and walking as Jesus did would be an act of love for him

Jesus said the two most important commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

yes
When that person helps that other person for the right reasons, they are truly loving their neighbor

yes

and are also loving God because they are obeying what Jesus taught.

but they cant love someone whom they refuse to recognise

All he taught was straight from God, so they are obeying the very words of God.

yes

Well operating on the idea that nothing good can come of the flesh, and that only good can come of God, of the spirit, any good we do is always from the spirit of God within us.

i have done good things (a few) and although it was what God wanted me to do it was still my choice to obey him

Because maybe witchcraft isn't evil or maybe *gasp* the spirit of God has reached out to that person through that particular religion.

fine. it was an example. why doesnt that person feel the spirit of God in them and do the right thing when they walk round the corner and beat up some guy leaving him in need of someone to take him to hospital?

and the spirit of God can only come into and be active in your life if u let it and ask him... thru christianity... thru Jesus

You said Jesus was a normal human. Normal humans aren't born that way.

haha whoops my bad. when i said Jesus was a normal human I was being sarcastic

Fine I can see that I can't break through here. Here is another one of the core beliefs of Christianity that I reject.

ah ha one of the core beliefs that u reject is that Jesus died on the cross 4 ur sins? but that is also written in the bible

and no u will not 'get thru here'

You stated as a fact that it is false. The burden is on you to prove it.

memory sucks... what did i say was false?

and if we are going to go on those terms u suddenly have alot to prove


thank u :)

In your question you asked "is this person saved or not", I'm saying I have no idea and don't want to judge. But I've thought about it and the answer is pretty easy, if that person, no matter how bad a life he has lived, truly repents, then I believe he will be saved.

this is what i also believe but everything u have said previous is that righteousness outweighs sin... so by what u have said this person should have to go to hell

In your question you asked why wouldn't we be able to remember our past lives.

Say you have a test in school. If the teacher gives you the answers before you take the test, it's not really testing you is it?

If we remembered our past lives, we would know the answers to all the situations we had been in, and therefore breeze through them.

We wouldn't be truly tested then would we?

yes i see ur point now... and i understand what u mean... but i cant see how this would be hell for us not kowing what we are missing out on as it were and not knowing that we had to do things 'better'

Here are some verses:

Psalms 18:15 "Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O LORD, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils."


Job 34:14 "If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;"

Job 34:15 "All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."


Job 27:3 "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils"


John 3:8 "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Vague but the idea is there.

vague?? u cant really get any vaguer... all these verses prove to me is that God created the earth and his spirit is in PEOPLE
You may be right, because to say he was "one complete" being would be to imply he has an end, a completeness. Good call. :)

thank you :)

I think it makes no sense. Since what I believe is based on what is logical, then I reject that idea.

Think about it, how does Jesus eat? How does he sleep? What does he do besides float in space for an endless amount of time?

yeah... see there is a problem here... we cannot understand everything... so some things are bound not to make any sense to us

u reject that God can do anything?

if u r saying in a human state in heaven all Jesus can do is float around... then how is it going to be different for spirits?

prove that there is no food in heaven

I guess I can't break through here either.

if revelation is a complete and utter metaphor the whole way thru it still gets one point across and that is Jesus is returning

Revelation was a vision given to John. Visions usually aren't counted as firsthand accounts of the future.

yes but it was a vision given to him by God... so then it can suddenly be counted as much more reliable

Yes and I have no clue how anyone could believe it was anything other than metaphors and symbolic writings.

so what u mean is u dont understand it??

And what if it is? What if the entire bible is just a big example, using parables? Does that matter? Does that mean there's no God? No, because what you do is take knowledge of how to live righteously from that book, and you live the knowledge. The knowledge is not in your head, but in your heart and soul.

yes u have a point... but the bible has in it truths of what has and will happen as well as how to live ur life

And when you die you know that you've made a difference in the world because of the way you've lived, however small. That is the meaning of life.

making a difference is the meaning of life? well i have never even thought about that before

Quote:
Lucifer is a Latin word meaning "light-bearer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), a Roman astrological term for the "Morning Star", the planet Venus. The word Lucifer was the direct translation of the Septuagint Greek heosphoros, ("dawn-bearer"); (cf. Greek phosphoros, "light-bearer") and the Hebrew Helel, ("Bright one") used by Jerome in the Vulgate, having mythologically the same meaning as Prometheus who brought fire to humanity. In that passage, Isaiah 14:12, it referred to one of the popular honorific titles of a Babylonian king; however, later interpretations of the text, and the influence of embellishments in works such as Dante's The Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost, led to the common idea in Christian mythology and folklore that Lucifer was a poetic appellation of Satan.

Lucifer is a poetic name for the "morning star", a close translation of the Greek eosphoros, the "dawn-bringer" (son of Eos, "dawn"), which appears in the Odyssey and in Hesiod's Theogony.

A classic Roman use of "Lucifer" appears in Virgil's Georgics (III, 324-5):
Luciferi primo cum sidere frigida rura
carpamus, dum mane novum, dum gramina canent"
"Let us hasten, when first the Morning Star appears,
To the cool pastures, while the day is new, while the grass is dewy"
This gives you an idea of where Lucifer originated from. A friend of mine had a long write up about the origin of the story of Lucifer, I'll post it when I can get it.

what on earth does all that have to do with the 'story of satan' being in the bible?

Most of the things we've been argueing about are doctrinal Christian beliefs. That is, if you don't believe one certain way, you are not a Christian and are not saved.

well for some things it is true

Laura
 
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quatona

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Well, lets say God created us to love him. If we were already perfect, we wouldn't be able to truly love him, because with our perfection would always come love, simply because we wouldn't be able to not love. (Theoretically)
Leaving aside for a moment the question why god is so concerned with being loved by persons who (on top, aren´t there but who he had to create for this purpose), and also leaving aside the question what the problem would be with love that is not "true" but manifests in the same behaviour as "true" love, also leaving aside the question why "true" love would be missed when there is no evil to counter with it - leaving all that aside, I am wondering about your god concept.
You say being perfect is irreconcilable with loving "truly". What does that tell me about your god and his love?

I think God wants to know that we not only love him, but that we have fought to love him, fought against the strong tendency not to.
That sounds like a very small anthropomorphic god to me. He created us with a strong tendency not to love him just to enjoy seeing us fighting against it?
I mean, each to their own and if that is the sort of thing god is into I can´t help it anywaysw , but that sure sounds like creating problems so that there are problems to solve. Creating problems for others that they have to solve, on top, for his own satisfaction.
 
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Theogonia

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That sounds like a very small anthropomorphic god to me. He created us with a strong tendency not to love him just to enjoy seeing us fighting against it?
I mean, each to their own and if that is the sort of thing god is into I can´t help it anywaysw , but that sure sounds like creating problems so that there are problems to solve. Creating problems for others that they have to solve, on top, for his own satisfaction.

I realize it sounds really egotistic and selfish of God. :\

Hmmm, what if God needs us to exist? What if the energy of our love is what sustains him?

Maybe God was in fact created and the energy of our love created him.
 
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Theogonia

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this means exactly what it says, do u agree? it is not saying 'if u obey me u love me'

You're not seeing it. If you love me you'll obey what I command. Therefore if I obey God I must love him because I'm obeying him. If I didn't love God I wouldn't be obeying him.

hmmmm.... well u have to know his commands first... not just be doing them because it is the right thing to do in todays society

You're still obeying the commands. It's not by accident if you know what's right and wrong. The law is written on all of our hearts.

this one is once again saying if u love him u will obey him... not the other way around... and thus those who dont love him dont obey him because one of the things u r supposed to do is love him

Love is not knowledge, love for God is obediance to God.

and walking as Jesus did would be an act of love for him

I know pagans who walk as Jesus did.

but they cant love someone whom they refuse to recognise

Love is actions, not words or knowledge.

i have done good things (a few) and although it was what God wanted me to do it was still my choice to obey him

It was the spirit working in you.

why doesnt that person feel the spirit of God in them and do the right thing when they walk round the corner and beat up some guy leaving him in need of someone to take him to hospital?

Because the spirit is intermittent. Those who are aware of it's existance will be more in tune with it, but it is still on and off. Every act of good you do is God's spirit working in you.

and the spirit of God can only come into and be active in your life if u let it and ask him... thru christianity... thru Jesus

WRONG. The spirit is in EVERYONE. I know people that are not christian that have the spirit of God strong in them. How do I know? Because of their fruit, the way they live.

haha whoops my bad. when i said Jesus was a normal human I was being sarcastic

Well you shouldn't be sarcastic because there is absolutely no evidence to support the virgin birth, and there is strong evidence that the account of it in the bible was added by the catholic church after Jesus died.

ah ha one of the core beliefs that u reject is that Jesus died on the cross 4 ur sins? but that is also written in the bible

Can you explain to me in logical terms why Jesus would need to die so we can be saved? Or died for our sins? It is nonsense.

memory sucks... what did i say was false?

Reincarnation.

this is what i also believe but everything u have said previous is that righteousness outweighs sin... so by what u have said this person should have to go to hell

No, I said that I believe to be saved our righteousness has to outweigh our sin. But God is going to factor in the individual's level of understanding and their state of mind when they do die.

yes i see ur point now... and i understand what u mean... but i cant see how this would be hell for us not kowing what we are missing out on as it were and not knowing that we had to do things 'better'

Just because it's not torture for our bodies doesn't mean it isn't for our spirits.

vague?? u cant really get any vaguer... all these verses prove to me is that God created the earth and his spirit is in PEOPLE

His spirit is in everything.

Think of one of the cells on your body. It is part of you and you of it, but you are beyond. The cell is the universe and you are God.

yeah... see there is a problem here... we cannot understand everything... so some things are bound not to make any sense to us

The only things that don't make sense to me are things that don't have any logic.

u reject that God can do anything?

God can do anything within the laws of this world. Likewise, he can do anything within the laws of other worlds and universes, which might have laws that would break the laws of this world.

if u r saying in a human state in heaven all Jesus can do is float around... then how is it going to be different for spirits?

Because it's a completely different realm. It's probably in a completely different plane of existance. It could be a parallel world to this one, but in a completely different dimension.

if revelation is a complete and utter metaphor the whole way thru it still gets one point across and that is Jesus is returning

That is not the point of revelation.

yes but it was a vision given to him by God... so then it can suddenly be counted as much more reliable

It has about as much literal significance as one of the parables Jesus told. That's basically what revelation is.

so what u mean is u dont understand it??

What I mean is it is too fantastical to be literal.

making a difference is the meaning of life? well i have never even thought about that before

I personally believe so.

what on earth does all that have to do with the 'story of satan' being in the bible?

Alright here's some of a write up a friend of mine did.

This is probably one of the biggest myths about the alleged being "Satan".
Lucifer is a fictional character created by English poet John Milton for an epic poem entitled "Paradise Lost" (which is an excellent poem), in which he describes the fall of man and the fall of Lucifer. Lucifer is not even a real Latin word, but a name he made up for the poem, combining words. Its approximate translation from latin would be "Light-Bringer". If one believes there really is an Archangel named "Lucifer", one is horribly wrong for this fact alone. Should a real "Lucifer" have any name, it would be Hebrew.
This is partially incorrect. While the popularization of this story and several facets of it DID come from the poem, the name Lucifer did not.

In addition, the whole "cast from heaven" concept and Lucifer tempting man stems from this poem. In genesis, Adam and Eve are
tempted by a SNAKE, and while some say that this was Satan in the form of an animal, the syntax of the text might prove otherwise:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" Genesis 3:1

If the Serpent was really Satan, it would not say that the creature was "more crafty than any of the wild animals", because it would not BE a wild animal, it would be "Satan", and though it would not say "Satan", it would likely say that the serpent talking to Eve was not actually an animal. Now there is also debate that the "serpent" could refer to a Seraphim (seraph = fiery serpent, or something to that extent :p), though with that particular usage, it seems more that they are actually talking about an animal than any sort of divine being. (I've also heard that perhaps it was a "dragon", but that's another debate) There is no further evidence in the text to indicate that the serpent is anything BUT a normal snake, aside from the fact it talks, but who's to say talking animals weren't a common occurance in "Eden", or wait... the entire story is symbolic and not actually real events.

To go beyond this, so that no one attempts to bring this up in future posts, some believe that there is evidence in the bible
to support the details of Milton's poem.
a. Ezekiel 28:13-19
b. Isaiah 14:12
These excerpts are used out of context. Read the entire section (Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14) and you will learn that in fact
the text has NOTHING to do with Satan, but instead are prophecies against the King of Tyre (Ez 28) and the King of Babylon (Is 14).

Now notice that in a King James Isaiah 14:12, the name of Lucifer is listed. This is only true in KJV. ONLY KJV. This is a
strange coincidence, and with a few quick Google searches to check dates...
Paradise Lost first published: 1667
KJV first published: 1611
KJV revised: 1769
All KJV bibles are based off the revised text. By 1769 in England, where BOTH works were published, its entirely likely "Lucifer" just found its way into the text. It was not there initially, COULD not be there initially, KJV would not be the
only edition containing the "error".

I have discovered the reason for this error, and it coincides with the origins of the "name" Lucifer!

In the Tanakh--the Jewish translation of scripture direct from Hebrew--, Isaiah 14:12 reads:
"... O Shining One, son of Dawn!..."
In the New International Version, it reads:
"... O morning star, Son of Dawn!..."
and in the King James, it reads:
"... O Lucifer, son of the morning!..."

Lucifer, in the Latin Vulgate text, is another name for the "morning star" or "light bringer (in regards to a STAR bringing the first light of morning)"; a person versed in astrology would know the "morning star" to be none other than the planet Venus! And so "Lucifer" WAS the morning star -- Venus! Originally this literal, astrological definition was the connotation
of the "name".

How did a synonym for the morning star, Venus, become an archangel? This is where the history becomes hazy, and I have more
research to do. What I have thus far is that the original King James was published with the Apocrypha--a series of books that
are not 'scripture', but more like folk stories. Apparently there is also the Pseudepigrapha, containing similar stories... but I have yet to read either of these books. I intend on at least skimming them soon, and will continue to update with my findings.

From what I have gathered, by Milton's time, the personification of Lucifer was at least partially complete, and he merely penned, exaggerated, and popularized the legend; using stories from the Apocrypha as his base!

(And notice that I am willing to admit my error, unlike the Christians!)

Finally, "hell".
"Lucifer" was only placed in "hell" because of literature. Dante placed him in Hell as well as Milton, and for some reason, people took the words of these two poets as another Gospel. Now the common view of hell is a Dantean 9-layered pit, full of Demons and Tortures for sinners, depending on their sin of choice. Unfortunately for those believers, this was created as a
work of fiction -- political satire, entertainment, and so on. It was never meant as Gospel, nor was Milton's poem, yet
people use these works of LITERATURE and folk tales as truth. It'd be like me using A Tale of Two Cities as a factual source
on a scholarly paper about the French Revolution.
 
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elman

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I realize it sounds really egotistic and selfish of God. :\

Hmmm, what if God needs us to exist? What if the energy of our love is what sustains him?

Maybe God was in fact created and the energy of our love created him.

So now we are the Creator and God is the creation. Atheist have already thought of that possibility.
 
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mophed20

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seems to me God always acts lovingly. but you have to be a forward thinker, and understand pain doesn't always mean bad, sometimes pain is there to teach us. and God uses pain (in His MERCY!!) to teach us to do good, that way we don't kill ourselves. but most of the time it never works like that, cause we are fallen beings.
 
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Morcova

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seems to me God always acts lovingly. but you have to be a forward thinker, and understand pain doesn't always mean bad, sometimes pain is there to teach us. and God uses pain (in His MERCY!!) to teach us to do good, that way we don't kill ourselves. but most of the time it never works like that, cause we are fallen beings.

Sounds like defense of an abusive father to me.

Sure Mr. Johnson broke Timmy's arm but he was trying to teach him!
 
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