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Virginia Tech and Calvinism

bradfordl

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Again, your logic is faulty. God does not control people, He leaves us to make choices, even when those choices have negative impacts on those around them. For the believer, God will work the evil for their good. For the unbeliever there is no such promise. God letting us live out our free will does not make God malevolent, it makes Him God.
So you're saying God is incapable of preventing the shootings? If He is capable, and does not, and there is no good purpose in them, then you make Him a monster. If He is not capable, then who set such a limitation on Him?
Then you don't understand God's power. Gods power is absolute and without the requirement to ordain everything to be so. Is God so weak that the only way He can make His will come to be is to unchangeable ordain everything? If so, then God unchangeably ordained the shootings. What ever the reason, God ordained that they would happen just as they happened or the Westminster is false.
Your argument is faulty on it's face, and you know it. You imply the weakness, a god incapable of ordaining all things, or a god who monstrously allows pointless evil. The scriptures show us that God is neither of these things.

But as usual I expect you to stuff those fingers back in your ears and yell "I can't HEAR you!".
 
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Boxmaker

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So you're saying God is incapable of preventing the shootings? If He is capable, and does not, and there is no good purpose in them, then you make Him a monster. If He is not capable, then who set such a limitation on Him?
God did. God sets His own limits. God is capable of anything. That includes being capable of allowing things to happen that are evil. The alternative is Calvinism

bradfordl said:
Your argument is faulty on it's face, and you know it. You imply the weakness, a god incapable of ordaining all things, or a god who monstrously allows pointless evil. The scriptures show us that God is neither of these things.
Thus we arrive at the alternative. You say a God who allows the shootings is a monster. What is a God who ordained the shootings? How is a God who ordains the murder of 32 people, the wounding of more and all the broken lives of the friends and familly for no apparent reason any less monsterous? Can you answer that honestly?

I'll offer this for you to ponder before you reply. In the Old Testament, every time God destroyed some city, He always had a profit to inform the people of His intentions. He never did anything without making sure His people knew why. As one of the elect, you are one of His chosen people. So tell me, what did God reveal to His people about these shootings?

bradfordl said:
But as usual I expect you to stuff those fingers back in your ears and yell "I can't HEAR you!".
I hear you load and clear my friend. Do you hear me?
 
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bradfordl

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God did. God sets His own limits. God is capable of anything. That includes being capable of allowing things to happen that are evil. The alternative is Calvinism
So He could have prevented it, but chose not to. Is that your position?
Thus we arrive at the alternative. You say a God who allows the shootings is a monster. What is a God who ordained the shootings? How is a God who ordains the murder of 32 people, the wounding of more and all the broken lives of the friends and familly for no apparent reason any less monsterous? Can you answer that honestly?
Absolutely I can. The God who ordained it did not do it for no apparent reason! He plainly declares that: The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil (Pro 16:4), And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Rom. 8:28).
I'll offer this for you to ponder before you reply. In the Old Testament, every time God destroyed some city, He always had a profit to inform the people of His intentions. He never did anything without making sure His people knew why.
Firstly, VA Tech was not the destruction of a city. And if what you mean is that He did so before, during or immediately after the event, what Joseph's brothers did was not shown to be of any good until many years later. Pharoah was allowed to slaughter many Hebrew male children, but Moses was spared. Was that by God's intervention or not? If it was, why did He not intervene for all the others? And what explanation does He give for that? None to you, but He declares that he has made all things for Himself, so we have to accept that there was good purpose in it, and accept that we aren't so special that He has to explain Himself to us.
As one of the elect, you are one of His chosen people. So tell me, what did God reveal to His people about these shootings?
You presume much about yourself, as though God owes an explanation of His actions to you. But Paul says "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1Cor 13:12), and that is according to God's will. If He wanted you to see clearly, He would make it so, but He does not. He says, "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deut 29:29)

So a couple of questions:

1. Could God have prevented the shootings but chose not to?

2. Where do you get the idea that He must explain His reasons for anything to you?
 
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Boxmaker

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Firstly, VA Tech was not the destruction of a city. And if what you mean is that He did so before, during or immediately after the event, what Joseph's brothers did was not shown to be of any good until many years later.
How many people were killed in order that Joseph could be sold into slavery?
bradfordl said:
Pharoah was allowed to slaughter many Hebrew male children, but Moses was spared. Was that by God's intervention or not? If it was, why did He not intervene for all the others?
Excelant point! God interveaned to save Moses for His purposes.
bradfordl said:
And what explanation does He give for that? None to you, but He declares that he has made all things for Himself, so we have to accept that there was good purpose in it, and accept that we aren't so special that He has to explain Himself to us.
You presume much about yourself, as though God owes an explanation of His actions to you. But Paul says "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1Cor 13:12), and that is according to God's will. If He wanted you to see clearly, He would make it so, but He does not. He says, "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deut 29:29)

So a couple of questions:

1. Could God have prevented the shootings but chose not to?
Yes.

bradfordl said:
2. Where do you get the idea that He must explain His reasons for anything to you?
The Old Testament. He does not owe me an explination, but He usually provides one.
 
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GodsElect

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The Old Testament. He does not owe me an explination, but He usually provides one.

Yes, He does provide all answers. And the bible says that He ordains ALL things that have and ever shall come to pass.

[FONT=&quot]As a believer in Calvinism, how do you explain the killer at Virginia Tech? [/FONT]

As a believer in THE WORD OF GOD, THE SOVEREIGN GOD OF ALL THE HEAVENS AND EARTH, THE PERFECT SACRIFICE FOR OUR WRETCHEDNESS JESUS CHRIST, THE CREATOR OF AND SUSTAINER OF ALL LIFE ON EARTH, THE ONE AND ONLY TRIUNE ALMIGHTY GOD, He gives us ALL the answers we need from HIS WORD that He has given to His people so we may find the answers to why senseless acts, disasters and destruction happen. And the only explaination YOU, speck of dust before an ALMIGHTY GOD, NEEDS is this...

In the 45th chapter of Isaiah...



.....I am the LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity;

I, the LORD, do all these things.’



And that's all the answer YOU NEED Boxmaker!
 
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bradfordl

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Excelant point! God interveaned to save Moses for His purposes.
You did not answer the question. Why did God not intervene on behalf of the rest of the male children?
1. Could God have prevented the shootings but chose not to?
Yes.
Then if it is as you say, that there is nothing in the shootings that glorifies God or serves some other good purpose, you make God out to be a monster, not preventing "senseless" slaughter when He was able to do so. The same would be true of you if you knew what was about to happen, and had the ability to prevent it but did not.
2. Where do you get the idea that He must explain His reasons for anything to you?
The Old Testament. He does not owe me an explination, but He usually provides one.
He sometimes provided a reason for His actions, and often did not. The times that He did were evidently meant for His glory then, before those people. Not all events in His plan are meant for His glory at the time of their occurence, or for those presently witnessing them, but one thing is certain, all things will and do redound to His glory.

Your point was that God did not ordain these killings because He had not made known to His people the good reason for them. You base that on the idea that He "usually" did something like that in the Old Testament when He ordained destruction? Your premise is unsound.

Meager basis upon which to deny the absolute sovereignty of God, don't you think? Box, you don't seem to see your arrogance. You presume to think that since you can't understand the why of many things it must be that those things are not ordained by God, as though your ability to comprehend is the standard by which God must operate. To mollify your own qualms you invent a God who plays peek-a-boo with Himself to have "plausible deniability". He could ordain all things, but does not because He doesn't need to? And because of that indifference senseless acts of evil occur? You are guilty of the same incoherence as Calvinists who claim God "passes over" the reprobate, but actively intervenes on behalf of the regenerate. Both of you can't comprehend how it is that God can ordain evil and hold the perpetrators of that evil responsible while not bearing responsibility Himself. So both of you construct an incoherent paradigm to explain it that in one way or another mitigates against God's omnipotence.

You make God a little less and yourself a little more than reality to accomodate your conceptual limitations, when instead you should let God be GOD and strive to comprehend that within those limitations. Accept your own limits instead of placing them on God.
 
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Boxmaker

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You did not answer the question. Why did God not intervene on behalf of the rest of the male children?
I don't know. I honestly do not know.
bradfordl said:
Then if it is as you say, that there is nothing in the shootings that glorifies God or serves some other good purpose, you make God out to be a monster, not preventing "senseless" slaughter when He was able to do so. The same would be true of you if you knew what was about to happen, and had the ability to prevent it but did not.
Which is what you believe. According to the Westminster, God ordained the shootings would happen. God not only knew what was about to happen, He made sure it did happen.

bradfordl said:
He sometimes provided a reason for His actions, and often did not. The times that He did were evidently meant for His glory then, before those people. Not all events in His plan are meant for His glory at the time of their occurence, or for those presently witnessing them, but one thing is certain, all things will and do redound to His glory.

Your point was that God did not ordain these killings because He had not made known to His people the good reason for them. You base that on the idea that He "usually" did something like that in the Old Testament when He ordained destruction? Your premise is unsound.

Meager basis upon which to deny the absolute sovereignty of God, don't you think? Box, you don't seem to see your arrogance. You presume to think that since you can't understand the why of many things it must be that those things are not ordained by God, as though your ability to comprehend is the standard by which God must operate. To mollify your own qualms you invent a God who plays peek-a-boo with Himself to have "plausible deniability". He could ordain all things, but does not because He doesn't need to? And because of that indifference senseless acts of evil occur? You are guilty of the same incoherence as Calvinists who claim God "passes over" the reprobate, but actively intervenes on behalf of the regenerate. Both of you can't comprehend how it is that God can ordain evil and hold the perpetrators of that evil responsible while not bearing responsibility Himself. So both of you construct an incoherent paradigm to explain it that in one way or another mitigates against God's omnipotence.

You make God a little less and yourself a little more than reality to accomodate your conceptual limitations, when instead you should let God be GOD and strive to comprehend that within those limitations. Accept your own limits instead of placing them on God.
I have never denied the absolute sovergienty of God. I deny the Calvinistic definition of God's sovergienty.

No, I cannot understand how somebody who would unchangeably ordain your every thought and action is not responsible for those thoughts and actions. You have no choice. Your every thought and action has been planned since before the world was created.

You keep saying that God plans everything and then lets peoples own reprobate mind run free. Double Speak. Pick one and stick to it.

You assume much when you say I make God a little less and me a little more. I do no such thing. God is my savior and only God. With out God's intervention in my life, I would be lost. Note that I said intervention, not predestination. There is a difference. Life happens. Good and bad, life happens. When you are the middle of life, where do you turn for meaning? I turn to God. Why? Because God loved me first and, by His intervention, I responded to that love by loving Him in returm. Now life has meaning.
 
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bradfordl

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Originally Posted by bradfordl
Then if it is as you say, that there is nothing in the shootings that glorifies God or serves some other good purpose, you make God out to be a monster, not preventing "senseless" slaughter when He was able to do so. The same would be true of you if you knew what was about to happen, and had the ability to prevent it but did not.
Which is what you believe. According to the Westminster, God ordained the shootings would happen. God not only knew what was about to happen, He made sure it did happen.
No, that is not what I believe. I believe that He ordained it, as He does all things, and that He did so for good and righteous purposes. The fact that you believe there was no good purpose in the shootings forces you to make God out to be a monster, or not fully sovereign. But you think there is no purpose in it because you assume He must tell you what that purpose is, and you disbelieve the Word:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
I believe God has ordained all things completely, and for the foremost purpose of glorifying Himself, so all things have an ultimate good purpose, whether I understand that purpose or not.
I have never denied the absolute sovergienty of God. I deny the Calvinistic definition of God's sovergienty.
You deny the biblical definition of God's sovereignty.
No, I cannot understand how somebody who would unchangeably ordain your every thought and action is not responsible for those thoughts and actions. You have no choice. Your every thought and action has been planned since before the world was created.
That you can't understand it does not make it any less true. That you can't understand it has more to do with the faulty presuppositions with which you approach scripture than anything else. Your every thought and action has been planned since before the world was created, and you have a choice, and you are responsible. It is only difficult for you because you can't comprehend that God's abilities to do whatever pleases Him go far beyond your own limitations.
You keep saying that God plans everything and then lets peoples own reprobate mind run free. Double Speak. Pick one and stick to it.
Nay, Box! I have never said that here. I am one of those nasty, curmudgeonly double predestinarians that holds to equal ultimacy. Don't try to defend your own inconsistent position by inferring a different inconsistency upon me that I do not hold.
You assume much when you say I make God a little less and me a little more. I do no such thing. God is my savior and only God. With out God's intervention in my life, I would be lost. Note that I said intervention, not predestination. There is a difference. Life happens. Good and bad, life happens. When you are the middle of life, where do you turn for meaning? I turn to God. Why? Because God loved me first and, by His intervention, I responded to that love by loving Him in returm. Now life has meaning.
Pretty words, Box. But since I know that you believe you had the ability to accept or refuse this "intervention", that makes you the deciding factor, and thus you are your own saviour, and God your celestial assistant. That is not the salvation of scripture.

Think about it.
 
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GodsElect

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Which is what you believe. According to the Westminster, God ordained the shootings would happen. God not only knew what was about to happen, He made sure it did happen.

Box, I don't know what you do not understand about that passage in Isaiah that I posted. It's pretty plain to see that yes, He DID make sure that it happened. As He does in ALL OF HIS CREATION. For reasons HE DOESN'T HAVE TO REVEAL TO YOU OR MYSELF! This is the God that is described in the Bible! I am sorry that you don't see it the way God's word describes to be so. Maybe you can't see it? Maybe you're still blind to the truth? Perhaps you will never be given the understanding? It's NOT OUR jobs to make you understand! You have been pretty THICK! As we all once were!


I have never denied the absolute sovergienty of God. I deny the Calvinistic definition of God's sovergienty.
Agreed with Bradford, Then you dont agree with the absolute sovereignty of God as taught in the BIBLE! It is very clear to see that.

No, I cannot understand how somebody who would unchangeably ordain your every thought and action is not responsible for those thoughts and actions. You have no choice. Your every thought and action has been planned since before the world was created.
Box, promise you will listen to this and tell me what you think? And if you don't understand it, listen to it again. It will answer your question.


http://www.knowyourbiblerecordings.org/sermons/TWB11.mp3
 
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heymikey80

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That conclusion is not supported by your statement. God does not need to control peoples actions in order to fulfill any promise He makes. God says what He will do and He does it. Period.
It is. Who said anything about actual control? well, you did. But I said something about God's capacity.

And the moment capacity is acceded, then so is intent. For if God can control completely, then He is exercising His intent regardless of how much control He exerts to accomplish His ends. Added control? It must be His intent. Less control? It must be His intent. If He intends it and brings it about by His level of control, then no matter what breadth of control He exerts, He has foreordained the result.

Foreordination is about intent, not about control. "ordain" == "order" or "arrange for". "fore" == prior in time.

Remember why? I know this is an odd conclusion if you're not riveted on the preconditions. But God made everything that does cause results. He's made everything, infinitely aware of every attribute. Of course His purposes will be carried out through His power -- He's the source of all power than any exercises.
Again, your logic is faulty. God does not control people, He leaves us to make choices, even when those choices have negative impacts on those around them. For the believer, God will work the evil for their good. For the unbeliever there is no such promise. God letting us live out our free will does not make God malevolent, it makes Him God.
Why would God allow men to fall in this creation, yet prevent them in the next?
Then you don't understand God's power. Gods power is absolute and without the requirement to ordain everything to be so. Is God so weak that the only way He can make His will come to be is to unchangeable ordain everything? If so, then God unchangeably ordained the shootings. What ever the reason, God ordained that they would happen just as they happened or the Westminster is false.
Listen to what you're saying. "Is God so weak that the only way He can make His will come to be is to unchangeable ordain everything?" That is, Can God only make His will occur by intending it to occur? Ignoring for the moment your rhetorical introduction of "make" (for that would argue for fatalism, which we both reject), I think you must be asking, "He can't unintentionally intend it to occur?" Uhm -- Exactly! He must intend what He intends!

Was that a trick question? Beyond of course the rhetorical "make" :sorry:
 
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orthedoxy

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Cavinism doesn't make sense
If God ordained the shooting then he caused it to happen. How can you say the man that did the shooting is evil when he was ordained to kill?
How can you say God is loving and the shooter is not?
How do you know God is loving?is it because what he has done?
 
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UMP

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How can you say the man that did the shooting is evil when he was ordained to kill?

Was the crucifiction of Jesus Christ ordained?
Yes.
Were the people who crucified Him evil, doing evil acts?
Yes.
How do I know this? :

Acts 2:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
 
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Murdock

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[FONT=&quot]As a believer in Calvinism, how do you explain the killer at Virginia Tech? Was it predestined or was it a sinner from whom God removed His favor and let the sinners natural nature dictate the resulting actions?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I ask because I have been reading "Chosen by God," by R.C. Sproul and the question of how God hardens a persons heart came up. Sprouls explanation does not exactly square with what the Westminster Confession of Faith.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I would like to know how you deal with something like Virginia tech.[/FONT]

Sorry, but God wasn't in the dark about the person who killed all those people. "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet I tell you not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my Father." ;)
 
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Beoga

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Cavinism doesn't make sense
If God ordained the shooting then he caused it to happen. How can you say the man that did the shooting is evil when he was ordained to kill?
How can you say God is loving and the shooter is not?
How do you know God is loving?is it because what he has done?

God is the sole ultimate cause of all things, but He is not the direct cause, or author, of all things. In the case of the shooting, the shooter is the author or direct cause. The shooter is responsible for the shooting because he carried out the action and because he must give an account for what he has done. God does not have to give an account to anyone for what He has ordained, thus He is not responsible for what he has ordained.
We know that God is loving because He tells us that He is loving. He then also demonstrates that love.
 
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GodsElect

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Cavinism doesn't make sense
If God ordained the shooting then he caused it to happen. How can you say the man that did the shooting is evil when he was ordained to kill?
How can you say God is loving and the shooter is not?
How do you know God is loving?is it because what he has done?

You mean God betrayed,Tortured and crucified Christ?
God calles these wicked acts. Is God wicked?
Tell me how can you say God is love, what does that mean? Give me an example that makes God loving.



Romans 9:20-23 (NKJV)

But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

I think that you cannot make sense of plain scripture this is your problem.

If you want to know why God ordained the shooter, (vessel of wrath) to do this, why don't you inquire of Him? But we, as children of God, are given sufficient answers from scripture, from His word!

Yes this was a tragic event, but God has His purposes unknown to us. Why do you question Gods plan?

But even in this situation, do you think God let things "get out of control" from His eternal purposes?

He even shows us why these things happen. Even the news stations across the world portrayed the effect of this tragic event..... EVERYONE WAS IN PRAYER OR CRYING OUT TO GOD!!!! I bet you even prayed for the families of the victims didn't you?

God knows how to bring His sheep back to the fold and doesn't need YOU to speculate about WHY and HOW He does it.

God also knows how to bring about the betrayal of His Son to bring about the savior of His sheep.

Go ahead and question Him. O man.


 
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UMP

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You mean God betrayed,Tortured and crucified Christ?

No, men did so, "with wicked hands". Acts 2:23

God calles these wicked acts. Is God wicked?

No, God is not wicked, "there is no sin in him". 1 John 3:5

Tell me how can you say God is love, what does that mean? Give me an example that makes God loving

Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, who "willingly", "laid down" his life for undeserving sinners is love. 1 John 3:16, John 10:18
 
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orthedoxy

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God is the sole ultimate cause of all things, but He is not the direct cause, or author, of all things. In the case of the shooting, the shooter is the author or direct cause. The shooter is responsible for the shooting because he carried out the action and because he must give an account for what he has done. God does not have to give an account to anyone for what He has ordained, thus He is not responsible for what he has ordained.
We know that God is loving because He tells us that He is loving. He then also demonstrates that love.
If you say God didn't cause the evil event then how God is sovereign according to Calvinists.
Just like if one were to say I chose God who gets credit for salvation?
In the same way when a vessel does the shooting who is the criminal?
Godselect I'm not questioning God only your view of God.
 
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GodsElect

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Godselect I'm not questioning God only your view of God.

Call it what you will but, indeed you are questioning the absolute authority and sovereign ruler of creation, our God as described in the bible. And that is the Calvinists view of God, it's the bible's view of God.

In the 45th chapter of Isaiah...

.....I am the LORD, and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity;

I, the LORD, do all these things.’

 
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