Virginia Tech and Calvinism

[cygnusx1]

Judas was not ordained to commit the sin Jesus was simply telling the future.


These things are from scripture Read act 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
You see people can resist God.

No-one denies sinners resist God , in fact it is a forgone conclusion of mans total depravity.


Of course every Calvinist writer will grant spontanious actions of men (Judas was not forced at gun point to betray Christ ) while at the same time recognising God reigns over all events , the decree of God according to Calvinists is both permissive (God permits sin) and efficient (God directs all events for good) ...... is that fatalism ? Hardly!

Fatalism does not recognise a reason , there is no rhyme or reason in "fate" , and genuine secondary causes are none existent in a fatalistic world , ie, it matters not one jot if you repent or not , you are going to heaven or hell anyway........ that is fatalism!!! , and that is diametricaly opposed to what Calvinist's teach and believe !

Supposing a none elect person were to seek God , call upon the Lord , and trust in Jesus for salvation , is it true that Jesus would slam the door in his face and say "sorry , you are not chosen , I refuse to save you" ......... OF COURSE NOT , THE VERY IDEA IS PERVERSE !


(For anyone interested in the difference between fatalism (as conceived by Islam ) and Biblical Predestination and foreordination as concieved by the Reformed Church's post number 55 of the thread linked below may help , if you find within you a strong bias and an antagonism towards God's absolute Sovereignty then nothing will help and this post is not for you )

http://www.christianforums.com/t3140...sm.html&page=6

 

[5SolasMan]

[FONT=&quot]As a believer in Calvinism, how do you explain the killer at Virginia Tech? Was it predestined or was it a sinner from whom God removed His favor and let the sinners natural nature dictate the resulting actions?

I ask because I have been reading "Chosen by God," by R.C. Sproul and the question of how God hardens a persons heart came up. Sprouls explanation does not exactly square with what the Westminster Confession of Faith.

I would like to know how you deal with something like Virginia tech.[/FONT]

I believe it was an event carried out by an unregenerate soul. And someday and in some way, it will glorify God.

I'm curious about your comment on "Chosen By God". I have it on my shelf but have yet to read it. Dr. Sproul follows the WCF so I'm surprised to hear that something he wrote doesn't line up with it.

 

[Boxmaker]

I believe it was an event carried out by an unregenerate soul. And someday and in some way, it will glorify God.

I'm curious about your comment on "Chosen By God". I have it on my shelf but have yet to read it. Dr. Sproul follows the WCF so I'm surprised to hear that something he wrote doesn't line up with it.

Read it and see what you think. Sproul says early in the book that God has predetermined everything. He uses the example of a stray molecule prventing the Return of Christ. To ensure that doesn't happen, God predetermined everything. Note that he says God predetermined EVERYTHING.

Skip ahead a few chapters to where he discuses God hardening a heart. He explains that God just removes His hand from this persons heart and lets that person's sinful heart do the rest. That implies that God lets that person do as they will. How does that square with God predetermining everything?

It would seem that God removes His hand but has already predetermined that when He removes His hand, that person would pick-up a 9mm and a .22, chain the doors and open fire. For His glory.

Why did God send Noah's flood?

 

[cygnusx1]

Read it and see what you think. Sproul says early in the book that God has predetermined everything. He uses the example of a stray molecule prventing the Return of Christ. To ensure that doesn't happen, God predetermined everything. Note that he says God predetermined EVERYTHING.

Skip ahead a few chapters to where he discuses God hardening a heart. He explains that God just removes His hand from this persons heart and lets that person's sinful heart do the rest. That implies that God lets that person do as they will. How does that square with God predetermining everything?

It would seem that God removes His hand but has already predetermined that when He removes His hand, that person would pick-up a 9mm and a .22, chain the doors and open fire. For His glory.

Why did God send Noah's flood?

I don't see your problem at all

when you sit down for a meal with your family do you use a knife and fork ?

 

[Boxmaker]

...
Of course every Calvinist writer will grant spontanious actions of men (Judas was not forced at gun point to betray Christ ) while at the same time recognising God reigns over all events , the decree of God according to Calvinists is both permissive (God permits sin) and efficient (God directs all events for good) ...... is that fatalism ? Hardly!

Any Calvinist writer that grants the spontanious actions of men is not a believer in Calvinism. According the Westminster Confession, there is no spontanious actions as God has preordained whatsovere comes to pass. (See chapter 3)

Supposing a none elect person were to seek God , call upon the Lord , and trust in Jesus for salvation , is it true that Jesus would slam the door in his face and say "sorry , you are not chosen , I refuse to save you" ......... OF COURSE NOT , THE VERY IDEA IS PERVERSE !

The very idea is Calvinistic. None but the elect are capable of seeking God. The total depravity of the none elect will prevent them from seeking God. The door was never open for the non-elect, they were never chosen. Thats Calvinism, there are the elect and the non-elect. Predestined before the foundatioins of the world were laid to live in heaven or burn in hell.

 

[cygnusx1]

Any Calvinist writer that grants the spontanious actions of men is not a believer in Calvinism. According the Westminster Confession, there is no spontanious actions as God has preordained whatsovere comes to pass. (See chapter 3)

try reading the confession again , it is very clear that secondary causes (man's will) are intact!

The truth , and I know you cannot see it , is that the free actions of men are all foreordained , yes , all of them.

The very idea is Calvinistic. None but the elect are capable of seeking God. The total depravity of the none elect will prevent them from seeking God. The door was never open for the non-elect, they were never chosen. Thats Calvinism, there are the elect and the non-elect. Predestined before the foundatioins of the world were laid to live in heaven or burn in hell.

First off I am a Christian I am NOT in the habit of Lying and that statement is way off ,,,,,,,, nothing less than a perverse caricature of Calvinism , you really are unable , or unwilling to see it. The door is wide to all , all are welcome invited , God commands all men to repent and trust in Christ , election and reprobation not withstanding!

have a read and learn some basics ;

The denial of the gospel call.

This first and most extreme type of hyper-Calvinism denies that the gospel calls all sinners to repentance and faith. The gospel call (the invitation to come to Christ for salvation—Rev. 22:17; Matt. 11:28-29; Isa. 45:22; 55:1-7) is denied to all but the elect.


Historic Reformed theology notes that there are two different senses in which Scripture uses the word "call." The apostle Paul usually employs the word to speak of the effectual call, whereby an elect sinner is sovereignly drawn by God unto salvation. Obviously this "call" applies only to the elect alone (Rom. 8:28-30).

But Scripture also describes a general call. In Matthew 22:14, Jesus said, "Many are called, but few are chosen." Here, those who are "called" are clearly more in number than the elect. So our Lord is quite obviously using the word "call" in a different sense from how Paul used it in Romans 8:30.

The general call, sometimes known as the external call, is the call to faith and repentance inherent in the gospel message itself. When the gospel is preached, the general call goes out indiscriminately to all who come under the preaching of the gospel. This call is issued by the preacher as an ambassador of Christ.

The effectual call, sometimes known as the internal call, is the regenerating work of God in the hearts of His elect, whereby He draws them to Christ and opens their hearts unto faith. This call is for the elect alone and is issued by God alone.

This first variety of hyper-Calvinism denies the general, external call, and insists that the gospel should be preached in a way that proclaims the facts about Christ's work and God's electing grace—without calling for any kind of response.

This is the worst form of hyper-Calvinism in vogue today. I'd class it as an extremely serious error, more dangerous than the worst variety of Arminianism. At least the Arminian preaches enough of the gospel for the elect to hear it and be saved. The hyper-Calvinist who denies the gospel call doesn't even believe in calling sinners to Christ. He almost fears to whisper the gospel summons to other believers, lest anyone accuse him of violating divine sovereignty.

English hyper-Calvinists (most happen to be Baptists), American "Gospel Standard" hypers, and Primitive Baptists have traditionally held to this form of hyper-Calvinism. They generally oppose evangelism of any kind. They would (usually) also embrace all five errors of hyper-Calvinism listed above. Their rhetoric tends to be extremely arrogant and elitist—the natural outgrowth of such theology. Normally they claim that they alone are consistent and true to the doctrines of divine sovereignty, and label every other view "Arminianism" or (lately) "hypo-Calvinism."

An early 18th-century British independent (baptistic) pastor named William Huntington is the godfather of this position. This brand of hyper-Calvinism often also has strong antinomian tendencies, traceable back to Huntington, who denied that the moral law is binding as a rule of life on the Christian. Such antinomianism harmonizes well with hyper-Calvinism's denial of human responsibility. (It is also an extension of the same wrong thinking that denies the preceptive will of God.)

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm

 

[Boxmaker]

try reading the confession again , it is very clear that secondary causes (man's will) are intact!

The truth , and I know you cannot see it , is that the free actions of men are all foreordained , yes , all of them.

Foreordained free will?

First off I am a Christian I am NOT in the habit of Lying and that statement is way off ,,,,,,,, nothing less than a perverse caricature of Calvinism , you really are unable , or unwilling to see it. The door is wide to all , all are welcome invited , God commands all men to repent and trust in Christ , election and reprobation not withstanding!

And only the elect are capable of responding. Only they have the regenerate heart to allow them to responde. That is what Calvinism says. R.C. Sproul makes no bones about it. He teaches that there is double election - those elected for heaven and those elected for hell. Your passage to me about what Calvinism is does not square with Sproul. Which Calvinism is the correct Calvinism?

 

[cygnusx1]

Foreordained free will?

Right! Only I don't like the term "Free-will" because it means different things to different people. Unforced will is better.

Now I ask you to quote from the Westminster Confession IN FULL this time , don't try implying the Confession merely says all things (they are) are foreordained by God , you are misleading the reader by using only a part of that confession , just as I woukld be if I said "go and hate your parents" Jesus said so!

And only the elect are capable of responding. Only they have the regenerate heart to allow them to responde. That is what Calvinism says. R.C. Sproul makes no bones about it. He teaches that there is double election - those elected for heaven and those elected for hell. Your passage to me about what Calvinism is does not square with Sproul. Which Calvinism is the correct Calvinism?

The pictures bigger than that , all you are doing is trying to reduce things , I can do that ; God is Sovereign and man is a stinking wretch!
what you need to do is ask some preliminary inquieries , like , *how is it that sin can be predicted if the future is open and free of God's control................

 

[Boxmaker]

Right! Only I don't like the term "Free-will" because it means different things to different people. Unforced will is better.

Now I ask you to quote from the Westminster Confession IN FULL this time , don't try implying the Confession merely says all things (they are) are foreordained by God , you are misleading the reader by using only a part of that confession , just as I woukld be if I said "go and hate your parents" Jesus said so!

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Note that the second clause (red) is in contridiction of the first clause (blue). THe first clause states very clearly that God has ordained EVERYTHING that comes to pass. No exceptions. The second clause then states that God is not responsible for the things He ordains.

I am sorry, but that glaring contridiction collapses the confession like a house divided against itself. You may believe it but I find that it does not fit with God as He revealed Himself in scripture.

The pictures bigger than that , all you are doing is trying to reduce things , I can do that ; God is Sovereign and man is a stinking wretch!
what you need to do is ask some preliminary inquieries , like , *how is it that sin can be predicted if the future is open and free of God's control................

We are wretched but we are God's creation and He has set about to redeem us. Calvinism assumes that God is restricted by time. God can ordain what will be but once that is done He can never interfere with it again. (Please refer to the first clause of Chapter 3 of the WCF highlighted in blue above for support of that statement.)

God is not subject time. God created time. He can move through time and has perfect knowledge of all things past, present and future. He knows who will accept His sacrifice and who will not because He can see through time in a way we cannot. God created man with free will. Again, that will is only free to choose from what is available. Our choice is not infinite nor is it restrained. We must choose. Just as Adam chose to sin, so to must each of us choose Christ as our saviour. That choice is not independant of God. A meaningful choice for Christ requires that Christ moves in our lives. Having been created in God's image, we know that something is missing from our lives. When Christ shows us what is missing, we can respond to that and ask Jesus back into our heart. As Adam kicked God out of His heart, now we must open our hearts back up to Him.

May the Peace of Christ be with you this week.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Note that the second clause (red) is in contridiction of the first clause (blue). THe first clause states very clearly that God has ordained EVERYTHING that comes to pass. No exceptions. The second clause then states that God is not responsible for the things He ordains.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this...and we're probably at an impasse. The second clause does not contradict, but clarifies.

You may believe it but I find that it does not fit with God as He revealed Himself in scripture.

Actually...it is exactly as God reveals Himself in Scripture. "What you meant for evil, God meant for good..." while at the same time, the perpetrators of the evil are still held responsible and accountable for their actions. Look at some of the Old Testament prophecies...how God tells Israel that He is going to bring other nations against them in judgement...and then He turns around and tells the other nations that they will not escape judgement for their actions against Israel.

EDIT: When I had originally posted this, I couldn't remember the exact Scriptures. Try reading Isaiah 10...

ISA 10:5-6 "Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger,
in whose hand is the club of my wrath!

I send him against a godless nation,
I dispatch him against a people who anger me,
to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.

It clearly says that God is sending the Assyrians against Israel. It doesn't say that God is simply allowing the Assyrians to move against Israel. The Assyrians were a tool in God's hand...even though their motives were entirely different from God's...

ISA 10:7-11 But this is not what he intends,
this is not what he has in mind;
his purpose is to destroy,
to put an end to many nations.
`Are not my commanders all kings?' he says.
`Has not Calno fared like Carchemish?
Is not Hamath like Arpad,
and Samaria like Damascus?
As my hand seized the kingdoms of the idols,
kingdoms whose images excelled those of Jerusalem and Samaria--
shall I not deal with Jerusalem and her images
as I dealt with Samaria and her idols?' "

Their motives were quite different from God's...and God was going to hold them accountable for it even though they played exactly into God's plan...

ISA 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.

But then in our Enlightenment rationalization, we raise the question "How can this be fair? How can God hold us accountable for doing what he wanted us to do?!" Can you recognize anywhere else in Scripture where this same question was asked?

God is not subject time. God created time. He can move through time and has perfect knowledge of all things past, present and future. He knows who will accept His sacrifice and who will not because He can see through time in a way we cannot.

This view was satisfying for me while I still held to CS Lewis' explanation of how predestination works...but this view does not fit the actual grammar of Romans 9; therefore, it contradicts Scripture.

 

[cygnusx1]

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Note that the second clause (red) is in contridiction of the first clause (blue). THe first clause states very clearly that God has ordained EVERYTHING that comes to pass. No exceptions. The second clause then states that God is not responsible for the things He ordains.

I don't agree with you here at all Box , your view is far to simplistic and ignores how God has revealed Himself in scripture. I have already asked you does God permit evil , including sin , you replied yes , and permitting evil is an act of the will , seeing as God is endowed with a free will , it follows that all events by a logical deduction as well as the testimony of God's word , must come directly from God's will , His will is both permissive (permitting sins) and efficient (causing good).


"For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. " Romans 11:36

I am sorry, but that glaring contridiction collapses the confession like a house divided against itself. You may believe it but I find that it does not fit with God as He revealed Himself in scripture.

no it doesn't ! there is no contradiction whatsoever in the confession. The contradiction is in your inabilility to grasp the concept.

We are wretched but we are God's creation and He has set about to redeem us. Calvinism assumes that God is restricted by time. God can ordain what will be but once that is done He can never interfere with it again. (Please refer to the first clause of Chapter 3 of the WCF highlighted in blue above for support of that statement.)

Calvinism does not and never has restricted God by time , show any Calvinist who does ! Rather you are busy painting what you think Calvinism should be made to say .....straw man arguements are invalid....

God is not subject time. God created time. He can move through time and has perfect knowledge of all things past, present and future. He knows who will accept His sacrifice and who will not because He can see through time in a way we cannot. God created man with free will. Again, that will is only free to choose from what is available. Our choice is not infinite nor is it restrained. We must choose. Just as Adam chose to sin, so to must each of us choose Christ as our saviour. That choice is not independant of God. A meaningful choice for Christ requires that Christ moves in our lives. Having been created in God's image, we know that something is missing from our lives. When Christ shows us what is missing, we can respond to that and ask Jesus back into our heart. As Adam kicked God out of His heart, now we must open our hearts back up to Him.

May the Peace of Christ be with you this week.

Perfect knowledge does not account for accuracy of Prophecy , the whole reason the Open Theist movement arose in the first place was because they cannot tolerate a Sovereign God , but they also logically , unlike you , recognise perfect knowledge of all future events is a serious blow to the freedom of man! So they have done away with God's perfect knowledge and accuse God of having limited knowledge , otheriwse the future is certain and if certain then it is fixed , QED.

Finally , scripture is not really concerned with defending God by saying He ,merely knows what will happen regarding the sinful actions of men but considers God as the Sovereign in every respect and above a childish need to defend Him


for example ;


Acts 2 :


22 You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know. 23 This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him. 24 But God raised him up, releasing him from the throes of death, because it was impossible for him to be held by it. 25 For David says of him: 'I saw the Lord ever before me, with him at my right hand I shall not be disturbed. 26 Therefore my heart has been glad and my tongue has exulted; my flesh, too, will dwell in hope, 27 because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.'


Acts 4;

3 There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved." 13 Observing the boldness of Peter and John and perceiving them to be uneducated, ordinary men, they were amazed, and they recognized them as the companions of Jesus. 14 Then when they saw the man who had been cured standing there with them, they could say nothing in reply. 15 So they ordered them to leave the Sanhedrin, and conferred with one another, saying, 16 "What are we to do with these men? Everyone living in Jerusalem knows that a remarkable sign was done through them, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it may not be spread any further among the people, let us give them a stern warning never again to speak to anyone in this name." 18 So they called them back and ordered them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 Peter and John, however, said to them in reply, "Whether it is right in the sight of God for us to obey you rather than God, you be the judges. 20 It is impossible for us not to speak about what we have seen and heard." 21 After threatening them further, they released them, finding no way to punish them, on account of the people who were all praising God for what had happened. 22 For the man on whom this sign of healing had been done was over forty years old. 23 After their release they went back to their own people and reported what the chief priests and elders had told them. 24 And when they heard it, they raised their voices to God with one accord and said, "Sovereign Lord, maker of heaven and earth and the sea and all that is in them, 25 you said by the holy Spirit through the mouth of our father David, your servant: 'Why did the Gentiles rage and the peoples entertain folly? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand and the princes gathered together against the Lord and against his anointed.' 27 Indeed they gathered in this city against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed, Herod 4 and Pontius Pilate, together with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do what your hand and (your) will had long ago planned to take place. 29 And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and enable your servants to speak your word with all boldness, 30 as you stretch forth (your) hand to heal, and signs and wonders are done through the name of your holy servant Jesus."


have a good week.

 

[orthedoxy]

What does ordain mean?
If God ordains something how can he not be the author of that thing?
How can one cause something and not be the author?
If God is not the author of bad how is he the author of good?

 

[Boxmaker]

I don't agree with you here at all Box , your view is far to simplistic and ignores how God has revealed Himself in scripture. I have already asked you does God permit evil , including sin , you replied yes , and permitting evil is an act of the will , seeing as God is endowed with a free will , it follows that all events by a logical deduction as well as the testimony of God's word , must come directly from God's will , His will is both permissive (permitting sins) and efficient (causing good).


"For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. " Romans 11:36




no it doesn't ! there is no contradiction whatsoever in the confession. The contradiction is in your inabilility to grasp the concept.






Calvinism does not and never has restricted God by time , show any Calvinist who does ! Rather you are busy painting what you think Calvinism should be made to say .....straw man arguements are invalid....



Perfect knowledge does not account for accuracy of Prophecy , the whole reason the Open Theist movement arose in the first place was because they cannot tolerate a Sovereign God , but they also logically , unlike you , recognise perfect knowledge of all future events is a serious blow to the freedom of man! So they have done away with God's perfect knowledge and accuse God of having limited knowledge , otheriwse the future is certain and if certain then it is fixed , QED.

Finally , scripture is not really concerned with defending God by saying He ,merely knows what will happen regarding the sinful actions of men but considers God as the Sovereign in every respect and above a childish need to defend Him


for example ;


Acts 2 :


22 You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know. 23 This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him. 24 But God raised him up, releasing him from the throes of death, because it was impossible for him to be held by it. 25 For David says of him: 'I saw the Lord ever before me, with him at my right hand I shall not be disturbed. 26 Therefore my heart has been glad and my tongue has exulted; my flesh, too, will dwell in hope, 27 because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.'


Acts 4;

3 There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved." 13 Observing the boldness of Peter and John and perceiving them to be uneducated, ordinary men, they were amazed, and they recognized them as the companions of Jesus. 14 Then when they saw the man who had been cured standing there with them, they could say nothing in reply. 15 So they ordered them to leave the Sanhedrin, and conferred with one another, saying, 16 "What are we to do with these men? Everyone living in Jerusalem knows that a remarkable sign was done through them, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it may not be spread any further among the people, let us give them a stern warning never again to speak to anyone in this name." 18 So they called them back and ordered them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 Peter and John, however, said to them in reply, "Whether it is right in the sight of God for us to obey you rather than God, you be the judges. 20 It is impossible for us not to speak about what we have seen and heard." 21 After threatening them further, they released them, finding no way to punish them, on account of the people who were all praising God for what had happened. 22 For the man on whom this sign of healing had been done was over forty years old. 23 After their release they went back to their own people and reported what the chief priests and elders had told them. 24 And when they heard it, they raised their voices to God with one accord and said, "Sovereign Lord, maker of heaven and earth and the sea and all that is in them, 25 you said by the holy Spirit through the mouth of our father David, your servant: 'Why did the Gentiles rage and the peoples entertain folly? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand and the princes gathered together against the Lord and against his anointed.' 27 Indeed they gathered in this city against your holy servant Jesus whom you anointed, Herod 4 and Pontius Pilate, together with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do what your hand and (your) will had long ago planned to take place. 29 And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and enable your servants to speak your word with all boldness, 30 as you stretch forth (your) hand to heal, and signs and wonders are done through the name of your holy servant Jesus."


have a good week.

Your scripture quotes show that God has a plan and that He carries out His plans. They do not prove that God does so by determining each and every action of our lives. God's will is done regardless of our efforts to help or hinder God accomplish His will. Thats sovergienty!

 

[cygnusx1]

Your scripture quotes show that God has a plan and that He carries out His plans. They do not prove that God does so by determining each and every action of our lives. God's will is done regardless of our efforts to help or hinder God accomplish His will. Thats sovergienty!

No it's a pretend sovereignty you have there Box , you wish to say God controls only some things , I have shown already a number of times , that Divine Sovereignty is exaustive including governing men's sins ......... We believe God works all things together for good ......... you believe He doesn't!
We believe God works all things after the council of His will , you believe He doesn't !
your just attempting to hide bro , just face up to some straight questions .

start here .

Has God planned to save everybody , yes or no ?

 

[Boxmaker]

No it's a pretend sovereignty you have there Box , you wish to say God controls only some things , I have shown already a number of times , that Divine Sovereignty is exaustive including governing men's sins ......... We believe God works all things together for good ......... you believe He doesn't!

False statement about what I believe. I believe God works all things together for good and He does so without having preordained everything that comes to pass.

We believe God works all things after the council of His will , you believe He doesn't !

Another false statement about what I believe. God works things all things according to the council of His will without having preordained whatsoever comes to pass. Again, thats true sovergienty. The ability to control things without predetermining every little action.

your just attempting to hide bro , just face up to some straight questions .

start here .

Has God planned to save everybody , yes or no ?

Yes. It is Gods stated desire that all men be saved. Not all men will be saved, only those that believe in their hearts and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord will be saved.

 

[bradfordl]

The ability to control things without predetermining every little action.

So God's a "big picture Guy", and leaves the little details to play out independently? He just channels the course of the river, not every little splash and eddy? Well, that may comfort you somewhat in your desire to retain for yourself some control, but the irony is that in your little paradigm it is not the "liitle actions" that are left unordained, but the major ones. Like the "decision" that saves a man - seems to be a tad important. Or the "decision" of a madman to end the lives of 31 human beings - is that a "little action"?

You're getting hardened, Box. We've seen the same incoherent rattletrap over and over in your attempt to hide your eyes from the glaring truth of God's absolute and infinitely meticulous control over all things. The scriptures declare it plainly. Nature itself screams it at you from every corner you lay your eyes upon. The only thing that denies it is your self-aggrandizing mindset that just refuses to acknowledge that God is nothing like you, that you are mere dust, and that the sole purpose of your existence is to glorify Him. You like the fairy tale that God sees you as something special, something worth going to all this trouble in creating the universe so He can give a special place in it. But this is not so. He has done all this for His Son, not you or me, and He loves us because of His Son, because by showing mercy to the elect He is glorifying His Son and Himself.

You may want the pre-emminence, but it belongs to Jesus, and His Father will not brook you stealing His Son's glory.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 

[Boxmaker]

So God's a "big picture Guy", and leaves the little details to play out independently? He just channels the course of the river, not every little splash and eddy? Well, that may comfort you somewhat in your desire to retain for yourself some control, but the irony is that in your little paradigm it is not the "liitle actions" that are left unordained, but the major ones. Like the "decision" that saves a man - seems to be a tad important. Or the "decision" of a madman to end the lives of 31 human beings - is that a "little action"?

You're getting hardened, Box. We've seen the same incoherent rattletrap over and over in your attempt to hide your eyes from the glaring truth of God's absolute and infinitely meticulous control over all things. The scriptures declare it plainly. Nature itself screams it at you from every corner you lay your eyes upon. The only thing that denies it is your self-aggrandizing mindset that just refuses to acknowledge that God is nothing like you, that you are mere dust, and that the sole purpose of your existence is to glorify Him. You like the fairy tale that God sees you as something special, something worth going to all this trouble in creating the universe so He can give a special place in it. But this is not so. He has done all this for His Son, not you or me, and He loves us because of His Son, because by showing mercy to the elect He is glorifying His Son and Himself.

You may want the pre-emminence, but it belongs to Jesus, and His Father will not brook you stealing His Son's glory.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

I most assuradly do not agree with that assesment of mankind. It is flat out wrong. The universe was not created for Jesus, it was created for us. When Adam and Eve sinned, God didn't abandon us, He set about to redeem us to Him. Jesus is our redemption, not the object of God's creation. Don't you see the love God has for us? We sinned. God wants us back. He wants us back so baddly that He created the perfect blood sacrifice so that our sin would be forgiven.

The fact that God sent Jesus to take our sins upon Him and die for them and rise again from the dead so that we might be redeemed to eternal life clearly indicates that God does not see us as insignificant specs of dust. God loves us more than we can possible understand.

I used to think, from my Catholic childhood, that God saw us as insignificant bugs. As I spent more time in scripture I learned that that is not true at all. God created us because He loves us and He wants us to love Him in return. Since sin prevented that, Jesus came and took our sins to the cross. When He died, the curtain that seperated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple was torn in half. That was God's message to the world that the wall of sin that had seperated the heart of man from the heart of God was forever torn down. It is now possible to have a relationship with God because the sin that seperated us from God is now behind Him, never to be remembered.

 

[UMP]

The universe was not created for Jesus, it was created for us.

Colossians 1:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

 

[Boxmaker]

Colossians 1:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Yes we were created for communion with God, we were created for God.

Colossians 16:15-23
The Supremacy of Christ

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Pretty amazing isn't it. God loves us so much that He, as Jesus, died to redeem us to Him, to put His created order back in the order that Adam and Eve interrupted.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Hey, box...any replies to post #90?