What to do with unapologetic "Cafeteria Catholics?"

[Metanoia02]

Every apologist from here to Augustine has used scripture to show the truth of a doctrine, (lame as they may sometimes be.)

So which is it? We can use Scripture or we can't. Seems like you want to have it both ways. When we use Scripture it is lame, but when we don't it is all some warped and distorted tradition.

 

[gentlestorm]

So which is it? We can use Scripture or we can't. Seems like you want to have it both ways. When we use Scripture it is lame, but when we don't it is all some warped and distorted tradition.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.
The tradition is controlling and arbitrary and covers itself with scanty interpretations of scripture.
Yes. Use scripture but make sure it jives in a solid way.
Why pretend it comes from scripture when it doesn't?

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.
The tradition is controlling and arbitrary and covers itself with scanty interpretations of scripture.
Yes. Use scripture but make sure it jives in a solid way.
Why pretend it comes from scripture when it doesn't?

I suppose that depends on if you assume that the correct interpretation of scripture is the one intended by the human author or not. Some actually think that the things put down in scripture hint at things the church would later reveal, but were hidden to the actualy author. If that makes sense.

 

[MikeK]

No doubt my formation probably isn't the best but if one doesn't hold the Immaculate Conception to be true or the Infallability of the Pope to be true then one is not a true Catholic.
What I find is that through tradition or long standing popular devotion or belief the church will make something a doctrine and then frantically paddle backwards to try to find scripture that will in some remote indirect way bolster the move.
It all seems so human and arbitrary and ,frankly, controlling.
I do believe the Catholic church is from the apostles in some way but it has accrued a lot of barnacles on it's voyage through time.

Thank-you for typing this, you have put into one paragraph what I have been feeling for years. I want to stay catholic, but I am really struggling with the very issues you speak of. I'm to the point where I can say that I don't even WANT to believe those things anymore, I tried, and I just don't see it. Birth control is the other issue that I have a real problem with the church's teaching on, I simply do not agree with their arguments against it. I have prayed about these things, read all I can, and the more of the Church's teaching and history I study, the less I believe. Where we are is not a fun place to be, my brother.

 

[Metanoia02]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.
The tradition is controlling and arbitrary and covers itself with scanty interpretations of scripture.
Yes. Use scripture but make sure it jives in a solid way.
Why pretend it comes from scripture when it doesn't?

Tradition does not cover itself with scanty Scripture. It stands on its own. Where Scripture can help illuminate a doctrine it should be used.

For the record I do not read modern apologist very often because they usually play to a Protestant audiance and sometimes overreach in using Scripture. I am content that what the Church teaches is true.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Thank-you for typing this, you have put into one paragraph what I have been feeling for years. I want to stay catholic, but I am really struggling with the very issues you speak of. I'm to the point where I can say that I don't even WANT to believe those things anymore, I tried, and I just don't see it. Birth control is the other issue that I have a real problem with the church's teaching on, I simply do not agree with their arguments against it. I have prayed about these things, read all I can, and the more of the Church's teaching and history I study, the less I believe. Where we are is not a fun place to be, my brother.

Sometimes there's not much you can do other than keep an open mind.

 

[gentlestorm]

I have prayed about these things, read all I can, and the more of the Church's teaching and history I study, the less I believe. Where we are is not a fun place to be, my brother.

Yes. I have read for years and years and there is so much that seems to be held together by scotch tape and fear of going to hell that I am discouraged to put it mildly.
How can anyone believe wholeheartedly in all the church teaches is what really baffles me.
At the mention of indulgences and the reasoning behind it i go batty.
Another element that is most disturbing is the complacency of many many Catholics that because they are in the right religion all is well. It's a club mentality and i see it everywhere.

 

[gentlestorm]

Tradition does not cover itself with scanty Scripture. It stands on its own. Where Scripture can help illuminate a doctrine it should be used.

For the record I do not read modern apologist very often because they usually play to a Protestant audiance and sometimes overreach in using Scripture. I am content that what the Church teaches is true.

You, sir, are a true Catholic. God bless you and keep you. In a real way I'm envious of you. I wish I could trust the church the way you do. I don't. The reasoning ,poor as it may be, I have applied to some doctrines and my experience of humans and my reading of the Scriptures has made me sceptical of Catholicism.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Yes. I have read for years and years and there is so much that seems to be held together by scotch tape and fear of going to hell that I am discouraged to put it mildly.
How can anyone believe wholeheartedly in all the church teaches is what really baffles me.
At the mention of indulgences and the reasoning behind it i go batty.
Another element that is most disturbing is the complacency of many many Catholics that because they are in the right religion all is well. It's a club mentality and i see it everywhere.

Wasn't the reasoning behind indulgences to lessen a man's penance, if it were unmanageably harsh? Hardly seems that disgusting...

 

[gentlestorm]

Wasn't the reasoning behind indulgences to lessen a man's penance, if it were unmanageably harsh? Hardly seems that disgusting...

Do you believe it is justice to be unpunished for your crime?
Do you think punishing my child for his wrong is not loving him?
Do you think a pope or anyone can alter cause and effect?
Do you think you will not reap what you sow?

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Do you believe it is justice to be unpunished for your crime?
Do you think punishing my child for his wrong is not loving him?
Do you think a pope or anyone can alter cause and effect?
Do you think you will not reap what you sow?

1) Of course not. Thankfully Christ took the blame for me, so I don't go to the hell I deserve.
I think you need to look into the whole purgatory/indulgence thing a bit more if you really believe that. Purgatory is more about cleansing than about punishment.

2)Of course not, kids needs disipline. What's your point?

3)Explain.

4) I get to reap what God sows in me.

 

[gentlestorm]

1) Of course not. Thankfully Christ took the blame for me, so I don't go to the hell I deserve.
I think you need to look into the whole purgatory/indulgence thing a bit more if you really believe that. Purgatory is more about cleansing than about punishment.

2)Of course not, kids needs disipline. What's your point?

3)Explain.

4) I get to reap what God sows in me.

Aren't Indugences the remitting of temporal suffering due to sin? Isn't temporal suffering exactly what i need to be rid of that sin? Temporal suffering is what brought me to Christ. God bless temporal suffering. I dont want any trip to a shrine or the right prayer to rid me of my God given temporal suffering. It is the medicine for bad habits.

 

[NDIrish]

Do you believe it is justice to be unpunished for your crime?
Do you think punishing my child for his wrong is not loving him?
Do you think a pope or anyone can alter cause and effect?
Do you think you will not reap what you sow?

There's always a danger of stressing either God's mercy or His judgment too much. He is both perfectly just AND perfectly merciful. For what it's worth...

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Aren't Indugences the remitting of temporal suffering due to sin? Isn't temporal suffering exactly what i need to be rid of that sin? Temporal suffering is what brought me to Christ. God bless temporal suffering. I dont want any trip to a shrine or the right prayer to rid me of my God given temporal suffering. It is the medicine for bad habits.

Don't then. You don't have to obtain an indulgence if you don't want to. It's just that in the early Church, when priests gave very harsh penances, (e.g. sackcloth and ashes for about 30 years kinda thing) the church would step in and say "hey, do this, thing, and we'll call it quits" the doctrine came out of that kind of compassion for sinners. Of course there were cases of it being abused later, but those instances were (mostly) set straight by the council of Trent.

There was a great post from NewMan99 on this subject way back.

 

[gentlestorm]

There's always a danger of stressing either God's mercy or His judgment too much. He is both perfectly just AND perfectly merciful. For what it's worth...

God's mercy is God's justice. They are inseparable.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Yeah, isn't it that the paradox of his infinite mercy and love and his perfect justice were reconciled at the cross?

Think I read that somewhere.

 

[NiteClerk]

....
(What is a "cafeteria catholic" anyway? I have never heard that expression before. Is it an American thing?)

Like picking and choosing what food you want in a cafeteria, a cafeteria Catholic is someone who picks and chooses which beliefs and practices of the Catholic faith they will follow. The problem is that being Catholic means you follow the Popes' guidance in matters of faith and doctrine.

18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

As an example, I have a hard time believing intellectually in Transubstantiation (when the wine and host literally turn into the blood and body of Jesus). But as a matter of faith I accept it because this is Catholic dogma. If I went around arguing against Transubstantiation and saying it doesn't occure, I would be a cafeteria Catholic. Other common issues are abortion, female priests/married priest and homosexuality. Again, to be a Catholic means that you fully accept Romes authority to set doctrine for the faithful.

Pax,

Bob

 

[MikeK]

Again, to be a Catholic means that you fully accept Romes authority to set doctrine for the faithful.

Fair enough. Rome can set doctrine. Am I under obligation to agree with or believe said doctorine. If I believe that a particular piece of doctrine is either unfounded or outright incorrect, am I no longer Catholic? If I disagree with certain doctrines, am I to abstain from the Eucharist? I don't speak out against the teachings that I personally don't believe, but I am no longer actively trying to make myself believe what I don't believe. What should I do? I could talk to my Priest, but I have a feeling that he would tell me to "just believe what you can and don't sweat the small stuff". I am quite active in my Parish and part of me suspects that our Priest would likely tell me whatever I wanted to hear to get me to stay. This is the same Priest who told my wife and I that cohabitation before marriage was for the most part okay and not sinful as we did it out of love - though I guess that's a separate issue.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

Just pray and keep an open mind, you don't have to kill yourself in order to try and believe something, but it's not that much to admit to yourself you could be wrong. I mean, there are a great many incredibly intelligent people out there who do believe in it all wholeheartedly, after all.*shrug*

 

[Metanoia02]

Yeah, isn't it that the paradox of his infinite mercy and love and his perfect justice were reconciled at the cross?

Think I read that somewhere.

Yes, that is why I believe in Purgatory. We receive Justice and Mercy all at the same time.