Water Baptism - Is It Really Necessary?

[Assisi]

I sometimes think that the words of Christ as written in the Bible are the only ones people decide to take figuritively! The Bible is literal except for the words of Christ??!

The Bible is important, let's take the accounts of the gospel more seriously that the epistles though!

Iggy quotes a good scripture though. Water and Spirit are not two separate baptisms in our church. It's one baptism, of water and Spirit.

 

[GenemZ]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

That was explained to you, sir!

When Jesus told Nicodemus to be born again, the baptism of John was the only baptism to have. Water!

How could Jesus tell him to be baptized in the Spirit? That would not take place till later on. The water mentioned was directed towards Nicodemus, not us.

John 7:38-39 (New International Version)
" Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified."
​

How could Jesus mention the Spirit baptism at that time? Nicodemus needed to get saved. Water baptism was the ritual in salvation to the Jews at that time. The Jews were under law, and ritual played a part in law.

Galatians 5:18 niv
"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."
​

We are not to be living in an age of ritual any longer. For, we are not under Law if we are led of the Spirit. If we are carnal, and not led, some might crave ritual and regulation. There are always those denominations willing to oblidge those who desire it. They never grow spiritually. They are only stimulated emotionally.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Assisi]

We are not to be living in an age of ritual any longer. For, we are not under Law if we are led of the Spirit. If we are carnal, and not led, some might crave ritual and regulation. There are always those denominations willing to oblidge those who desire it. They never grow spiritually. They are only stimulated emotionally.

This is a bit harsh I think. After all we are physical creatures as well as spiritual ones. God gave us bodies, and a material world.

We are not under the Law because Christ came to fulfill it. But now that we have Christ we strive to bend our will to God's will and be free from the Law because we do not desire to break it. Freedom from the Law is not disregarding the Law, it's loving God so much that we don't need the Law to tell us right from wrong, because we know it's on our hearts.

I think I might be in one of the denominations to which you refer. We have a lot of Spiritual growth. The physical helps us to realise the invisible reality.

 

[Theophorus]

I sometimes think that the words of Christ as written in the Bible are the only ones people decide to take figuritively! The Bible is literal except for the words of Christ??!

The Bible is important, let's take the accounts of the gospel more seriously that the epistles though!

The Gospels, it seems, has been suplanted by the man who penned Romans; and he was baptized.

 

[GenemZ]

This is a bit harsh I think. After all we are physical creatures as well as spiritual ones. God gave us bodies, and a material world.

It only seems harsh when someone is defending the truth of the Bible against what wants to substitute for the Christian way of Life. Ritual used to be the way. And, yes. It does please the flesh emotionally and please the eyes with things that substitute for knowing truth for oneself. Just like watching a great movie can be uplifting and moving... but its not spiritual. Ritual moves us. Spirituality TRANSFORMS us.

Ritualistic obedience? Our Father is after something beyond that. Jesus said:

John 4:23-24 (New International Version)
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
​

Being spiritual is where the LORD wants to share his eyes with you. To put us here in his place, seeing the world and life as he sees it, not as mere humans see it.

He wants us to develop a love for the Father like he has a love for the Father. Jesus always shunned what mere men saw as emotionally stimulating through outward appearance, and always found his happiness and joy in his love for the Father. He wants us to become more like Him, not simply like mere men who worship Him as those who look at him from afar.

John 14:20-21 (New International Version)
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
​

We are not under the Law because Christ came to fulfill it. But now that we have Christ we strive to bend our will to God's will and be free from the Law because we do not desire to break it.

We must discover how to be controlled by the Spirit, and when we do. We will not break the Law by second nature. That's the point. It is to be done by grace, not our flesh learning a new script to follow using Scriptural mandates. Morality is for everyone. Many an unbeliever can be moral. God wants manifested in us VIRTUE. That only comes through transformation. Becoming a new person on the inside. Transformed by Spirit and Truth. Ritual can only demand conformity. Spirit and Truth (God's Word) transforms! That is why I seemed harsh. A substitute to replace God desired way had been raised up to please the flesh.

2 Corinthians 3:18 niv
"And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
​

Jesus never prayed to dead saints. he never subjected himself to the many rituals designed by men. We are to become transformed to being LIKE HE IS.

He only prayed to the Father. To do otherwise would have cheapened his love for the Father and placed the Father on a lower level of importance. Transformation causes us to eventually discover Christ working in us, causing us to see what he see in the world. Ritual he disdained... Many fail to get this.

Freedom from the Law is not disregarding the Law, it's loving God so much that we don't need the Law to tell us right from wrong, because we know it's on our hearts.

That is correct. That becomes autonomous morality.

I think I might be in one of the denominations to which you refer. We have a lot of Spiritual growth. The physical helps us to realise the invisible reality.

Many confuse emotional stimulation with what is spiritual. Spirituality transforms our emotions. They no longer feel moved by mere ritual and ceremony. No more than Christ would.

Mark 13:1-3 (New International Version)
"As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!"
​

"Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." ​

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately."​

The Jews were deeply moved emotionally by the glory of the Temple. They were moved and awe struck. Just like many feel moved when they think of a great cathedral, ot even the Vatican. Same human nature involved. The Jews were moved to great awe at the thought of the Temple.

Jesus treated it as it were nothing. he would appear to be harsh to them. He spoke of how it was to be destroyed. As if it were to become nothing. It was said as a means to get them away from where they were being distracted from God.

They went away and later asked him privately about what he said. The Greek indicates they were avoiding asking until they could be out of sight of others. Because to say anything against the Temple was punishable by death. Just as certain religions teach to hold certain ritual up as to be Divine. That is why at his trials some were accusing him (wrongly) about him saying he would destroy the Temple.

Ritual is filler. Truth is substance.

"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. " ​

"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."​

Not, ritual.​

Harsh as it may seem to some. God will have it no other way and have it acceptable to his desired will.


Grace and truth, GeneZ

 

[Iollain]

There we go again. Please? Read the following? After you do? Show me how what you just said is possible?

Ephesians 4:5
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism."

​

It says, what?

But? You just told us....

​

Am I seeing double? I can swear it says that we have only one baptism for the Church age!

Now? Explain what you did, again? I don't get it. Two baptisms = one?

1+1=1

absolutely!


Grace and peace, GeneZ
​

​

I don't get it either but Jesus did say to be baptised, so we should be baptised

 

[BroGinder]

Ok help me out here, If you have covered this Genez forgive me for I missed it and skimming back is like a nightmare forgive me can we explain the event at Cornelius' house. They recieved the baptism of the Spirit. They were then commanded to go be Baptized in Water. They had already been born hence this negates the possibility that natural birth is the baptism of water the scripture referes to. Since the word of God does not contradict itself. The born of Water must be as the scriputere says, Born of the Water and Spirit.

The apostles were commanded to go, preach baptizing... Since man can not offer the Baptism of Spirit this can only come from God. What else could have been meant.

Would you agree that the infillinf of the Holy Ghost is that Spirit Baptizing? If not this may be where our communication barrier is at.

Acts 2:38 says, Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Hebrew dictionary of the word Baptize:
NT:900
baptizo (bap-tid'-zo); from a derivative of NT:904; to immerse, submerge; to make overwhelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the N. T.) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:

KJV-Baptist, baptize, wash.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Hebrew Dictionary of the word Ghost: (the same number is represebted for Spirit, Wind as well in scripture you have presented in John as well)
NT:4100
pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4103; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:

KJV-ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5524.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So when we take the original Greek word and place it into context it shows that the Water is necessary to recieve the GIFT of the Spirit Baptism

Using the version of the Bible that you use I noticed something at the end of Acts 2:39

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call."
NIV

You can not be called unless you are already born. It would render easy application to follow then verse 38 which says Repent, and be Baptised (immersed, Submerged is going to require something to be immersed into no where does it say this is figuratively spoken. It says Technically, Derived from.

Anyway just some more simple thoughts from a simple man.

 

[Assisi]

Genez,

I think it would help if you defined ritual. Are you talking about liturgy? or tradition? or what? I don't see how asking the saints to pray for me is ritual. (Also, why would Christ ask them to pray for Him? He is God)

And frankly, I find it interesting that you talk about ritual and emotions, I have visited churches with no liturgy and their services seem to be based almost entirely on emotion. I assure you that I do NOT confuse emotional stimulation with spiritual growth. Nor do I know any Catholics who do.

Also, you say quite rightly that God is Spirit. We, however, and spirit AND matter. We will have physical bodies in the resurrection, so why should we forsake the physical now? God made us this way. Surely, it is good.

 

[sawdust]

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call."
NIV

You can not be called unless you are already born. It would render easy application to follow then verse 38 which says Repent, and be Baptised (immersed, Submerged is going to require something to be immersed into no where does it say this is figuratively spoken. It says Technically, Derived from.

Anyway just some more simple thoughts from a simple man.

But the verse states what it is they were to be immersed into ..... "the name of Jesus Christ".

Peter understood that the Lord Jesus was the Saviour and hence necessary to the world but he failed to understand (initially) that the Lord wasn't using the Law and Israel as the "depository" of salvation anymore.

Christ had fulfilled the Law and the sacrifices and the ritual. Now salvation was in Him. The gentiles no longer had to come to Israel for salvation. Now salvation was being poured out apart from the nation.

There was a whole new mindset being given to Peter. I'm no expert on this but I try to stand in Peter's shoes as it were and think ... "if I was a good Jew, what would I be thinking?" I'm sure this business with Cornelius must have been quite shocking to Pete. I know it would have been shocking to me if I was a good Jew. I would have spent a lifetime keeping myself "pure" so that the Gentiles had opportunity to be saved. For did the scripture not say that I (Israel) was to be a blessing to the Gentiles? Yet suddenly it is as if the Lord has turned around and made me (Israel) redundant (as it were). Now salvation is to be found in One man not in the nation. I would have been very confused by this and if I had not already had a mindset of "to whom else will we go Lord, you have the words of eternal life", It would have left me undone.

Now I'm not Pete and he's not me but I consider there is enough evidence in the story, as recorded in scripture, to strongly suggest Peter got caught with his pants down. There is as much reaction in the story as there is action. I usually find it helpful to note the difference when reading the scripture for I have come to see that a man of truth acts in any given situation but a man of ignorance reacts to the situation.

peace

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

That was explained to you, sir!

That is an erroneous understanding and is conflicts with the correct understanding as demonstrated by the writings of the post apostolic Church and those who were taucht directly by the Apostles. How can anyone think that they have a correct understanding if it conflicts with those who were actually there at the time?

Additionally, I pointed out the following.
Maybe your opinion is correct and maybe not. I think I'll just stick to what Jesus Himself said.

If you're wrong you could loose everything, but if we do what Jesus said, we have can't loose! Let us submit to what Jesus directed us to do. What did Jesus say about this? John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you always.

 

[Theophorus]

Peter understood that the Lord Jesus was the Saviour and hence necessary to the world but he failed to understand (initially) that the Lord wasn't using the Law and Israel as the "depository" of salvation anymore.

Christ had fulfilled the Law and the sacrifices and the ritual. Now salvation was in Him. The gentiles no longer had to come to Israel for salvation. Now salvation was being poured out apart from the nation.

There was a whole new mindset being given to Peter. I'm no expert on this but I try to stand in Peter's shoes as it were and think ... "if I was a good Jew, what would I be thinking?" I'm sure this business with Cornelius must have been quite shocking to Pete. I know it would have been shocking to me if I was a good Jew. I would have spent a lifetime keeping myself "pure" so that the Gentiles had opportunity to be saved. For did the scripture not say that I (Israel) was to be a blessing to the Gentiles? Yet suddenly it is as if the Lord has turned around and made me (Israel) redundant (as it were). Now salvation is to be found in One man not in the nation. I would have been very confused by this and if I had not already had a mindset of "to whom else will we go Lord, you have the words of eternal life", It would have left me undone.

Now I'm not Pete and he's not me but I consider there is enough evidence in the story, as recorded in scripture, to strongly suggest Peter got caught with his pants down. There is as much reaction in the story as there is action. I usually find it helpful to note the difference when reading the scripture for I have come to see that a man of truth acts in any given situation but a man of ignorance reacts to the situation.

peace

So Peter is in error.

 

[GenemZ]

That is an erroneous understanding and is conflicts with the correct understanding as demonstrated by the writings of the post apostolic Church and those who were taucht directly by the Apostles.

If that's all you got? Well, I have this.

2 Peter 2:1 niv​

"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves."​

Peter warned. And? If they were to become teachers? That meant they came out of those who were in Church. Trusted.

False teachings abounded when the Apostles were yet alive. That was the very reason so many Epistles were written! To refute the false teachings going on right under their noses!

Now, I ask you? If the false teachers were as brazen as they were while the Apostles were yet alive? Who was to stop them after they were gone!? Only one thing could.

The Written Word of God.

Did Peter write a lie? That false teachers would not 'secretly' introduce false teachings amongst his congregation after he was gone? They did. That is why only the Word of God is to be our true Guide as to what the Truth is.

How can anyone think that they have a correct understanding if it conflicts with those who were actually there at the time?

The truth was always under attack in the Church. To be blind to that is to confess not being aware of what we are confronted with in our spiritual warfare.

Name one Epistle that does not deal with a false teaching at some point? Name one? Can you? It was going on right under the watchful eyes of the Apostles. WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE! You think false teachers would be afraid to try later? They may have introduced error that some good men fel prey to, and included it in their writings.

Peter said, false teachers were going to secretly introduce heresy.

A little bit here. A little bit there. Eventually they would have the original church doing all sorts of wrong things that took the likes of Luther to break free of. (I say this, because you keep insinuating the claim that your church's teachings can never be wrong. If you did not try to present your church in this light, then I would hold my peace on the matter.)

For example: The Inquisition turned the Church into the Spirit of Islam. Conversion by the sword.

How can you say your church fathers are always free of error? Nonsense. Until I begin to see some honesty from your side, I can not trust what you say. There were certain teachings that were indefensible. Your church's teachings were not infallible. Only the Word of God is!

Additionally, I pointed out the following.
Maybe your opinion is correct and maybe not. I think I'll just stick to what Jesus Himself said.

Here is what Jesus Christ, said.

Acts 1:5 niv

"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
​

Do you believe his words?​

And, here was what Paul said years after that, and everyone was stabilized in the new church doctrine.

Ephesians 4:5

"One Lord, one faith, one baptism"
​

Do you believe his words?​

So far? You would rather believe the words of certain men in the early church, rather than believe the words of the Lord and the most spiritually advanced Apostle?

So much for what those men may have to say over my LORD's words. Apostle Paul did not see two baptisms for the Church age. And, Jesus said that water was to be replaced by the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:4-6 (New International Version)​

"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior."​

Just read what God's Word says. If we do not? Men claiming to be spiritual will fool us every time.

These know they can fool some. That's why they do what they do! For they know not all will abide in God's Word faithfully.

Grace and truth, GeneZ
​

 

[Carlos Vigil]

But the verse states what it is they were to be immersed into ..... "the name of Jesus Christ".

Are you of the opinion that one can be IMMERSED INTO THE NAME of Jesus apart from the WATER of Baptism ?
Can one be IMMERSED into "his name only", leaving out HIS CHARACTER and HIS AUTHORITY ?

Peter understood that the Lord Jesus was the Saviour and hence necessary to the world but he failed to understand (initially) that
the Lord wasn't using the Law and Israel as the "depository" of salvation anymore.

Peter understood that The Lord was using Himself and His COMMANDS with his OFFER as the depository of salvation.
COMMANDS that MUST BE OBEYED.

Christ had fulfilled the Law and the sacrifices and the ritual. Now salvation was in Him.]/b] The gentiles no longer had
to come to Israel for salvation. Now salvation was being poured out apart from the nation.

Now salvation IS IN HIM....(these are the EVIDENCES that) one is "IN CHRIST":

FAITH
BAPTISM
THE MESSAGE
FELLOWSHIP
EUCHARIST
WITNESS
CONTINUE ON COURSE.

There is as much reaction in the story as there is action. I usually find it helpful to note the difference when reading the scripture for
I have come to see that a man of truth acts in any given situation but a man of ignorance reacts to the situation.

peace

There are exceptions;

Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness to be templte by Satan.
The SPIRIT acted, Jesus reacted willingly.

In the wilderness Satan acted in this given situation...
Jesus reacted as He made CHOICES as to WHEN AND HOW to react.

After that, Jesus acted; (commanded him to leave.
and Satan reacted; ....and left,
to wait for another opportunity.

I think it is healthy to KNOW WHEN AND HOW to act.
as well as to KNOW WHEN AND HOW to react.

when to give, and when to receive.
.....being prompeted by THE WISDOM OF GOD.

 

[Schroeder]

So your saying that when he said Go and baptize them what he meant was go build a church? I may be missing something in what your saying.

The Church, big C not c. the Body. i think your not TRYING to see it.

To me this is real plain. The context is straightway I thought. Since the verse starts out &quot; Then Jesus came and spake unto them&quot; he wasnt there he had to come for this specific conversation. &quot;All Power is given unto me in heaven and in earth&quot; Declaring his majesty, declaring he is God. &quot;Go ye therefore,&quot; There fore, purpose, to do this thing, &quot;and teach all nations WHATSOEVER&quot; Whatsoever, everything, all and all, nothing left out &quot;baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of The Holy Ghost&quot; Never did I read that the Baptism of the Spirit was to be done in the name of Jesus. We do not have the authority to baptize people with the Spirit. Hence flesh is flesh Spirit is Spirit. &quot;<b>Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I have commanded you

did i say it meant SPIRIT baptism. i said it means to be JOINED INTO the Church or body of Christ. it is just the fact that SPirit BAPTISM DOES THIS. 1 COR 12:13.

I am seeking knowledge please remember that ther eis no voice infliction in written text. I am not being a smart elic I am truly seeking for a deeper understanding.

then you should learn to read a bit closer. not being smart but you have not seemed to get it close to what i am saying. IF water baptism was neccesary for salvation then Christ would have said go baptize in his name to all people making disciples and teaching. if as you contend water baptism IS needed to be saved and join the Chruch, then they couldnt make disciples UNTIL after water baptizing. so he would have said go make BY. BUT HE DID NOT SAY THAT.

 

[Schroeder]

Are you of the opinion that one can be IMMERSED INTO THE NAME of Jesus apart from the WATER of Baptism ?
Can one be IMMERSED into "his name only", leaving out HIS CHARACTER and HIS AUTHORITY ?

immersion does not NOT have to be a physical ACT. you all dont seem to get this.

Peter understood that The Lord was using Himself and His COMMANDS with his OFFER as the depository of salvation.
COMMANDS that MUST BE OBEYED.

NO Christ said through HIM ONLY. as did God. john 6:28-29. why do you keep ADDING to it. read eph 1:13-14. sums it up with no mention of water. read 1 john 3-5:9- he mentions those COMMANDS and water baptism is not one of them. you never give scriptural proof.

Now salvation IS IN HIM....(these are the EVIDENCES that) one is "IN CHRIST":

FAITH
BAPTISM
THE MESSAGE
FELLOWSHIP
EUCHARIST
WITNESS
CONTINUE ON COURSE.

yes IN HIM ONLY. Jesus actually speaks of this and i can see you have not read it or didnt think it was enough proof. i know your my FRiend if you do as i command 1 john 3-5. again your list is not scriptural. it is amazing how all these things are in scripture yet you make up more. they are even pretty much asked iin guestion form and ANSWERED yet we have these responses.

There are exceptions;

Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness to be templte by Satan.
The SPIRIT acted, Jesus reacted willingly.

In the wilderness Satan acted in this given situation...
Jesus reacted as He made CHOICES as to WHEN AND HOW to react.

After that, Jesus acted; (commanded him to leave.
and Satan reacted; ....and left,
to wait for another opportunity.

I think it is healthy to KNOW WHEN AND HOW to act.
as well as to KNOW WHEN AND HOW to react.

when to give, and when to receive.
.....being prompeted by THE WISDOM OF GOD.

How about guided by the SPirit and not the church or denom your in. Christ did not send the apostles out to start the Church or a church to rule over us and tell us how to interprete what he spoke. HE left the SPIRIT to do this for us. the Church is a guide but not THE guide. we are of a INDIVIDUAL relationship with God through Christ not a group guided by a church to God. the church is for helping each other as in people to people NOT people to the church authority. that way was let go when Christ died on the cross.

 

[GenemZ]

So Peter is in error.

Peter was more than capable to make errors. he is set before us as an example of a man needing God's mercy as to be able to keep moving ahead to overcome eventually. Yes, Peter made mistakes along the way. And, some of them were recorded in God's Word. That is why one needs to 'right handle' God's Word, or he will be ashamed.

Peter made quite a few.

Galatians 2:12-14 (New International Version)
"Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?"
​

Peter is a trophy of God's mercy. Peter never gave up on the forgiveness of God. He kept moving forward after he failed. He made mistakes as he went along, then corrected them.

In Christ, GeneZ
​

 

[Schroeder]

Then why did Jesus Himself say that you can't enter the Kingdom of God?

Maybe your opinion is correct and maybe not. I think I'll just stick to what Jesus Himself said.

If you're wrong you could loose everything, but if we do what Jesus said, we have can't loose! What did Jesus say about this? John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Grace and peace to you.

UMMMM maybe we should qoute the WHOLE passage. in verse 3 he said those who are born from ABOVE. no mention of water. verse 6 Spirit gives birth to the SPirit, no mention of water, verse 8 so it is with everyone born of the SPirit, no mention of water. funny he mentions water AFTER Nico speaks of natural birth, then jesus says FLesh gives birth to Flesh. Not that it means this in verse 5 but it could. i think it should be read and is in some translations. water EVEN the Spirit.

 

[GenemZ]

immersion does not NOT have to be a physical ACT. you all dont seem to get this.

I am not sure that they don't get this. I am not sure why they must act like they don't.


I believe they know there are lots of people out there who can not think things through. If someone who they think holds authority, tells them something is so, they will not question it. I think its because of these types that they act like its not something that can be understood. I really think some here do get it. They act like they don't as to make it look like we can not make it clear enough. Its already clear enough. I think its more politics than a desire for a pure faith in this case. Their side must keep its image of being infallible. Image is everything to some. If not? My five year old nephew can get what is being said here.

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[Schroeder]

Ok help me out here, If you have covered this Genez forgive me for I missed it and skimming back is like a nightmare forgive me can we explain the event at Cornelius' house. They recieved the baptism of the Spirit. They were then commanded to go be Baptized in Water. They had already been born hence this negates the possibility that natural birth is the baptism of water the scripture referes to. Since the word of God does not contradict itself. The born of Water must be as the scriputere says, Born of the Water and Spirit.

have i and we NOT showed you were scripture does contradict if you take this stance. Yes i have. read verse 3 verse 6 verse 8. read eph 1:13-14. read acts 10:43-.

The apostles were commanded to go, preach baptizing... Since man can not offer the Baptism of Spirit this can only come from God. What else could have been meant.

you have been shown this as well. twice at least. it is your failure to see any other use of the word baptism though we have shown other uses of it in scripture.

Would you agree that the infillinf of the Holy Ghost is that Spirit Baptizing? If not this may be where our communication barrier is at.

no you can have a filling of the Spirit outside of the spirit baptism. the filling is not litterale either in some cases. it is an extra girt from the Spirit not otherwise had or given.

Acts 2:38 says, Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
KJV

i have shown scripture that CLEARLY contradicts your interpretation of this passage. why do you NOT NOT deal with that. eph 1:13-14. acts 10:43 and others.

Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call."
NIV

read gal 3:2. what did PAul say to them. again you have to deal with your statement that scripture does not contradict.

You can not be called unless you are already born. It would render easy application to follow then verse 38 which says Repent, and be Baptised (immersed, Submerged is going to require something to be immersed into no where does it say this is figuratively spoken. It says Technically, Derived from.

Anyway just some more simple thoughts from a simple man.

no you can be called in any state of mind because it is God that calls you. scripture says you can not do the will of God unless the Spirit is in you 1 cor 2:12 rom 8:5-10 says you cant PLEASE God unless you are in the Spirit. And you can not follow what God wants with out it either. This sort of kills your idea of obeying a command of God when you dont have the SPirit in you untill after you have done what he commanded us to do. NO ONE AS DEALT WITH THIS SIMPLE CLEAR PASSAGE YET.

 

[Schroeder]

I am not sure that they don't get this. I am not sure why they must act like they don't.


I believe they know there are lots of people out there who can not think things through. If someone who they think holds authority, tells them something is so, they will not question it. I think its because of these types that they act like its not something that can be understood. I really think some here do get it. They act like they don't as to make it look like we can not make it clear enough. Its already clear enough. I think its more politics than a desire for a pure faith in this case. Their side must keep its image of being infallible. Image is everything to some. If not? My five year old nephew can get what is being said here.

In Christ, GeneZ

TRUE TRUE. I THINK IT IS A SCARY THOUGHT TO THEM THAT THEY MAY HAVE BEEN TAUGHT INCORRECTLY. like it cancles there salvation or something. my daughter as well. some are shown so clearly i dont see how they dont see it.