Mormons Keep Affiliation With Boy Scouts Despite Decision Allowing Gay Leaders

[awitch]

The sin of denying the Holy Spirit is essentially to be Judas (face-to-face know Christ and betray). So yes, Judas is also disqualified from being the Mormon scout master.

The sin of denying the Holy Spirit is NOT not knowing Christ. (pardon the double negative).

How is that determination made and how is it screened for potential troop leaders?

(BTW, I'm not saying the church doctrine is wrong and I'm not even saying the BSA should or shouldn't change their policies, I'm just trying to understand how it works)

 

[Rocmonkey]

...which the church could quite easily do if it came to it.

We could survive losing the Boy Scouts, but the Boy Scouts could not survive losing our sponsorship.

Uhh, I believe the Boy Scouts of America was around a long time before the Mormon Church got involved with them. And, if the church could have started their own club they would have.

 

[Rocmonkey]

The sin of denying the Holy Spirit is essentially to be Judas (face-to-face know Christ and betray). So yes, Judas is also disqualified from being the Mormon scout master.

The sin of denying the Holy Spirit is NOT not knowing Christ. (pardon the double negative).

Actually, the sin of denying the Holy Spirit is to say the works/words of God are those of Satan. Jesus made that clear when they attacked Him.

 

[Jane_Doe]

How is that determination made and how is it screened for potential troop leaders?

(BTW, I'm not saying the church doctrine is wrong and I'm not even saying the BSA should or shouldn't change their policies, I'm just trying to understand how it works)

Mormon congregations are small-ish (~100 adults in the pews each week), so the church leaders know everyone. Typically, before they ask you to lead scouts (or other responsibilities), they'll ask you a short series of questions (<12). One of the questions is "Do you keep the Law of Chastity?", which covers sexual sins. A simple "yes" or "no" answers it.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Uhh, I believe the Boy Scouts of America was around a long time before the Mormon Church got involved with them. And, if the church could have started their own club they would have.

BSA was founded in 1910, the same year the Mormons partnered with them. Presently, the Mormon church charters 1/3 of troops and is the largest finical contributor to BSA. All Mormon young men are automatically enrolled and scouting serves as an integral part of the youth program.

The Mormon church can always create it's own program independent of BSA (majority of Mormons people are actually in favor of this). I'm guessing that in a few years they probably will, as working with BSA is increasingly like working with Mammon.

 

[awitch]

Mormon congregations are small-ish (~100 adults in the pews each week), so the church leaders know everyone. Typically, before they ask you to lead scouts (or other responsibilities), they'll ask you a short series of questions (<12). One of the questions is "Do you keep the Law of Chastity?", which covers sexual sins. A simple "yes" or "no" answers it.

OK, but if potential LDS scouts are screened for sexual immorality, then why is a ban even necessary for the entire BSA organization?

 

[Albion]

BSA was founded in 1910, the same year the Mormons partnered with them. Presently, the Mormon church charters 1/3 of troops and is the largest finical contributor to BSA. All Mormon young men are automatically enrolled and scouting serves as an integral part of the youth program.

The Mormon church can always create it's own program independent of BSA (majority of Mormons people are actually in favor of this). I'm guessing that in a few years they probably will, as working with BSA is increasingly like working with Mammon.

I think that's the issue in a nutshell. But I can't see postponing it. Either the LDS should find an already-existing rival scouting organization to join or else start its own.

I sympathize with the point made earlier that some of these alternative organizations were started by Christian churches or people close to them and so might not see the Mormons as their equal, BUT when it comes to co-habiting with any organization that the church considers to be countenancing immorality, what kind of argument really can be considered compelling enough for the church to equivocate as apparently is being done in this case?

 

[Albion]

OK, but if potential LDS scouts are screened for sexual immorality, then why is a ban even necessary for the entire BSA organization?

Think about what you're asking. Surely you don't think that a church's youth should be encouraged to participate in (or be led into membership by their church) any association whose leaders and principles go counter to the important moral values that are held by that church.

 

[Rocmonkey]

BSA was founded in 1910, the same year the Mormons partnered with them. Presently, the Mormon church charters 1/3 of troops and is the largest finical contributor to BSA. All Mormon young men are automatically enrolled and scouting serves as an integral part of the youth program.

The Mormon church can always create it's own program independent of BSA (majority of Mormons people are actually in favor of this). I'm guessing that in a few years they probably will, as working with BSA is increasingly like working with Mammon.

I stand corrected. Thank you for the facts. That being said, the Mormon church wants to portray itself as a Christian entity and, therefore, joins Christian groups/orgs whenever it can. It is clear that they saw this (joining the BSA) as a way of getting a foothold in mainstream Christianity. Unfortunately, the early doctrines of the Church are clear that they wanted no part of Christianity and that they were a totally separate religion and not of any other belief system. One has to wonder why the LDS god, who is all-knowing and all-powerful, who never changes and who knows everything from the Beginning of Creation to the end of all things, 'changed' his mind/doctrines (again).

 

[awitch]

Think about what you're asking. Surely you don't think that a church's youth should be encouraged to participate in (or be led into membership by their church) any association whose leaders and principles go counter to the important moral values that are held by that church.

But if a troop doesn't have any LDS members or leaders, why should the ban extend to that troop?
Do you expect all the members of this private organization, being LDS or not, to conform to LDS beliefs?

 

[Jane_Doe]

I think that's the issue in a nutshell. But I can't see postponing it. Either the LDS should find an already-existing rival scouting organization to join or else start its own.

I sympathize with the point made earlier that some of these alternative organizations were started by Christian churches or people close to them and so might not see the Mormons as their equal, BUT when it comes to co-habiting with any organization that the church considers to be countenancing immorality, what kind of argument really can be considered compelling enough for the church to equivocate as apparently is being done in this case?

Personally I'm a fan of the Mormon church just founding it's own international program. (Another problem with BSA serving as integral to the youth program is it's Boy Scouts of AMERICA and the Mormon church is international). But developing such a program will take time.

 

[Albion]

But if a troop doesn't have any LDS members or leaders, why should the ban extend to that troop?
Do you expect all the members of this private organization, being LDS or not, to conform to LDS beliefs?

I don't quite follow your point here. Isn't the issue whether or not the LDS-sponsored troops will or will not continue their affiliation with the BSA?

 

[Jane_Doe]

I stand corrected. Thank you for the facts. That being said, the Mormon church wants to portray itself as a Christian entity and, therefore, joins Christian groups/orgs whenever it can. It is clear that they saw this (joining the BSA) as a way of getting a foothold in mainstream Christianity. Unfortunately, the early doctrines of the Church are clear that they wanted no part of Christianity and that they were a totally separate religion and not of any other belief system. One has to wonder why the LDS god, who is all-knowing and all-powerful, who never changes and who knows everything from the Beginning of Creation to the end of all things, 'changed' his mind/doctrines (again).

You can look for conspiracy theories all you want

And the Mormon church's involvement with BSA has always been an earthly policy thing, not doctrine.

 

[Albion]

Personally I'm a fan of the Mormon church just founding it's own international program. (Another problem with BSA serving as integral to the youth program is it's Boy Scouts of AMERICA and the Mormon church is international). But developing such a program will take time.

What would prevent the American troops from disaffiliating from BSA in short order, and then pretty much going on doing what it currently does (albeit with different kerchiefs, etc.)?

 

[Rocmonkey]

You can look for conspiracy theories all you want

And the Mormon church's involvement with BSA has always been an earthly policy thing, not doctrine.

I'm sorry but I'm not following your logic. What conspiracy theory would I be looking for? I am simply stating the obvious. But I am wondering why the LDS church would affiliate itself with a 'now' immoral organization when they Bible tells us not to join groups, orgs, churches that teach values and beliefs that go against God's word. I have long fought to keep Christian churches, mine at least, from joining interfaith groups bcuz we would be, to paraphrase the Bible, 'holding hands with the Devil' by joining/affiliating ourselves with these groups. And, the BSA, to Christianity, is now a tool of the Devil's.

 

[awitch]

I don't quite follow your point here. Isn't the issue whether or not the LDS-sponsored troops will or will not continue their affiliation with the BSA?

Yes, that's kind of where I'm going with this. Why discontinue the affiliation if LDS scouts wouldn't belong to a troop without an LDS leader, who is already screened for sexual immorality anyway?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, that's kind of where I'm going with this. Why discontinue the affiliation if LDS scouts wouldn't belong to a troop without an LDS leader, who is already screened for sexual immorality anyway?

I’m a fan of analogies:

You want to join a group promoting healthy marriages. Will you join an organization who’s leader openly beats his wife?

What about a group who’s local chapter doesn’t allow wife-beating-leaders, but it’s larger national organization endorses such leaders—leaders which your fees fund, who make policies for the whole organization, and you will be interacting with at conferences as such. Would you join such an organization?

Note: I’m not saying gay=wife-beater cause I don’t want to remotely go there. I’m just trying to help Awitch understand the mindset of why the national BSA endorsing gay leaders in a problem for local Mormon groups.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I'm sorry but I'm not following your logic. What conspiracy theory would I be looking for? I am simply stating the obvious. But I am wondering why the LDS church would affiliate itself with a 'now' immoral organization when they Bible tells us not to join groups, orgs, churches that teach values and beliefs that go against God's word. I have long fought to keep Christian churches, mine at least, from joining interfaith groups bcuz we would be, to paraphrase the Bible, 'holding hands with the Devil' by joining/affiliating ourselves with these groups. And, the BSA, to Christianity, is now a tool of the Devil's.

In 20-20 hindsight, I realize my previous comment was impolite, I apologize. The “oh they just want to join to look Christian” seemed kind of conspiracy-theory hunting to me (I've had previous bad encounters with this argument).

Back in the day, BSA was pretty in line with Mormon church values. Obviously, that has degraded in recent years, hence the push to leave. Logistically leaving isn’t quite as simple as saying “I quit” because fabricating an alternative program does take time (scouting is a integral part of the Mormon USA youth program). In the meantime the “you can ban gay leaders” is paper-thin compromise. I do think that the Mormon church will leave BSA within a few years for it’s own program (developing one takes time).

Rocmonkey, does your church sponsor a BSA troop, or have in the past? I know nationally, Baptists churches charter 3,532 scout troops (90k boys).

 

[awitch]

I’m a fan of analogies:

You want to join a group promoting healthy marriages. Will you join an organization who’s leader openly beats his wife?

What about a group who’s local chapter doesn’t allow wife-beating-leaders, but it’s larger national organization endorses such leaders—leaders which your fees fund, who make policies for the whole organization, and you will be interacting with at conferences as such. Would you join such an organization?

Note: I’m not saying gay=wife-beater cause I don’t want to remotely go there. I’m just trying to help Awitch understand the mindset of why the national BSA endorsing gay leaders in a problem for local Mormon groups.[/QUOTE]

I didn't think the BSA promotes marriage at all, and the fact that homosexuals exist doesn't automatically mean they are promoting homosexuality or marriage.

 

[Albion]

Yes, that's kind of where I'm going with this. Why discontinue the affiliation if LDS scouts wouldn't belong to a troop without an LDS leader, who is already screened for sexual immorality anyway?

Right. That's the age-old issue. It's not unlike the problem faced by people when considering their church affiliation. The local unit (congregation) may be fine, but the national organization is promoting something considered morally wrong. Which way does the conscientious person go? Does he say that he doesn't share the national's views and that's all there is to that? Or, does membership--with dues paying, the literature put out by the national, the fact that the public inevitably assumes that the local unit is in step with the national organization, etc.--recommend a break?