FireDragon76

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As far as the supposed pro-Nazi ideology of the Azov Batallion (which from my perspective its unclear whether it's just toying around with the imagery rooted in Ukraine's WWII past, or actual ideological adherence), you do realize that every Central European country with a military, especially Germany, has had problems with right wing extremism in its ranks?
 
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FireDragon76

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MLK isn't as strict a pacifist as you seem to think he was. A politician made a hackneyed MLK reference, that never happens... I'm not sure why you are labeling him a saint given that he wasn't even in you religion. (He was a protestant.) (I'm not even sure if he was a real "Dr." or if it was just a theology/ministry "doctorate". He was an actual "Jr." so at least that part is right.)

King's doctorate was real. Here's some information of King's theological education and orientation, he rejected much of the fashionable Dialectic Theology of his day which stated that God was fundamentally unknowable:

Barth, Karl

He was highly informed by the Liberal tradition of Schleiermacher or
Rauschenbusch.

It's not uncommon in the Catholic (and presumably Orthodox) tradition to consider all sorts of people saints, unofficially. These are called "folk saints". It's especially common in Latin America.

King wasn't a strict pacifist per se, like an Anabaptist or Quaker. He was influenced by Gandhi (who in turn was influenced by Tolstoy and Hindu-Jain religious thought), who saw nonviolence as a kind of tactic called Satyagraha (the force of truth). He counted on the British to be able to relate to some common moral truths ("butchering unarmed people is bad", for instance). It's obvious somebody like Putin doesn't speak the language of that kind of truth.
 
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o_mlly

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I came across this again when looking for another post and it's been niggling me. Does the above mean that in your opinion (or 'according to just war theory') if Country A declares war on Country B and A would obviously win the war, then Country B must immediately surrender?

I don't want to go all John Wayne on this, but there is the concept of preferring to die on one's feet rather than live on one's knees. And that's a threat that is required to be made to any aggressor. To promise that their certain victory will come at a cost. The very reason why the US lost in Vietnam was that the Vietnamese were prepared to suffer much greater casualties then the Americans.
The just war theory applies only to states; not to individuals. One may, without a chance of surviving, morally decide it is better to die with boots on and guns blazing but it quite different to order the whole country to do the same. Imagine ordering all your own unwilling children to their certain death. Now that would niggle me.

As to the Vietnam, if the promise is "victory at a cost" then the principle is met, i.e.,reasonable judgment of prevailing.
 
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Bradskii

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As to the Vietnam, if the promise is "victory at a cost" then the principle is met, i.e.,reasonable judgment of prevailing.

But my point is not concerned with victory. You said that if it is guaranteed that you will lose a war then 'just war theory' dictates that the state which is definately going to lose that war (and it's yet to be discussed who and how this is determined) cannot moraly continue to defend itself.

Defeat at no cost and victory at any cost are not the same. But surely a war that is morally justified must be won at any cost.
 
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o_mlly

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But my point is not concerned with victory. You said that if it is guaranteed that you will lose a war then 'just war theory' dictates that the state which is definately going to lose that war (and it's yet to be discussed who and how this is determined) cannot moraly continue to defend itself.

Defeat at no cost and victory at any cost are not the same. But surely a war that is morally justified must be won at any cost.
A reasonable judgement is not a guarantee.

Your logic is in a Catch-22 dilemma. A war waged in self-defense in which there is no reasonable judgment of prevailing is not a moral war.

All human death is evil. The act of killing an unjust aggressor is permitted as an evil iff only the good end of saving one's own life can be reasonably expected as an outcome.
 
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Hans Blaster

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As far as the supposed pro-Nazi ideology of the Azov Batallion (which from my perspective its unclear whether it's just toying around with the imagery rooted in Ukraine's WWII past, or actual ideological adherence), you do realize that every Central European country with a military, especially Germany, has had problems with right wing extremism in its ranks?

I think the biggest difference is that the Azov Battalion is a coherent unit rather than a bunch of RWEs scattered throughout (and potentially hidden) in the military ranks as they are in every European (and American) military. Here the critics have a point.

One of the aspects of the kind of ideology that groups like AB have is nationalism. Because this is Ukrainian nationalism they are motivated to fight against the Russia-backed "separatist republics". The AB was a militia that the UA govt. incorporated into their "national guard" and kept them fighting in the Donbas war for the last 8 years. (Probably to keep them in check and prevent tactical and logistical issues with the UA govt forces.)

With the AB, the key will be how they are dealt with at the end of the US/RU war. The AB itself will need to be disbanded, but perhaps its members can stay in the UA military in new units if they renounce the nazi ideology. (And let's be clear the insignia of the AB uses multiple nazi-type symbols and the AB is classified as an RWE group by trackers of such things.)

[They may not live that long. A significant portion (all?) of the AB is inside Mariupol as part of the defense of that city. Those that are captured will be hauled of to RU for show "war crimes trials". (Where Putin tries to pin *his* war crimes on them as was announced today.) They will be used to support Putin's "de-nazification" narrative.]
 
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The Liturgist

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I think the biggest difference is that the Azov Battalion is a coherent unit rather than a bunch of RWEs scattered throughout (and potentially hidden) in the military ranks as they are in every European (and American) military. Here the critics have a point.

One of the aspects of the kind of ideology that groups like AB have is nationalism. Because this is Ukrainian nationalism they are motivated to fight against the Russia-backed "separatist republics". The AB was a militia that the UA govt. incorporated into their "national guard" and kept them fighting in the Donbas war for the last 8 years. (Probably to keep them in check and prevent tactical and logistical issues with the UA govt forces.)

With the AB, the key will be how they are dealt with at the end of the US/RU war. The AB itself will need to be disbanded, but perhaps its members can stay in the UA military in new units if they renounce the nazi ideology. (And let's be clear the insignia of the AB uses multiple nazi-type symbols and the AB is classified as an RWE group by trackers of such things.)

[They may not live that long. A significant portion (all?) of the AB is inside Mariupol as part of the defense of that city. Those that are captured will be hauled of to RU for show "war crimes trials". (Where Putin tries to pin *his* war crimes on them as was announced today.) They will be used to support Putin's "de-nazification" narrative.]

The Azov Batallion are illegal irregulars, perhaps francs-tireurs; their use, like the Russian use of Islamist Chechen militants, is in and of itself criminal, and any just conclusion both groups detained and taken to appear before a Nuremberg type tribunal (the ICC probably lacks jurisdiction in Ukraine since the Ukrainian government signed but never ratified the Rome Statute, whereas Russia, like the US, withdrew its signature, which has the effect of requiring any prosecution of us or the Russians or the Ukrainians for war crimes committed on each other to occur in an ad hoc manner, like the trial of, for instance, Slobodan Milosevic.

Likewise, a case could be made for foreign supporters of these irregular forces to be charged with a war crime if the Azov Batallion is convicted and imprisoned in the Hague, an outcome which seems prudential, since in the 21st century there can be no toleration for the employment of either Nazis or Islamist extremists in military operations, just as there is no justification for, among other things, Russia to set off thermobaric weapons in populated areas.

Unfortunately prosecuting war crimes in this case would likely prove impossible due to political barriers to adjudication.
 
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Bradskii

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A reasonable judgement is not a guarantee.

Your logic is in a Catch-22 dilemma. A war waged in self-defense in which there is no reasonable judgment of prevailing is not a moral war.

All human death is evil. The act of killing an unjust aggressor is permitted as an evil iff only the good end of saving one's own life can be reasonably expected as an outcome.

But if you convince your (immoral) attackers that their presumed success will come at an enormous cost, rendering it a pyrric victory, then deaths will be avoided. But you must be prepared to back up your threat with action. At some point, the (immoral) attackers might rethink their position. Again, saving lives. Otherwise, those with the greater power will ride rough shod over the weaker.

Your theory is not much more than 'There's no point in fighting because you're going to lose'.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The Azov Batallion are illegal irregulars, perhaps francs-tireurs; their use, like the Russian use of Islamist Chechen militants, is in and of itself criminal, and any just conclusion both groups detained and taken to appear before a Nuremberg type tribunal...

Nope. As disgusting as their ideology has been, the Azov Battalion is incorporated into the Ukrainian National Guard and has been for 7.5 years. They are not "illegal". (The Chechan "Kadyrovtsy" force seems also to have been state sanctioned becoming a regiment of police ultimately under the Internal Affairs ministry of the RF.)

Neither are "irregulars" and that regular status doesn't excuse any war crimes they may commit.
 
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mindlight

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That was a long read. I will respond only to the points that stood out for me.

1) Civilian casualties remain light

This is true. The Russians are not carpet-bombing and the accusation of war crimes probably would not hold up as it requires clear intent. Most of the civilian casualties are tragic collateral damage by a careless or incompetent Russian military machine that lacks the discipline and precision of better armies and is more interested in winning this war than worrying about civilian deaths.

2) Zelensky and Biden made mistakes in the build-up to this

Definitely, the talk of NATO membership was a red line for the Russians. But it is clear that Putin has been planning this for a while and was just looking for an excuse. Putin was not looking for a compromise coming into this. His initial objective seems to have been the reunification of the triune peoples of Russia, Belorussia, and Ukraine in a single nation again. Gazprom obtained a majority share in gas containers in Germany allowing it to run down supply. This is clearly years in the planning.

On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians - Wikisource, the free online library

3) For NATO to close the skies would be an unnecessary escalation

This is clearly true as it would involve taking out Russian airbases and missile capabilities inside Russia as well as across Ukraine. It could be done but the risk is nuclear war and is not worth it for anyone. The Mig-29 issue is a case in point. They still have airfields open in West Ukraine and are even shooting down Russian aircraft even though they are flying old stuff. But sending these planes to specific choke points would be problematic and a death sentence for the pilots. Giving the Ukrainians Patriot systems right now to shoot down planes at 50000 feet where the Stingers and NLaws cannot reach would also be an escalation.

4) If Ukraine had nukes they could have stopped Russia from invading

This shows some ignorance of the Budapest Memorandum. Russia respects Ukraine's territorial integrity so long as it does not have nukes. Zelensky made a mistake in April last year when he suggested that Ukraine would develop them if not allowed into NATO.

5) The Azov battalion and Chechyan extremists are being used by both sides for the hand to hand street fighting

Nazis are now only a minority of the Azov recruitment but there is still an influence. They are an effective fighting unit so better on Ukraine's side than not at this difficult time. Also, they have been fighting Russians for much of the last decade in the Donbas and now in Mariupol. If these guys want to go head to head, then I guess they could wipe each other out. Maybe the world would not miss them as much as other soldiers.

6) A compromise is probably the best way to end this

I agree and the concession of the Donbas, recognition of Crimea, saying they will not join NATO and maybe the land bridge to the Crimea look like being at the top of the PLan B Russian concession list. But the Ukrainians increasingly believe they can win this outright. I think they are wrong and this will come down to a compromise. With German and general European remilitarisation the EU may adopt a security dimension and welcome Ukraine in. This would be painful and costly for the EU as Ukraine is massively corrupt and undeveloped and would require major rebuilding costs also. But it might be a compromise that could solidify the borders once and for all. Putin has not yet reached the point where he understands that a compromise is his only way out though yet.

7) We should support neither side because both are wrong in some way.

Noone is righteous not even one. But I am 80-20 with Ukraine on this one. They were invaded and they are the victim here. Russia's action is illegal and its historical case is not enough to undermine the basic free will choice of the nation they have invaded to set its own path to the future.
 
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FireDragon76

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That was a long read. I will respond only to the points that stood out for me.

1) Civilian casualties remain light

This is true. The Russians are not carpet-bombing and the accusation of war crimes probably would not hold up as it requires clear intent. Most of the civilian casualties are tragic collateral damage by a careless or incompetent Russian military machine that lacks the discipline and precision of better armies and is more interested in winning this war than worrying about civilian deaths.

Intentionally engaging in attacks that cause disproportionate casualties and damage to civilians is considered a war crime (eg., killing hundreds of people in a city with an artillery strike to get at a few hypothetical insurgents). Combatants are supposed to take care to minimize collateral damage.

In addition, wars of aggression and crimes against peace themselves are considered war crimes.
 
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mindlight

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Intentionally engaging in attacks that cause disproportionate casualties and damage to civilians is considered a war crime (eg., killing hundreds of people in a city with an artillery strike to get at a few hypothetical insurgents). Combatants are supposed to take care to minimize collateral damage.

In addition, wars of aggression and crimes against peace themselves are considered war crimes.

This is urban warfare. The problem here is that they are fighting at all and the fact of invasion, not that people die in war, we already know that is just what happens. If someone fires from an apartment block and the whole thing is taken down by a missile then civilians die but the Russians were responding to the live fire. There are so many examples of Americans doing this in drone strikes in Afghanistan and Iraq I am not sure America can really wag a finger at this and no drone operators or bomber pilots have been tried as if this were a war crime. It would be better for the civilians to leave the besieged towns and any attempts to impede that evacuation should be held to account.

By historic Russian standards, this is not civilian genocide and it is misreporting to suggest that it is. Many of the pictures of burning apartment blocks show a great many buildings around them completely untouched. As the fighting intensifies this will be more and more a Faluja style situation where the non-combatants should just leave. It is tragic and horrible but just a fact of war.
 
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o_mlly

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But if you convince your (immoral) attackers that their presumed success will come at an enormous cost, rendering it a pyrric victory, then deaths will be avoided. But you must be prepared to back up your threat with action. At some point, the (immoral) attackers might rethink their position. Again, saving lives. Otherwise, those with the greater power will ride rough shod over the weaker.

Your theory is not much more than 'There's no point in fighting because you're going to lose'.
A lot of "ifs" "mights" and "buts" in this post.

You haven't thought this through, have you? Your logic mimics the old joke, "If the queen had ... she'd be king." Or like the romantic woman who, ignoring the facts, hopes beyond hope that if I marry this alcoholic then my love will change him (converted to, "If I just act scary enough then the one who unjustly attacks me will go away.") Facing the facts, not the fantasies, the leaders make a judgement on the reasonable (root word, "reason") probability of success.

And, by the way, it's not my theory. The just war theory comes from the minds of the great thinkers of the past two millennia. I think I'll go with that rather than the fanciful musing of a John Wayne wannabe. You, of course, may reject the theory but not the thinking that underlies its truth.
 
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This is urban warfare. The problem here is that they are fighting at all and the fact of invasion, not that people die in war, we already know that is just what happens. If someone fires from an apartment block and the whole thing is taken down by a missile then civilians die but the Russians were responding to the live fire. There are so many examples of Americans doing this in drone strikes in Afghanistan and Iraq I am not sure America can really wag a finger at this and no drone operators or bomber pilots have been tried as if this were a war crime. It would be better for the civilians to leave the besieged towns and any attempts to impede that evacuation should be held to account.

By historic Russian standards, this is not civilian genocide and it is misreporting to suggest that it is. Many of the pictures of burning apartment blocks show a great many buildings around them completely untouched. As the fighting intensifies this will be more and more a Faluja style situation where the non-combatants should just leave. It is tragic and horrible but just a fact of war.

Pretty balanced Mindlight pretty balanced.
 
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A_Thinker

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But if you convince your (immoral) attackers that their presumed success will come at an enormous cost, rendering it a pyrric victory, then deaths will be avoided. But you must be prepared to back up your threat with action. At some point, the (immoral) attackers might rethink their position. Again, saving lives. Otherwise, those with the greater power will ride rough shod over the weaker.

Your theory is not much more than 'There's no point in fighting because you're going to lose'.
Bullies, when resisted, often lose heart ...
 
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Bradskii

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A lot of "ifs" "mights" and "buts" in this post.

Hard to determine a just war without using them.

Just war theory requires that the defending country make a prudential judgement that it can prevail in the conflict.

'What if we prevail...we might. But then we might not.'

Are you saying there's no debate as regards the decision? And is that specific clause (as above) the theory of great thinkers of the last two millenium? Or a more recent addition by the Catholic Church (i.e catechism 2309). Aquinas, for example, doesn't mention it as far as I can see.

And when is defeat to be accepted? The French surrendered to the Germans in June 1940. Does that mean the Maquis were immoral terrorists? Was Churchill demanding an immoral position when he said that the British should fight in the hills if Britain was lost?

There are many aspects regarding the concept of just war. Most of which I would agree. And there are no end of examples when a country has surrendered in the face of overwhelming forces. That's quite often a practical decision. Especially if there is a danger of non combatants being killed. But that's not your position.
 
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The Liturgist

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That was a long read. I will respond only to the points that stood out for me.

1) Civilian casualties remain light

This is true. The Russians are not carpet-bombing and the accusation of war crimes probably would not hold up as it requires clear intent. Most of the civilian casualties are tragic collateral damage by a careless or incompetent Russian military machine that lacks the discipline and precision of better armies and is more interested in winning this war than worrying about civilian deaths.

2) Zelensky and Biden made mistakes in the build-up to this

Definitely, the talk of NATO membership was a red line for the Russians. But it is clear that Putin has been planning this for a while and was just looking for an excuse. Putin was not looking for a compromise coming into this. His initial objective seems to have been the reunification of the triune peoples of Russia, Belorussia, and Ukraine in a single nation again. Gazprom obtained a majority share in gas containers in Germany allowing it to run down supply. This is clearly years in the planning.

On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians - Wikisource, the free online library

3) For NATO to close the skies would be an unnecessary escalation

This is clearly true as it would involve taking out Russian airbases and missile capabilities inside Russia as well as across Ukraine. It could be done but the risk is nuclear war and is not worth it for anyone. The Mig-29 issue is a case in point. They still have airfields open in West Ukraine and are even shooting down Russian aircraft even though they are flying old stuff. But sending these planes to specific choke points would be problematic and a death sentence for the pilots. Giving the Ukrainians Patriot systems right now to shoot down planes at 50000 feet where the Stingers and NLaws cannot reach would also be an escalation.

4) If Ukraine had nukes they could have stopped Russia from invading

This shows some ignorance of the Budapest Memorandum. Russia respects Ukraine's territorial integrity so long as it does not have nukes. Zelensky made a mistake in April last year when he suggested that Ukraine would develop them if not allowed into NATO.

5) The Azov battalion and Chechyan extremists are being used by both sides for the hand to hand street fighting

Nazis are now only a minority of the Azov recruitment but there is still an influence. They are an effective fighting unit so better on Ukraine's side than not at this difficult time. Also, they have been fighting Russians for much of the last decade in the Donbas and now in Mariupol. If these guys want to go head to head, then I guess they could wipe each other out. Maybe the world would not miss them as much as other soldiers.

6) A compromise is probably the best way to end this

I agree and the concession of the Donbas, recognition of Crimea, saying they will not join NATO and maybe the land bridge to the Crimea look like being at the top of the PLan B Russian concession list. But the Ukrainians increasingly believe they can win this outright. I think they are wrong and this will come down to a compromise. With German and general European remilitarisation the EU may adopt a security dimension and welcome Ukraine in. This would be painful and costly for the EU as Ukraine is massively corrupt and undeveloped and would require major rebuilding costs also. But it might be a compromise that could solidify the borders once and for all. Putin has not yet reached the point where he understands that a compromise is his only way out though yet.

7) We should support neither side because both are wrong in some way.

Noone is righteous not even one. But I am 80-20 with Ukraine on this one. They were invaded and they are the victim here. Russia's action is illegal and its historical case is not enough to undermine the basic free will choice of the nation they have invaded to set its own path to the future.

This strikes me as a very balanced assessment of the situation which broadly reflects my views.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think you have misread my posts as the suggestion you infer is in contradiction to the point being made.

To justify a war in just war theory, the defending country must reasonably judge that in conducting the war, the defending country will prevail against the unjust aggressor. I believe that Putin knows the just war theory quite well. While he does not subscribe to it, he relies on the hope that the U.S. will.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, by the way.
 
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