Zechariah 11

[gwynedd1]

Here is Zecharia 11.

1: Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars!
2: Wail, O cypress, for the cedar has fallen, for the glorious trees are ruined! Wail, oaks of Bashan, for the thick forest has been felled!
3: Hark, the wail of the shepherds, for their glory is despoiled! Hark, the roar of the lions, for the jungle of the Jordan is laid waste!
4: Thus said the LORD my God: "Become shepherd of the flock doomed to slaughter.
5: Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished; and those who sell them say, `Blessed be the LORD, I have become rich'; and their own shepherds have no pity on them.
6: For I will no longer have pity on the inhabitants of this land, says the LORD. Lo, I will cause men to fall each into the hand of his shepherd, and each into the hand of his king; and they shall crush the earth, and I will deliver none from their hand."
7: So I became the shepherd of the flock doomed to be slain for those who trafficked in the sheep. And I took two staffs; one I named Grace, the other I named Union. And I tended the sheep.
8: In one month I destroyed the three shepherds. But I became impatient with them, and they also detested me.
9: So I said, "I will not be your shepherd. What is to die, let it die; what is to be destroyed, let it be destroyed; and let those that are left devour the flesh of one another."
10: And I took my staff Grace, and I broke it, annulling the covenant which I had made with all the peoples.
11: So it was annulled on that day, and the traffickers in the sheep, who were watching me, knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12: Then I said to them, "If it seems right to you, give me my wages; but if not, keep them." And they weighed out as my wages thirty shekels of silver.
13: Then the LORD said to me, "Cast it into the treasury" -- the lordly price at which I was paid off by them. So I took the thirty shekels of silver and cast them into the treasury in the house of the LORD.
14: Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
15: Then the LORD said to me, "Take once more the implements of a worthless shepherd.
16: For lo, I am raising up in the land a shepherd who does not care for the perishing, or seek the wandering, or heal the maimed, or nourish the sound, but devours the flesh of the fat ones, tearing off even their hoofs.
17: Woe to my worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword smite his arm and his right eye! Let his arm be wholly withered, his right eye utterly blinded!"

It is interesting to note that a Talmud reference also considers verse 1 and 2 to be the cedar doors of the temple .

The Jerusalem Talmud states:
"Said Rabban Yohanan Ben Zakkai to the Temple, 'O Temple, why do you frighten us? We know that you will end up destroyed. For it has been said, 'Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars' " (Zechariah 11:1)' (Sota 6:3).

It appears likely this catastrophy includes the destruction of the temple. The materials may be found in Kings for Solomon's which Herods temple was patterned after.
Verse 3 also speaks of the land being detroyed. The jungle of the Jordon was the delta that was the most fertile area of the time.
Verse 4 means they are doomed. So no rescue from God and this it is not the Day of the Lord event.
Verse 5 and 6 speak of the betrayal of leaders to the people that follow them.
Verse 7 and 8 talk of three sherpards. I think I know who these might be. There were 3 fueding factions during the siege of Jerusalem. It can be said that they did more damage to each other than the Romans. It is true that their leaders destroyed them.


Here is text from Josephus Wars of the Jews Book 5 chapter 1

4. And now there were three treacherous factions in the city, the one parted from the other. Eleazar and his party, that kept the sacred first-fruits, came against John in their cups. Those that were with John plundered the populace, and went out with zeal against Simon. This Simon had his supply of provisions from the city, in opposition to the seditious. When, therefore, John was assaulted on both sides, he made his men turn about, throwing his darts upon those citizens that came up against him, from the cloisters he had in his possession, while he opposed those that attacked him from the temple by his engines of war. And if at any time he was freed from those that were above him, which happened frequently, from their being drunk and tired, he sallied out with a great number upon Simon and his party; and this he did always in such parts of the city as he could come at, till he set on fire those houses that were full of corn, and of all other provisions. (4) The same thing was done by Simon, when, upon the other's retreat, he attacked the city also; as if they had, on purpose, done it to serve the Romans, by destroying what the city had laid up against the siege, and by thus cutting off the nerves of their own power. Accordingly, it so came to pass, that all the places that were about the temple were burnt down, and were become an intermediate desert space, ready for fighting on both sides of it; and that almost all that corn was burnt, which would have been sufficient for a siege of many years. So they were taken by the means of the famine, which it was impossible they should have been, unless they had thus prepared the way for it by this procedure.

It would be a good argument for the 3 shepards. It is also true the during the siege people ate their own children as in verse 9.
Verse 10 then turns to the covenant. The only one that fits in a temple and Christ context is the fulfilment of the law. In verse 11 it was annulled.
Verse 12 and 13 is an obvious reference to Christ. Christ had said he will leave Jerusalem desolate.

37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!
38: Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate.
39: For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

Verse 14 then disolves the relationship of Judah and Israel. Thus my statement that Israel and Judah are no longer related in a significant way.

Verse 15,16 and 17 probably referes to after the 3 factions desolved and what leadership was left before the end.


This is what Josephus had to say about this war.

1. (1) WHEREAS the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that ever were heard of; both of those wherein cities have fought against cities, or nations against nations; while some men who were not concerned in the affairs themselves have gotten together vain and contradictory stories by hearsay, and have written them down after a sophistical manner; and while those that were there present have given false accounts of things, and this either out of a humor of flattery to the Romans, or of hatred towards the Jews; and while their writings contain sometimes accusations, and sometimes encomiums, but no where the accurate truth of the facts; I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians; (2) Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work].

A good fit for Jacobs trouble in Daniel.

Daniel 12

1: "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book.

That is my attempt at Zecharia 11 as promised in another post.

 

[JDS]

Gwynedd1

Josephus and other historians are not inspired and history that does not fulfill ALL the elements of the prophecy is not a fulfillment of the prophecy according to God's own directive. All the prophecy must be fulfilled minutely, point by point and exactly as it is given. If it is given in an apocalyptic style, then one must study the symbols to see what God intends them to mean. In the case of trees, and cedars, and forests in Ze 11, he means men of different rank and the people at large. I don't know that Lebanon had anything to do with the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman Titus in AD 70. I do know that the prophecy is not fulfilled in one single time frame but is a prophecy over a long period of time. The 30 pieces of silver, for instance, has been cited as a reference to the price of the betrayal by Judas. I do not know of anyone so far that appeared on the pages of history that one could cite as a foolish shepherd that fits the description given us in the last two verses of Chapter 11.

16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

Other passage in Scripture adds light on this idol shepherd and who he is.

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Re 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast,……. This is how he received his wounds mentioned in Ze 11 but they are all the same man.

All these things have not been fulfilled as God requires them to be fulfilled.

De 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Zechariah is a post exilic prophet. He wrote in 520 BC when Darius, the Mede controlled Palestine. This was 200 years after the Northern kingdom, sometimes referred to as Ephraim, had been carried to Assyria and had ceased to exist as a nation yet in chapter 10 of Zechariah’s prophecy, he says these words of Ephraim in the future tense;

1 Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field. 2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd. 3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle. 4 Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together. 5 And they shall be as mighty men, which tread down their enemies in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded. 6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I WILL SAVE THE HOUSE OF JOSEPH, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them. 7 And they of EPHRAIM shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. 8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. 9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. 10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.

Now, I wonder if the same hermeneutic will be used for this chapter as was used for chapter 11? I doubt it!
There has never been a time in history when Ephraim has been gathered from Assyria where she was carried nor the men of Judah from where they migrated with Jeremiah after the Babylonian captivity. God says he will make a highway between those two places during the millennium and bring his people back.

Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

It is a bad thing for one to put more confidence in the words of ungodly historians and philosophers than the words of the living God, IMO.

I will address your particular points later.

JDS

 

[gwynedd1]

Gwynedd1

Josephus and other historians are not inspired and history that does not fulfill ALL the elements of the prophecy is not a fulfillment of the prophecy according to God's own directive
...
I do not know of anyone so far that appeared on the pages of history that one could cite as a foolish shepherd that fits the description given us in the last two verses of Chapter 11.

So it is heads you win and tails I lose on history. When I use historical references its questionable but not when you do.

 

[JDS]

So it is heads you win and tails I lose on history. When I use historical references its questionable but not when you do.

No,
I did not say there was not value in studying history. I said historians and philosophers were not inspired and cannot trump the word of God.
It just seems to me that you are getting your theology from these web-sites you are linking us to instead of a careful study of the Scriptures. That is not wise, IMO.

JDS

 

[gwynedd1]

No,
I did not say there was not value in studying history. I said historians and philosophers were not inspired and cannot trump the word of God.
It just seems to me that you are getting your theology from these web-sites you are linking us to instead of a careful study of the Scriptures. That is not wise, IMO.

JDS

You were taking exception to my posts of only scripture before.

as you said here.

That in itself has been asserted but never explained. In fact, I see a failure to properly grasp the nature of the covenants, along with weak attempts at proof-texting.

What you are really saying is you want me to agree with you
. You would need to show me where I trumped the word of God with history because I do not recall doing so.

Did you ever say what the covenant was in Zecharia 11?

 

[gwynedd1]

Gwynedd1

1 Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field. 2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd. 3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle. 4 Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together. 5 And they shall be as mighty men, which tread down their enemies in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded. 6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I WILL SAVE THE HOUSE OF JOSEPH, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them. 7 And they of EPHRAIM shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD. 8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. 9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again. 10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.

Now, I wonder if the same hermeneutic will be used for this chapter as was used for chapter 11? I doubt it!
There has never been a time in history when Ephraim has been gathered from Assyria where she was carried nor the men of Judah from where they migrated with Jeremiah after the Babylonian captivity. God says he will make a highway between those two places during the millennium and bring his people back.

JDS

So you wonder if I use the same method here? Yes I do. You method appears to be "since I don't know of it it never happened". What you are asking is one of the most difficult questions on the subject. That is why they are often called the 10 lost tribes. As you state history is not perfect and the record is blurred in many areas.
As to Joseph, Ephraim and the house of Israel we have not only a problem of seeing this event historically but also ever observing it as being fulfilled in the future because we don't really know who they are. Samaritans maybe? Perhaps they were restored for a time and we m missed it? I am trying to work from reasonable theories here.
I can tell you one thing. I have read enough histroy to know that there is in nearly every generation a cohort that thinks that their time is special and that prophesy that has existed for a 1000 years is imminent to their generation. "It has not happened yet but any day now". Dispensationalists could be correct but then they have already been wrong. The Jehovah's Witnesses needed to update "the end" several times. Take your pick. The end of the first Millenium, 1988, Oliver Cromwell?
Only God knows what happened to the lost tribes amd maybe it will be in the future. Who knows? We understand some parts of the Bible better than others and so it is with Zechariah.

 

[JDS]

gwynedd1,

There is not much hope in reconciling our different opinions on Ze 11 because of our differences in how we view the language of the Scriptures and what we believe are the ends to which God is attemptng to achieve through his historical dealings with mankind. I am really not sure what you think those ends are, but I think he is restoring the same order in heaven and earth through the last Adam as he intended through the first Adam. That would include a kingdom over all the earth. The language of the OT prophetic Scriptures as it deals with God's promised Messiah is consistent with that idea and the language of Christ when he came the first time is consistent with that idea (Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.), and when he comes again (Re 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.) and the last two chapters of the Bible when all things are said finally to be new and, it seems to me to have all the elements of the earth before the fall, is consistent with that idea. Isarael is the key for God to accomplish those ends!
When I deal with someone like you who does not believe the words of the Bible and kingdom does not mean kingdom, Israel does not mean Israel, nations does not mean nations, Jerusalem does not mean Jerusalem, earth does not mean earth, Epharaim in Ze 10 does not mean the 10 northern tribes of Israel, I am usually frustrated and eventually count it counterproductive to continue.

Zechariah is a prophecy of hope for Israel. It is written after the 70 years captivity when the remnant has returned to the land. A remnant only, though many remain scattered in the nations, particularly Assyria and Egypt. Israel is dealt with from that captivity until the regathering of all the people as has been before prophecied by Ezekial and others, and the establishment of the King in Jerusalem who will rule all the earth from there. See Ze 14;

So, this prophetic book has a broad scope. Some of the prophecies concern those who were contemporary with Zechariah and others with those in the future. This book tells me that God knows how to accomplish his ends in spite of the disobedience of his people, and that he will accomplish them.

As for the covenant in Ze 11, the answer can be found in the context but I will give it to you. God had promised he would reunite the two kingdoms, Ephraim and Judah and they would be one kingdom again. Ephraim will not be jealous against Judah and there will not be infighting among the tribes. It has nothing to do with the Mosaic covenant in this context. It could be a reference to the new covenant where only the poor of the flock enjoyed the spiritual blessings of the covenant. See this chapter;

15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these? 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes. 21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: 22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: 23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore

The sanctuary will be the millennial temple described by Ezekial beginning in chapter 40 to the end of his book. Oh, I forgot, you don't believe in a millennial temple!

Now, the context. The promise goes to Ephraim in chapter 10 that he would not hold past sins against them and would bring them back.

Chater 11;

Zec 11:7 And I will feed the flock of slaughter, [even] you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.

The poor of the flock (we are told earlier Judah is the flock) is the remnant according to the election of grace explained by Paul in Ro 11.

The two staves; Beauty (grace) the first coming of Christ.

10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it (The breaking of it) was the word of the LORD.

This speaks of Christ being rejected and cut off. (See the very next thing that is said) - 12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

This was his price!

Now Bands;

Zec 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, [even] Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

This is what is said about it. It is the breaking of the fellowship between Juah and Israel. This would have been established if Israel would have received the grace of God in Christ but since they did not, it will be achieved later at his second coming.

The next thing mentioned is the idol shepherd whom they will receive.

The next chapters deal with God establishing his authority over all nations from his throne in Jerusalem.

Forgive me if my points are not as clear as they could be. I am just writing this quickly because my time here today is limited.

JDS

 

[gwynedd1]

gwynedd1,


When I deal with someone like you who does not believe the words of the Bible and kingdom does not mean kingdom, Israel does not mean Israel, nations does not mean nations, Jerusalem does not mean Jerusalem, earth does not mean earth, Epharaim in Ze 10 does not mean the 10 northern tribes of Israel, I am usually frustrated and eventually count it counterproductive to continue.

JDS

Sir this is your counterproductivty. I become very angry with your proclivity express my posts as if you paraphrase them correctly. You don't. That is why you fail to show the quote because it would expose what you are doing. You do not provide a single example of this and yet you freely accuse me. You do not have a humble tone at all in you posts and not just with me. I find them very combative and filled with condesention. That is a shame.

It is also ironic because I find that is what is done by Dispensationalist arguments.

Daniel 12
1: "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book.

That is quoted ALL the time as an example of "end time" when it is clearly a nation.
Zechariah make no mention of Israel AFTER chapter 10 and in chapter 11 it states

Zech 11
14: Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

After that its all Judah. Is Judah Judah or not? Is Jerusalem Jerusalem the capital of Judah or not?


Now as to some of the arguements for Dispensationalism I cannot prove them right or wrong and are basically just a theory. Sometimes I wonder is Ezekiel is the only book some people read. I never see such people post anything in Hebrews in my experience.
I think I have good theories with biblical and extra biblical sources but I do not claim that they are perfect.
What is absolutely true is the focus of Dispensationalism is completly irrelavent to our time. According to its own theory, we wil not be here. Israel is not even remotely Godly today and I can provide references everywhere that Jews are not even remotely universally good or to be supported unequivocally. Our reality is Christ today and if a Jew does not accept him he will be lost like everyone else.

Please try to honor my wishes that you provide my quotes if you comment on them. If you continue to incorrectly paraphrase me and refere to me as "people like me" I will lose interest as I am sure others will.

 

[JDS]

You,
Sir this is your counterproductivty. I become very angry with your proclivity express my posts as if you paraphrase them correctly. You don't. That is why you fail to show the quote because it would expose what you are doing. You do not provide a single example of this and yet you freely accuse me. You do not have a humble tone at all in you posts and not just with me. I find them very combative and filled with condesention. That is a shame.


Me,
I am sorry, sir, if I have offended you. I do not wish to do so. I guess I did not realize that one was required to post the previous post when responding conversationally with the same poster. I was generally dealing with your last post. That is something I can correct.

You,
It is also ironic because I find that is what is done by Dispensationalist arguments.

Quote:
Daniel 12
1: "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book.
That is quoted ALL the time as an example of "end time" when it is clearly a nation.
Zechariah make no mention of Israel AFTER chapter 10 and in chapter 11 it states

Me,
I can’t recall having posted Da 12:1 for any points I was making. I cannot understand though how his people were delivered by the Macabee’s (If that was your point in another thread) but limited to those whose names were written in the book of life. And lest you think I am trying to be confrontational, I am merely saying I do not understand it.

Quote
Zechariah make no mention of Israel AFTER chapter 10 and in chapter 11 it states

He does in chapter 12, verse 1 in the KJV.

You

Quote:
Zech 11
14: Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
After that its all Judah. Is Judah Judah or not? Is Jerusalem Jerusalem the capital of Judah or not?

Me
Judah is Judah and Jerusalem is Jerusalem but Jerusalem is the capital of Israel but it is in Judah in the prophecy of Zechariah.



you

Now as to some of the arguements for Dispensationalism I cannot prove them right or wrong and are basically just a theory. Sometimes I wonder is Ezekiel is the only book some people read. I never see such people post anything in Hebrews in my experience.

Me

What is a theory to one is a conviction for another.




You

I think I have good theories with biblical and extra biblical sources but I do not claim that they are perfect.
What is absolutely true is the focus of Dispensationalism is completly irrelavent to our time. According to its own theory, we wil not be here. Israel is not even remotely Godly today and I can provide references everywhere that Jews are not even remotely universally good or to be supported unequivocally.

Me

No one has claimed that Israel, the nation, is Godly although there are some saved in the nation that are Godly. The point is made in the prophecies of Scriptures that God is going to create a climate during which he will turn their hearts to himself. The rest will be destroyed. Hence your 2 out of 3 lost in the land of Israel.
I doubt you could have been considered godly before God convicted your heart and you were saved. I know I wasn’t.


You
Our reality is Christ today and if a Jew does not accept him he will be lost like everyone else.

Me

Amen!


You
Please try to honor my wishes that you provide my quotes if you comment on them. If you continue to incorrectly paraphrase me and refere to me as "people like me" I will lose interest as I am sure others will.

I can do that.

Thanks, JDS

 

[gwynedd1]

You,

Me,
I can’t recall having posted Da 12:1 for any points I was making. I cannot understand though how his people were delivered by the Macabee’s (If that was your point in another thread) but limited to those whose names were written in the book of life. And lest you think I am trying to be confrontational, I am merely saying I do not understand it.

I do not consider chapter 12 Macabee's . I consider chapter 11 as related. As to you posting 12:1 I had not said you did.

Quote
Zechariah make no mention of Israel AFTER chapter 10 and in chapter 11 it states

He does in chapter 12, verse 1 in the KJV.

Quite literally it does in verse one. Judah is Israel but Israel is not Judah. Concerning Israel from Zech 12 on only Judah remains as a topic that is the context.

You
Quote:
Zech 11
14: Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
After that its all Judah. Is Judah Judah or not? Is Jerusalem Jerusalem the capital of Judah or not?

Me
Judah is Judah and Jerusalem is Jerusalem but Jerusalem is the capital of Israel but it is in Judah in the prophecy of Zechariah.

Is it unreasonable for me to consider that it is not inclusive of Israel after that union was stated as broken in chapter 11?

you

Now as to some of the arguements for Dispensationalism I cannot prove them right or wrong and are basically just a theory. Sometimes I wonder is Ezekiel is the only book some people read. I never see such people post anything in Hebrews in my experience.

Me

What is a theory to one is a conviction for another.

In theory...
Sorry, I could not resist.

You

I think I have good theories with biblical and extra biblical sources but I do not claim that they are perfect.
What is absolutely true is the focus of Dispensationalism is completly irrelavent to our time. According to its own theory, we wil not be here. Israel is not even remotely Godly today and I can provide references everywhere that Jews are not even remotely universally good or to be supported unequivocally.

Me

No one has claimed that Israel, the nation, is Godly although there are some saved in the nation that are Godly. The point is made in the prophecies of Scriptures that God is going to create a climate during which he will turn their hearts to himself. The rest will be destroyed. Hence your 2 out of 3 lost in the land of Israel.
I doubt you could have been considered godly before God convicted your heart and you were saved. I know I wasn’t.

Again I entered the fray so to speak because there are many Zionist Christians that do wrecklessly "support" Israel as if they are God's people today. If they were then there would be no need to take "ungodliness from Jacob". The specific generation is vastly important. They now work against us. I also find that it is in Dispensationalist circles that even if aspects of it are true make a complete mess of it with one out of context verse after another. When it boils down to it, it appears to me Israel has a role in the future. I don't have a problem with that. However not the old covenant IMHO.

You
Our reality is Christ today and if a Jew does not accept him he will be lost like everyone else.

Me

Amen!



You
Please try to honor my wishes that you provide my quotes if you comment on them. If you continue to incorrectly paraphrase me and refere to me as "people like me" I will lose interest as I am sure others will.

I can do that.

Thanks, JDS

Now that sounds like someone who is not trying to win an argument and is trying to express what they see as the truth. That is most welcome.

 

[billychum]

Great post, so much can be learned here.
Thanks

Billy <><

 

[JDS]

Gwynedd1,

You
Quote:
Zech 11
14: Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
After that its all Judah. Is Judah Judah or not? Is Jerusalem Jerusalem the capital of Judah or not?

Me
Judah is Judah and Jerusalem is Jerusalem but Jerusalem is the capital of Israel but it is in Judah in the prophecy of Zechariah.

You,

Is it unreasonable for me to consider that it is not inclusive of Israel after that union was stated as broken in chapter 11?

ME,
Yes, because it is obvious the time frame for this prohecy is in the context of the coming of Christ the first time if one believes the 30 pieces of silver and the price of the first staff "Beauty" is a clear reference to the Lord. It is quoted in the NT as being so!

I think the breaking of "bands' is fulfilled in the events of AD 70. Certainly it was after the cutting asunder of "beauty". It is interesting to me that now none of Israel knows what tribe they are from since all the geneological records were kept in the temple and were destroyed by the Roman army under Titus in AD 70, or so I'm told.

The prophecies concerning Ephraim in chapter 10 some 200 years after their existence as a nation clearly await their fulfillment in a time yet future even in this late hour. The prophecies of God must come to pass and many of these in Zechariah have not and Zechariah was a prophet of God speaking his words.

You,

Again I entered the fray so to speak because there are many Zionist Christians that do wrecklessly "support" Israel as if they are God's people today. If they were then there would be no need to take "ungodliness from Jacob". The specific generation is vastly important. They now work against us. I also find that it is in Dispensationalist circles that even if aspects of it are true make a complete mess of it with one out of context verse after another. When it boils down to it, it appears to me Israel has a role in the future. I don't have a problem with that. However not the old covenant IMHO.

ME,

Dispensationalists are thankful that God keeps his promises so minutely as is demonstrated in and by this nation Israel and we definitely support Israel's right to exist in the land of Palestine. That is not to say we support all and everything Israel does. We know from reading the Scriptures that Israel is the key to Bible prophecy and is the reason for the mad attempts by Satan to destroy this people all through the centuries. If Israel can be illiminated, then God's end time prophecies can not be realized.

On your note that dispensationalists continually take verses out of context, would you mind posting a couple of examples for us? Thanks!

Israel will be restored, all 12 tribes because God must honor his word. He has made 4 unconditional covenants with them and in those covenants he has made national and family promises that he has made with no one else. Many of those promises have not been realized yet, but do not worry, they will be at some point very soon.

Thanks, JDS

 

[gwynedd1]

Gwynedd1,

You
Quote:
Zech 11
14: Then I broke my second staff Union, annulling the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
After that its all Judah. Is Judah Judah or not? Is Jerusalem Jerusalem the capital of Judah or not?

Me
Judah is Judah and Jerusalem is Jerusalem but Jerusalem is the capital of Israel but it is in Judah in the prophecy of Zechariah.

I would expect to see Israel or Ephraim not just Judah. So we are going to differ.

You,

Is it unreasonable for me to consider that it is not inclusive of Israel after that union was stated as broken in chapter 11?

ME,
Yes, because it is obvious the time frame for this prohecy is in the context of the coming of Christ the first time if one believes the 30 pieces of silver and the price of the first staff "Beauty" is a clear reference to the Lord. It is quoted in the NT as being so!

That is what I said as well but I see no reason that I should consider them unified in Zech12-14.

I think the breaking of "bands' is fulfilled in the events of AD 70. Certainly it was after the cutting asunder of "beauty". It is interesting to me that now none of Israel knows what tribe they are from since all the geneological records were kept in the temple and were destroyed by the Roman army under Titus in AD 70, or so I'm told.


The prophecies concerning Ephraim in chapter 10 some 200 years after their existence as a nation clearly await their fulfillment in a time yet future even in this late hour. The prophecies of God must come to pass and many of these in Zechariah have not and Zechariah was a prophet of God speaking his words.

No time in history? Since you inpired me to search this aspect... Samaritans had a rival temple at mount Gerizim . They think they are Israelites and it is quite credible. They are few today but they were not during the gap between the exile and Rome as in the Greek kingdoms. If an argument is made that they are not then we would need to look at the Ashkenazi and Khazaria that followed an identical pattern(Israelites or Jews were sent to correctly educate the population).

http://www.answers.com/topic/samaritan
http://www.answers.com/topic/mount-gerizim

The precise date of the schism between Samaritans and Jews is unknown, but was certainly complete by the end of the fourth century BC. Archaeological excavations at Mount Gerizim suggest that a Samaritan temple was built there c. 330BC, and when Alexander the Great (356-323) was in the region, he is said to have visited Samaria and not Jerusalem. 1

You,

Again I entered the fray so to speak because there are many Zionist Christians that do wrecklessly "support" Israel as if they are God's people today. If they were then there would be no need to take "ungodliness from Jacob". The specific generation is vastly important. They now work against us. I also find that it is in Dispensationalist circles that even if aspects of it are true make a complete mess of it with one out of context verse after another. When it boils down to it, it appears to me Israel has a role in the future. I don't have a problem with that. However not the old covenant IMHO.

ME,

Dispensationalists are thankful that God keeps his promises so minutely as is demonstrated in and by this nation Israel and we definitely support Israel's right to exist in the land of Palestine. That is not to say we support all and everything Israel does. We know from reading the Scriptures that Israel is the key to Bible prophecy and is the reason for the mad attempts by Satan to destroy this people all through the centuries. If Israel can be illiminated, then God's end time prophecies can not be realized.

On your note that dispensationalists continually take verses out of context, would you mind posting a couple of examples for us? Thanks!

All of Daniel 11 for a start. Not a few just decide to insert thousands of years between 2 and 3. It is beyond credulity.

2: "And now I will show you the truth. Behold, three more kings shall arise in Persia; and a fourth shall be far richer than all of them; and when he has become strong through his riches, he shall stir up all against the kingdom of Greece.
3: Then a mighty king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion and do according to his will.

Israel will be restored, all 12 tribes because God must honor his word. He has made 4 unconditional covenants with them and in those covenants he has made national and family promises that he has made with no one else. Many of those promises have not been realized yet, but do not worry, they will be at some point very soon.

Thanks, JDS

I don't have a problem with that.