LDS Zarahemla Nonexistent

[Ironhold]

Your point is?

 

[Peter1000]

Then it has to be there--and it obviously isn't.

You cannot say that it "obviously isn't". All we can say is that we have not found a site that tells us in their own words, this is Zarahemla.

For all you know, those words may be just a few feet underground and will be discovered one day. That is what you can say.

 

[Peter1000]

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Where is the name JS in that scripture? Besides, that scripture was fulfilled way before Paul was even dead. You are aware that many in the church of his day did not believe in the resurrection of Jesus. You are aware that Paul prophesied that many elders and bishops would forsake the church and drag many good members away with them as a wolf would do to sheep. So it has already happened, and did happen all through the church history all the way up until today.

Jesus Christ did through JS restore the true church of Jesus Christ to the earth again. It was bound to teach things a bit differently, because the true church had been lost 2000 years ago, and the church as a whole was left with men, leading men with their own wisdom, and the church lost a lot of true teachings and true ordinances, all of which had to be restored and taught again by JS. If those teaching do not line up with what you believe and are teaching, you may want to take a note and learn from someone who received revelation and direct contact with Jesus Christ for his doctrinal concepts.
And not Strong's compilation.

 

[mmksparbud]

You cannot say that it "obviously isn't". All we can say is that we have not found a site that tells us in their own words, this is Zarahemla.

For all you know, those words may be just a few feet underground and will be discovered one day. That is what you can say.

We were talking about the garden of Eden there---Where in Missouri are 4 rivers as described in the bible?? No matter how much the earth changes, there are left over evidences. They are those in the Middle east, at east possibilities and some of the names--where are they in Missouri? Everything in the bible takes place in the middle east--from beginning to end---JS just wanted it to be in Missouri because he was there. He wants to change the word of God to suit his theories and change the focus from what God says to what he says.

 

[Peter1000]

We were talking about the garden of Eden there---Where in Missouri are 4 rivers as described in the bible?? No matter how much the earth changes, there are left over evidences. They are those in the Middle east, at east possibilities and some of the names--where are they in Missouri? Everything in the bible takes place in the middle east--from beginning to end---JS just wanted it to be in Missouri because he was there. He wants to change the word of God to suit his theories and change the focus from what God says to what he says.

For the garden of Eden to be in Missouri does not change the Word of God. The garden of Eden was somewhere, that is debateable. You have not found the 4 river configuration in the east either. So what if you have a river called the Euphrates River, are saying that that Euphrates river is exactly the same Euphrates river spoken of in Genesis?

There are multitudes of rivers around Missouri, just like in the east.

The point is, nobody knows the exact location of Eden at this time. Just like nobody know the exact location of Zarahemla at this time. That is all that we were really discussing. It is only a matter of time and probably in the millenium that we will find out the true location of Eden and Zarahemla. So stay tuned.

When we find the exact location of Zarahemla will you join the church?

 

[mmksparbud]

For the garden of Eden to be in Missouri does not change the Word of God. The garden of Eden was somewhere, that is debateable. You have not found the 4 river configuration in the east either. So what if you have a river called the Euphrates River, are saying that that Euphrates river is exactly the same Euphrates river spoken of in Genesis?

There are multitudes of rivers around Missouri, just like in the east.

The point is, nobody knows the exact location of Eden at this time. Just like nobody know the exact location of Zarahemla at this time. That is all that we were really discussing. It is only a matter of time and probably in the millenium that we will find out the true location of Eden and Zarahemla. So stay tuned.

When we find the exact location of Zarahemla will you join the church?

Not the exact 4 rivers--yet. but we have 2 of them that fit the description---there is nothing in Missouri that even vaguely resembles any of it. And you can not get away from the fact that everything that happens in the bible is situated in the middle east. And if the other 2 are found---will you come back to the word of God and throw out the word of JS?

 

[Peter1000]

Not the exact 4 rivers--yet. but we have 2 of them that fit the description---there is nothing in Missouri that even vaguely resembles any of it. And you can not get away from the fact that everything that happens in the bible is situated in the middle east. And if the other 2 are found---will you come back to the word of God and throw out the word of JS?

I am already in the word of God, but I also have what God has said to JS. That you do not have, which is a disadvantage to you.

 

[Peter1000]

Not the exact 4 rivers--yet. but we have 2 of them that fit the description---there is nothing in Missouri that even vaguely resembles any of it. And you can not get away from the fact that everything that happens in the bible is situated in the middle east. And if the other 2 are found---will you come back to the word of God and throw out the word of JS?

That is what we say about Zarahemla, "not the exact spot--yet". But the search is interesting.

There you go with your "nothing that is even vaguely resembles any of it"? Have you ever looked at the river systems in Missouri? There is just as good a chance as far as rivers go, that Eden was in Missouri as in the Middle East. Just take a look. There are many possibilities. You have obviously never considered it. But now that you know about it and knowing the river system in Missouri, you cannot say "nothing vaguely" unless you are terribly biased agains JS. But you are , so that is why you can say it. But actually saying it makes you look intellectually dishonest.

 

[mmksparbud]

I am already in the word of God, but I also have what God has said to JS. That you do not have, which is a disadvantage to you.

It is a distinct advantage to not rely on the word of man. God gave us His word--He gave it to Jews, in their own language, not through stones in a hat in an obscure language no one ever heard of, but in their own language He spoke to them---clearly. He is God. His word is Him. No one can change that. He is telling us who He is through that word. He is able to protect what He gave us. And He did. there was always a remnant throughout history that had His word. It never completely disappeared. The
RCC had it hidden and unavailable for years, but it never ceased to exist.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

You have the words of a man in error---that is a distinct disadvantage to you.

 

[mmksparbud]

That is what we say about Zarahemla, "not the exact spot--yet". But the search is interesting.

There you go with your "nothing that is even vaguely resembles any of it"? Have you ever looked at the river systems in Missouri? There is just as good a chance as far as rivers go, that Eden was in Missouri as in the Middle East. Just take a look. There are many possibilities. You have obviously never considered it. But now that you know about it and knowing the river system in Missouri, you cannot say "nothing vaguely" unless you are terribly biased agains JS. But you are , so that is why you can say it. But actually saying it makes you look intellectually dishonest.

Name one single thing that occurred in the bible that occurred anywhere else but in the middle east. Everything is centered there. That is where Jesus was born, raised and died and was resurrected. It is from there that His word went to the world. Not from Missouri.
Please show those rivers you believe are the Garden of Eden.

 

[Peter1000]

Name one single thing that occurred in the bible that occurred anywhere else but in the middle east. Everything is centered there. That is where Jesus was born, raised and died and was resurrected. It is from there that His word went to the world. Not from Missouri.
Please show those rivers you believe are the Garden of Eden.

Sorry, Ararat, is in the Caucasus, not the middle east. But that is just where Noah landed, who knows in the world where Eden is? Just because Noah landed on Ararat and came down into the middle east does not mean Eden was anywhere near the middle east. Remember he sailed on the ocean for 150 days from somewhere? Noboby knows.

So to say that "not one single thing that occurred in the bible happened anywhere else but in the middle east, again, is just not true. Abraham came from the east, like the wisemen. Moses came from Northern Africa, so no, lots of bible stories came from outside the middle east. Paul and Peter died in Rome, not the middle east, etc.

It is true that Jesus was born, died, and was resurrected there, but he also appeared as a resurrected being in the Americas to people of the house of Israel, to teach them the same things that he had taught the people of the house of Israel in Jerusalem. Do you think that after 700 years of being scattered, that Israel was pretty much scattered over the whole earth by the time Jesus came? So if Jesus was commanded of his God to preach to the house of Israel, he had to go where they were, and he did.

 

[Peter1000]

It is a distinct advantage to not rely on the word of man. God gave us His word--He gave it to Jews, in their own language, not through stones in a hat in an obscure language no one ever heard of, but in their own language He spoke to them---clearly. He is God. His word is Him. No one can change that. He is telling us who He is through that word. He is able to protect what He gave us. And He did. there was always a remnant throughout history that had His word. It never completely disappeared. The
RCC had it hidden and unavailable for years, but it never ceased to exist.
Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

You have the words of a man in error---that is a distinct disadvantage to you.

The bible was written by man. The hundreds of translations and changes have been written by man.

 

[mmksparbud]

Sorry, Ararat, is in the Caucasus, not the middle east. But that is just where Noah landed, who knows in the world where Eden is? Just because Noah landed on Ararat and came down into the middle east does not mean Eden was anywhere near the middle east. Remember he sailed on the ocean for 150 days from somewhere? Noboby knows.

So to say that "not one single thing that occurred in the bible happened anywhere else but in the middle east, again, is just not true. Abraham came from the east, like the wisemen. Moses came from Northern Africa, so no, lots of bible stories came from outside the middle east. Paul and Peter died in Rome, not the middle east, etc.

It is true that Jesus was born, died, and was resurrected there, but he also appeared as a resurrected being in the Americas to people of the house of Israel, to teach them the same things that he had taught the people of the house of Israel in Jerusalem. Do you think that after 700 years of being scattered, that Israel was pretty much scattered over the whole earth by the time Jesus came? So if Jesus was commanded of his God to preach to the house of Israel, he had to go where they were, and he did.

Noah didn't sail anywhere---he floated. And everything is still near the middle east----Not one single solitary thing happened in America. The mountains of Ararat are in Turkey---which is next to Syria and Iran---far from America. Jesus never appeared in the Americas, except in the mind of JS. God knew exactly where Jesus was going to be born long before He was and He knew exactly where the Jews would be--He took them there. Jerusalem is His city--even when the earth is made new--Jerusalem will still be His City and He never placed it in America. Again---please show the rivers in Missouri you think resemble the Genesis description

 

[mmksparbud]

The bible was written by man. The hundreds of translations and changes have been written by man.

Inspired by the Holy Spirit and dictated, in many instances, by God Himself. The original is still the accurate one. The Dead Sea Scrolls shows that the wording has not changed. God is more than able to protect His word. Certainly can not compare to something that some man in the 1800's wrote--most of which he copied from that same bible just changing some words and adding a bunch of made up stuff that not one single person is able to verify in any way. We can see the Jews, we can see the archeological evidence of bible cities and names of ancient cultures mentioned in the bible, we can see old scrolls, we can examine those old scrolls, we can see the progression of the Jewish language---no one can examine any golden plates and what has been examined of JS's stuff--like the book of Abraham, have been shown to be fraudulent. There is no "reformed Egyptian" writing.

 

[Peter1000]

Noah didn't sail anywhere---he floated. And everything is still near the middle east----Not one single solitary thing happened in America. The mountains of Ararat are in Turkey---which is next to Syria and Iran---far from America. Jesus never appeared in the Americas, except in the mind of JS. God knew exactly where Jesus was going to be born long before He was and He knew exactly where the Jews would be--He took them there. Jerusalem is His city--even when the earth is made new--Jerusalem will still be His City and He never placed it in America. Again---please show the rivers in Missouri you think resemble the Genesis description

Do you think there was any movement from current or anything related to floating. Do you think the Lord just lifted the arc straight up and dropped it straight down. Maybe, but I would not think so. How far can a boat float in 150 days or more on the oceans? The answer is: a long way.

There you go with your "not one single solitary thing happened in America". I will just add, "that you know of", and I figure you don't know all that has happened in the Americas since the beginning of the world up to this day, right?

Yes God knew where Jesus was to be born, so what? That doesn't mean that Jesus can't come to the Americas to teach his beloved Israel.

Finally, please show the rivers in the middle east that you think resemble the Genesis description. I have looked and can't see it. If it was there 4000 years ago, it does not exist today. So good luck finding it. If you can't find your river system, where everyone says that it is, why ask me to prove mine?

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you think there was any movement from current or anything related to floating. Do you think the Lord just lifted the arc straight up and dropped it straight down. Maybe, but I would not think so. How far can a boat float in 150 days or more on the oceans? The answer is: a long way.

There you go with your "not one single solitary thing happened in America". I will just add, "that you know of", and I figure you don't know all that has happened in the Americas since the beginning of the world up to this day, right?

Yes God knew where Jesus was to be born, so what? That doesn't mean that Jesus can't come to the Americas to teach his beloved Israel.

Finally, please show the rivers in the middle east that you think resemble the Genesis description. I have looked and can't see it. If it was there 4000 years ago, it does not exist today. So good luck finding it. If you can't find your river system, where everyone says that it is, why ask me to prove mine?

The sky was falling on them, the water coming up below them--don 't know about any wind--that came later to dry the earth. The Lord didn't lift, He just had to keep it afloat. It wasn't an ocean, water was above the mountains, not much of a current going on that high up. God wanted that ark exactly where it to landed.



Don't need to know everything from the beginning of time---just to the time that Jesus was to have landed here. Some sort of evidence would be unearthed showing some sort of such an incident, old stories passed on, pottery depictions, wall paintings and so on. Must not have made much of an impression. There are no ancient tribal stories telling of such an event. No depiction of any such event noted in any pottery, or old blankets nothing to indicate anything that major occurred.

The area thought to be the Garden of Eden, which was flooded when Gulf waters arose, is shown in green.
Yellow areas of Bahrain and Arabian coast represent Dilmun, paradise land of Ubaidians and Sumerians

Has the Garden of Eden been located at last?

Geographical location of rivers mentioned in Genesis as flowing into the Garden of Eden, and the Garden's inferred location. Also shown are the earliest cities and the shoreline of the Persian Gulf as they existed at the time, around 8,000 years ago. Satellite image:

 

[Peter1000]

The sky was falling on them, the water coming up below them--don 't know about any wind--that came later to dry the earth.The Lord didn't lift, He just had to keep it afloat. It wasn't an ocean, water was above the mountains, not much of a current going on that high up. God wanted that ark exactly where it to landed.

1) The sky was fallin on them, the water was coming up below them. What does that have to do with anything?
2) don't know about any wind--that came later to dry the earth. So since you don't know about any wind, your position will be that there was no wind, and the arc was lifted up by the force of water, pretty much straight up, floated there for a while, and then came straight down. Well, I guess that is a position one could take.
3) The Lord didn't lift, He hust had to keep it afloat. Well now I would agree that the Lord did not get under the arc and lift it with His great strength. I would suggest though that the Lord caused the water to lift the arc. Would you agree with that?
I would also suggest that the Lord kept the arc alfloat by water also, would you agree. Rather than staying under the boat and keeping it afloat with His great strength.
4) It wasn't an ocean? OK, it was a "gigantic, world wide" ocean. Sorry, I did not specify that. If the water is above the mountains, so that the entire earth was under water, what exactly would you call that, a river, or stream, or pond, or lake, or would you call it a "gigantic, world-wide" ocean? Tell me what you would call it. Thank you.
5) not much of a current going on that high up. Well now, no wind, and now no current because it was high up. I'm sure there is a scientific proof there somewhere, but I haven't seen one. Please tell me the article that science has confirmed your thoughts about the conditions 5500 years ago.
6) God wanted that ark exactly where it to landed. I am sure that is what God wanted. But the question is where did the arc start from, not where is landed.

So your position is the arc was lifted up and did not float anywhere because water was fallling down on them and coming up on them. There was no wind until it was time to dry the land. And no currents that high up. Oh, and there was no ocean anyway. So the arc was lifted straight up and let pretty much straight down in the middle east and therefore we can prove that the garden of eden was in the middle east. Nice. But I do not believe it.

I believe that the arc could have been built in America, and lifted up and floated to Ararat by winds and currents in a gigantic ocean unjulating this way and that for 150+ days, and there is no scientific proof or personal views (see above) that you can present to presuade me otherwise.

 

[mmksparbud]

1) The sky was fallin on them, the water was coming up below them. What does that have to do with anything?
2) don't know about any wind--that came later to dry the earth. So since you don't know about any wind, your position will be that there was no wind, and the arc was lifted up by the force of water, pretty much straight up, floated there for a while, and then came straight down. Well, I guess that is a position one could take.
3) The Lord didn't lift, He hust had to keep it afloat. Well now I would agree that the Lord did not get under the arc and lift it with His great strength. I would suggest though that the Lord caused the water to lift the arc. Would you agree with that?
I would also suggest that the Lord kept the arc alfloat by water also, would you agree. Rather than staying under the boat and keeping it afloat with His great strength.
4) It wasn't an ocean? OK, it was a "gigantic, world wide" ocean. Sorry, I did not specify that. If the water is above the mountains, so that the entire earth was under water, what exactly would you call that, a river, or stream, or pond, or lake, or would you call it a "gigantic, world-wide" ocean? Tell me what you would call it. Thank you.
5) not much of a current going on that high up. Well now, no wind, and now no current because it was high up. I'm sure there is a scientific proof there somewhere, but I haven't seen one. Please tell me the article that science has confirmed your thoughts about the conditions 5500 years ago.
6) God wanted that ark exactly where it to landed. I am sure that is what God wanted. But the question is where did the arc start from, not where is landed.

So your position is the arc was lifted up and did not float anywhere because water was fallling down on them and coming up on them. There was no wind until it was time to dry the land. And no currents that high up. Oh, and there was no ocean anyway. So the arc was lifted straight up and let pretty much straight down in the middle east and therefore we can prove that the garden of eden was in the middle east. Nice. But I do not believe it.

I believe that the arc could have been built in America, and lifted up and floated to Ararat by winds and currents in a gigantic ocean unjulating this way and that for 150+ days, and there is no scientific proof or personal views (see above) that you can present to presuade me otherwise.

What I am saying is--there is no mention of wind before the waters receded and God sent a wind to dry up the land. There may have been some. And sure, the ark drifted---drifted, not sailed. There just was not enough current going there to send it far away, clear across the other end of the earth. It was a planet covered with water, yes, you could call it a gigantic ocean. But the higher the surface of the water is from the bottom of the earth, the less intense are the currents. Of course, God can move mountains and can move an ark. Just doesn't indicate that the ark went really that far away. You are, of course, entitled to believe whatever JS has told you. It's just that it makes no sense. Everything simply took place in the middle east. It was a huge ark, very heavy, no winds, no currents yet, no internal mechanical engines to power it, would not have floated all that far away, but far enough to end up "in the mountains of Ararat."
JS wanted to have the Garden in Missouri, simply because he was there and wanted everything revolving around him. He figured he was going to stay there and wanted to make the place "sacred." He was setting up his "throne" there and no doubt would have moved the capital there if his plans of becoming President of this country had come true---God had different ideas, though.
I showed you where they seem to think the Garden was and the rivers and surrounding countries that seem to correspond to the description in the bible. You have not shown anything that comes even close to what is seen in the middle east. When the earth is made new and the New Jerusalem comes down, it still says it will be over where it is now. If the Garden of Eden had been in America--everything that happened, would have happened here instead of over there. God knows what He's doing. He I very precise bout His actions. Nothing indicates anything happened over here beyond visions and dreams. No indication of any "man" coming here as Jesus did in the middle east.
There were Indian stories, dreams and so forth, indicating a white man was coming---that is one reason that the Inca's defenses where down when the Spaniards came and blew them away--they thought it was Pizzaro. But they were looking for one to come---nothing about one having already come.

 

[Peter1000]

What I am saying is--there is no mention of wind before the waters receded and God sent a wind to dry up the land. There may have been some. And sure, the ark drifted---drifted, not sailed. There just was not enough current going there to send it far away, clear across the other end of the earth. It was a planet covered with water, yes, you could call it a gigantic ocean. But the higher the surface of the water is from the bottom of the earth, the less intense are the currents. Of course, God can move mountains and can move an ark. Just doesn't indicate that the ark went really that far away. You are, of course, entitled to believe whatever JS has told you. It's just that it makes no sense. Everything simply took place in the middle east. It was a huge ark, very heavy, no winds, no currents yet, no internal mechanical engines to power it, would not have floated all that far away, but far enough to end up "in the mountains of Ararat."
JS wanted to have the Garden in Missouri, simply because he was there and wanted everything revolving around him. He figured he was going to stay there and wanted to make the place "sacred." He was setting up his "throne" there and no doubt would have moved the capital there if his plans of becoming President of this country had come true---God had different ideas, though.
I showed you where they seem to think the Garden was and the rivers and surrounding countries that seem to correspond to the description in the bible. You have not shown anything that comes even close to what is seen in the middle east. When the earth is made new and the New Jerusalem comes down, it still says it will be over where it is now. If the Garden of Eden had been in America--everything that happened, would have happened here instead of over there. God knows what He's doing. He I very precise bout His actions. Nothing indicates anything happened over here beyond visions and dreams. No indication of any "man" coming here as Jesus did in the middle east.
There were Indian stories, dreams and so forth, indicating a white man was coming---that is one reason that the Inca's defenses where down when the Spaniards came and blew them away--they thought it was Pizzaro. But they were looking for one to come---nothing about one having already come.

Again, that you know there was no wind or currents has to be a great big nothingburger. What kind of currents do you think were created when the fountains of the deep were broken up? Who knows, but
as the waters lifted up the arc and then eventually covered all the mountains, I can at least conjur up a certain amount of current that could carry a boat a fair distance from where it was built, but who really knows. It really is not that important anyway.

Wow, setting up his throne? Moving the capital to Missouri? You really dislike JS don't you? You would think that the founding of SDA would give you a feel for prophets of God, but I guess not.

Just because the garden of Eden was in America, does not mean that everything would have happened here. God wanted His son to be born in Jerusalem, and he was, regardless of Eden.

The story is that a white man with a beard came to their people and ministered to them and was their king, and then he left and said he would return. When Cortez and Pizzaro came to the Americas, they conquered partly because many of the people thought they were this white God they were waiting to return to them.

 

[drstevej]

Just because the garden of Eden was in America, does not mean that everything would have happened here. God wanted His son to be born in Jerusalem, and he was, regardless of Eden.

Jesus was NOT born in Jerusalem