Your WORKS won't do it.

[d taylor]

The N.T. does speak about rewards....but the reward we're all waiting for is heaven...not a reward.

John speaks about this:
1 John 2:17
17The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

Whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 5:13
13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

To believe in the Son is to obey the Son...

John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

He that does not obey will have the wrath of God abide on him.

Revelation 22:12
12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

2 Corinthians 5:10 repeats the above except it is Paul saying it.

Other verses speak of the Crown of Glory or the Crown of Life....
These refer to heaven.
Rev 2:10
James 1:12

Since the N.T. teaches possible loss of faith,,,I'd say that to insist that all verses about rewards is for all would be a mistake.

Rewards will go to those that have held fast, continued in the faith, and are going to heaven.

Do you know what the will of the Father is (and it is not any works or actions done by a person).

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The obey in John 3: is to believe it is stated in the start of the verse.
God's only command given to receive Eternal Life is to trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life. John states the only obedience/work is.

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

A person can lose faith but that is not the same as losing eternal life. The parable of the soils makes that clear. The only person in this parable to not believe and be saved is the first soil. The other three soils, represents a believer that believed and received eternal life.

You do know heaven is a temporary place for believers, a person does not spend eternity in heaven.

 

[Sabertooth]

...so there!

Your declaration is not new. The subsequent rebuttals will not be, either.

 

[GodsGrace101]

God already gave us the Kingdom out of Heaven. We must accept it over and above the kingdoms of man. Our place in it, from within the walls to the furthest reaches, is determined by our faithfulness in fulfilling His commandments.

Hi T,
Yes, I also believe the above stated by you.
The Kingdom of God begins right here in this world....
Jesus came to change this world as much as possible and to "create" the Kingdom of God right here (the Kingdom out of heaven, as you call it).

Jesus wanted to show us how to become a part of that Kingdom, beginning now.
And, yes, the way to enter is to become saved...the way to remain is to follow the rules of that Kingdom,,,and those rules are to keep the commandments of God, as Jesus stated many times.

 

[GodsGrace101]

DeepWater isn't much for even answering to posts that turn his claims upside down but here it is just the same. Refute it or forever hold your peace, and know people can and do give up their salvation all the time. So, no, as nice as that might be, you don't get to keep your salvation if you don't listen to Christ and be obeisant to him/do as he says.



Of course we can fall away, and it isn't the "Legalist" that are "lying about this"...I'll show you:

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

Hebrews 3:12-19 - Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Revelation 2:4-5 - Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. (Read More...)

19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Mathew 13: 20The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Now show us scripture that states Jesus will remain with us if we depart from the faith or go back to the ways of the world, back to living in sin. There is no verse that says that.

And there is a reason for that...

He won't.

Hi K,,,
The N.T. is chock full of verses that state we could fall away from our faith...
I fail to understand why all do not see this...maybe it's just too scary?

The fact is that it's up to US to remain in Christ and follow Him, and thus there is nothing to be afraid of.

All the N.T. writers warned about falling away, continuing in the faith, etc.
We should take heed.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Hi K,,,
The N.T. is chock full of verses that state we could fall away from our faith...
I fail to understand why all do not see this...maybe it's just too scary?

The fact is that it's up to US to remain in Christ and follow Him, and thus there is nothing to be afraid of.

All the N.T. writers warned about falling away, continuing in the faith, etc.
We should take heed.

Denial.

I agree, it is scary, and I'd guess for a few reasons, not all of them bad. The bad, because accepting it would mean they can no longer be selfish, and have it their way instead of Gods way. The spirit of Satan has caused them to think as they do, and we can put the truth right before them but denial will kick in and they will not even see it.

The not so bad, at least in a sense, is loved ones who accepted Christ but then lived like the devil and died in their sin, or are living in sin at present, something their family/friends have no control over, so they find away around that by going OSAS. But that is for their own piece of mind and it still falls back to being selfish. Instead, we should be teaching the truth and even more loudly, instead of not facing our fears, and leaving our whole eternity in the hands of a few preachers that keep a large congregation and the perks to that by teaching an easier but false/deadly way to heaven.

It also allows some to bring others to become "Christian" when otherwise they would not have done so because the truth/the fact we have to make effort is just too much to ask of some.

The thing is, for the reward, and considering gratitude God created us to begin with, not to mention he went to all this trouble of going through a thousands of years process to to put things together, and help us understand, including seeing his son die for us...what he asks of us in return is not a drop in the bucket.

Besides, once we get into trying to please God, life is so much better, and we feel so much more secure. Do these people that come here constantly starting threads in effort to reinforce their OSAS belief sound "secure" to you? Not to me, nothing even close to that. But I'm glad they are here, as at least some, if not most of them, want to be shown they are wrong because what they chose to latch on to in the past may be starting to not feel quit right.

Jesus's burden is light, but a burden nonetheless (OSAS removes burden completely, a hint in itself it is contrary the Christs teachings) and all considered, I agree with him ...it is light.

 

[Robin Mauro]

There are NO verses in the Bible, both Testaments included... that say Jesus, once in you, will leave you if you are a bad Christian, etc.
He is sealed in there, along with the Holy Spirit, unless the bible is lying.

Jesus does promise you Eternal Life, and this promise has NO CONDITIONS, once you are born again, unless Jesus is lying. (Now, heretics/ legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

There are NO verses in the Bible, both testaments included, that say you can fall out of Christ, or become disconnected from Christ. (now heretics /Legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

And there is a reason for that...

You can't.

=====================================================

People who are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in Christ...who talk about "holding unto your faith, is how you keep yourself saved", have not understood that God does not save you by your faith. What He does is accept your faith, to then SAVE YOU BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS. "faith is counted as righteousness", but...faith is not the Blood of Jesus..>Its just the means that God accepts to give you that Blood Atonement and the Righteousness of Christ....as "the GIFT of Righteousness". = BORN AGAIN.

Think of this. Think of all the things that a heretic- religious person believes that they have to do, so that God will take them and keep them... Now do all those things...., keep the Torah, keep the commandments, keep the law, love God and your neighbor as yourself, be water baptized........but do this also.........Take Jesus off the Cross. Put Him back into heaven. No cross, No blood, no death, no sacrifice.

Now, keep doing all that stuff. Keep those commandments. Live that holy life.. Take those sacraments. Join that "one true church"... Keep that golden rule. Get water baptized a few times " for the remission of your sin". Love your neighbor as yourself. Keep the law. Die a Martyr..... Do all that for 1000 yrs.

Are you saved by any or all of it?

I'll ask you again, are you saved by any or all of it? Are your sins forgiven by all that? Are you Born Again by that 1000 yrs of WORKS?

You're not?

And why is that?

If you can answer that correctly, in your own heart, then you are describing the Gospel of the GRACE OF GOD, in Truth.
For some of you, that'll be the first time you ever realized it.

Hebrews 6:4-8
The book of Jude.
We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
"I was hungry and you fed me not..."
We are not saved by works because even our righteousness is as filthy rags, but we are also not saved without them. We were created for good works. We are saved by Jesus' sacrifice, but we are called to do good works as a response, and not use his gift as an excuse to sin.
James says faith without works will not save you, and Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

 

[Phil W]

Hi T,
Yes, I also believe the above stated by you.
The Kingdom of God begins right here in this world....
Jesus came to change this world as much as possible and to "create" the Kingdom of God right here (the Kingdom out of heaven, as you call it).

Jesus wanted to show us how to become a part of that Kingdom, beginning now.
And, yes, the way to enter is to become saved...the way to remain is to follow the rules of that Kingdom,,,and those rules are to keep the commandments of God, as Jesus stated many times.

"And His commandments are not grievous". (1 John 5:3)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Denial.

I agree, it is scary, and I'd guess for a few reasons, not all of them bad. The bad, because accepting it would mean they can no longer be selfish, and have it their way instead of Gods way. The spirit of Satan has caused them to think as they do, and we can put the truth right before them but denial will kick in and they will not even see it.

The not so bad, at least in a sense, is loved ones who accepted Christ but then lived like the devil and died in their sin, or are living in sin at present, something their family/friends have no control over, so they find away around that by going OSAS. But that is for their own piece of mind and it still falls back to being selfish. Instead, we should be teaching the truth and even more loudly, instead of not facing our fears, and leaving our whole eternity in the hands of a few preachers that keep a large congregation and the perks to that by teaching an easier but false/deadly way to heaven.

It also allows some to bring others to become "Christian" when otherwise they would not have done so because the truth/the fact we have to make effort is just too much to ask of some.

The thing is, for the reward, and considering gratitude God created us to begin with, not to mention he went to all this trouble of going through a thousands of years process to to put things together, and help us understand, including seeing his son die for us...what he asks of us in return is not a drop in the bucket.

Besides, once we get into trying to please God, life is so much better, and we feel so much more secure. Do these people that come here constantly starting threads in effort to reinforce their OSAS belief sound "secure" to you? Not to me, nothing even close to that. But I'm glad they are here, as at least some, if not most of them, want to be shown they are wrong because what they chose to latch on to in the past may be starting to not feel quit right.

Jesus's burden is light, but a burden nonetheless (OSAS removes burden completely, a hint in itself it is contrary the Christs teachings) and all considered, I agree with him ...it is light.

Very good post.
I agree with all of it...the next to the last paragraph is very insightful.

I too have had the feeling that there is some kind of insecurity involved with the belief in unconditional security. It DOES take away all responsibility, as you've said.

I believe in security too...conditional security...the condition being that we must believe Jesus and belief includes obedience.

Some want Jesus as their Savior, but not as their Lord.
Jesus said:
Why call Me Lord Lord, and do not do as I say?
Luke 6:46

 

[GodsGrace101]

"And His commandments are not grievous". (1 John 5:3)

Agreed.
Not only are they not grievous, but as @Kenny'sID stated: When we obey God life is better and we can feel secure in His love.

Satan comes to lie to us and lead us down the wide path...

 

[Kenny'sID]

1

 

[Kenny'sID]

Why call Me Lord Lord, and do not do as I say?
Luke 6:46

I'm putting that in my arsenal.

Thing is I keep asking them if their faith in Christ includes doing as he said and they evidently know Christ said we have to do things because they just don't address it...ever. One would think with enough such actions, they woulds figure it out.

 

[timothyu]

Thing is I keep asking them if their faith in Christ includes doing as he said and they evidently know Christ said we have to do things because they just don't address it...ever.

Why should they? The blind teach the blind. A religion that didn't do what Jesus said and teamed up with a secular empire could hardly be expected to teach contrary to their ways.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Why should they? The blind teach the blind. A religion that didn't do what Jesus said and teamed up with a secular empire could hardly be expected to teach contrary to their ways.

i agree, and it's so odd to watch them evade the same things every time without batting an eye, as if to say, we don't want to see that, it proves us wrong. The fact they evade it tells us they know what it means...yet.

A little scary actually.

 

[timothyu]

The fact they evade it tells us they know what it means...yet.

Don't let the open mindedness on these forums fool you. Most people going to church have no idea of the foundation of Christianity nor care. They just either want hope or a sense they are accepted no matter what they do. That is why is is rare to hear sermons about the separation between world and Kingdom, world bad, Kingdom good, but rather focus on personal sins.

 

[pasifika]

I'm putting that in my arsenal.

Thing is I keep asking them if their faith in Christ includes doing as he said and they evidently know Christ said we have to do things because they just don't address it...ever. One would think with enough such actions, they woulds figure it out.

Hello, if you're doing what Christ said then is Not "you" who is doing it but the "Spirit" whom God put in you...Man cannot do righteous act or good works on it own, But God doing through man....Mark 10:18...No one is good except God Alone...
Ezekiel 36:27..I will put my "Spirit" in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws..

 

[Kenny'sID]

Don't let the open mindedness on these forums fool you. Most people going to church have no idea of the foundation of Christianity nor care. They just either want hope or a sense they are accepted no matter what they do. That is why is is rare to hear sermons about the separation between world and Kingdom, world bad, Kingdom good, but rather focus on personal sins.

Interesting.

 

[renniks]

But if you mean as nutty heretics preach it, that you lose your salvation every time you say the "F" word, or watch a "R" Rated movie as most of you do, and then after you enjoy it, you feel guilty, and want your salvation back that you lost by "willfully sinning" when you watched "Game of Thrones", and so, you "repent" and God saves you again., and again.
Are you talking about the theology of the INSANE who believe that nonsense?
So if that is you, then "no"......

Well, that is nutty, I agree. But we can forfeit our salvation by falling for false teaching. The very fact that you have to warn people against falling into a works doctrine kinda proves you believe one can fall away.

 

[timothyu]

Interesting.

Think about it. Churches cater to the self interest of the paying masses. What can be done for me... personal salvation trumps human salvation.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Hello, if you're doing what Christ said then is Not "you" who is doing it but the "Spirit" whom God put in you...Man cannot do righteous act or good works on it own, But God doing through man....Mark 10:18...No one is good except God Alone...

All I know os Christ said we must do good, and he didn't say he would do that for me, nor will he force me to do it. So, as far as I know, the only way that happens is if I do it.

I know there is scripture that seems to back what you say, so could you please post the verse/scripture here so we can take a look at it, and try to access just what he does mean?

 

[pasifika]

All I know os Christ said we must do good, and he didn't say he would do that for me, nor will he force me to do it. So, as far as I know, the only way that happens is if I do it.

I know there is scripture that seems to back what you say, so could you please post the verse/scripture here so we can take a look at it, and try to access just what he does mean?

Hello, Scripture says that there is No One who Does good..Romans 3:12, Ecclesiastes 7:20...Indeed there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and Never sins..
Ezekiel 36:27...I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws...