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Mathetes66

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Jesus does promise you Eternal Life, and this promise has NO CONDITIONS, once you are born again, unless Jesus is lying. (Now, heretics/ legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

Apparently you haven't read the teachings of Christ recently and no, Jesus is not lying but your false premise is a lie. Now that being said, you have already made it clear & made up your mind, that anyone that disagrees with you is either a heretic or a legalist, so go ahead & put your false label on me.

Another thing one must be careful of is making 'all nor none' statements because in most cases one will be proven wrong.

But there are conditions that need to be met before one is saved by God. Salvation is not of ourselves & it is not of works but...here are some teachings of Jesus Christ & the writers of Scripture. Some might be self-evident, but there are conditions that need to be met if God is to save someone.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God UNLESS he is born of water AND the Spirit.

Hebrew 11:6 And WITHOUT faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Anyone who wants to come to Him must believe that God EXISTS & that He rewards those who SINCERELY seek Him.

John 12:24,25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, UNLESS a grain of wheat falls into the earth & dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it FOR ETERNAL LIFE.

I Cor 15:36 You fool! What you sow does not come to life UNLESS it dies.

Acts 8:33ff So Philip ran up & heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. "How can I," he said, "UNLESS someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up & sit with him...Then Philip began with this very Scripture & told him the good news about Jesus.

Romans 10:12-17 For there is no distinction between Jew & Gentile; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing His riches on all who call on Him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14HOW then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And HOW are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And HOW are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach UNLESS they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith COMES FROM HEARING & hearing through the word of God.

Matt 13:15 For this people’s heart has grown dull & with their ears they can barely hear & their eyes they have closed, UNLESS they should see with their eyes & hear with their ears & understand with their heart & turn & I would heal them.’

Luke 13:1ff There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?

3No, I tell you; but UNLESS you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell & killed them; do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but UNLESS you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

2 Cor 7:9,10 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow LED TO repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow PRODUCES repentance that LEADS TO salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

There are many more, but I will stop here.
 
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GodsGrace101

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At the Cross? Is this what you are talking about? You are trying but failing to explain that a person hears the Gospel, that "Christ came into the world to save sinners", and that if you "believe on Jesus you shall be saved"..
is this what you mean? That a person who is lost, hears me preach that message in a pulpit, or on a Television, and the hearer is drawn to the Cross by the conviction of the HOLY SPIRIT.= in a state of ( sincere heart) repentance, knowing they are a sinner, knowing they are lost, and believing the message im preaching, so that they THRU this FAITH, can be born again by GOD?

Is that what you mean?
If so, then yeah.

But if you mean as nutty heretics preach it, that you lose your salvation every time you say the "F" word, or watch a "R" Rated movie as most of you do, and then after you enjoy it, you feel guilty, and want your salvation back that you lost by "willfully sinning" when you watched "Game of Thrones", and so, you "repent" and God saves you again., and again.
Are you talking about the theology of the INSANE who believe that nonsense?
So if that is you, then "no"......
I don't know any christian that believes what you've stated above.

If you come to God through faith and are saved...
then you can forfeit your salvation by LEAVING God....
However, this is a different subject than works/good deeds being necessary for salvation.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Explain why the Blood atonement that saves you, (not your works).... keeps you saved.
Explain that.
The blood atonement saves those that care to make use of it.
To make use of it you must be in the New Covenant since it is better than the Old or Mosaic Covenant. Hebrews 8:7

Any covenant does NOT abolish the previous one.
Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but He did fulfill it because he perfectly kept all the law.

So yes, once we are in the New Covenant, we are saved by the blood of Christ.

If we LEAVE the New Covenant, then we are no longer part of it and are no longer under Jesus' salvation.

IOW, if we are no longer part of the New Covenant,,,we are as lost as before.

How do you understand Mathew 5:20?
What did Jesus mean when He said that OUR righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees in order to enter the Kingdom of heaven?

And you're deflating from my comment that Jesus left us with MANY commandments. He did this so we could follow them....

You might want to start with Mathew 5:3-10....
are these good works to your understanding?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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At the Cross? Is this what you are talking about? You are trying but failing to explain that a person hears the Gospel, that "Christ came into the world to save sinners", and that if you "believe on Jesus you shall be saved"..
is this what you mean? That a person who is lost, hears me preach that message in a pulpit, or on a Television, and the hearer is drawn to the Cross by the conviction of the HOLY SPIRIT.= in a state of ( sincere heart) repentance, knowing they are a sinner, knowing they are lost, and believing the message im preaching, so that they THRU this FAITH, can be born again by GOD?

Is that what you mean?
If so, then yeah.

But if you mean as nutty heretics preach it, that you lose your salvation every time you say the "F" word, or watch a "R" Rated movie as most of you do, and then after you enjoy it, you feel guilty, and want your salvation back that you lost by "willfully sinning" when you watched "Game of Thrones", and so, you "repent" and God saves you again., and again.
Are you talking about the theology of the INSANE who believe that nonsense?
So if that is you, then "no"......
A more simplified revision of my question- If a Christian commits adultery do they need to repent?
 
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Aussie Pete

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There are NO verses in the Bible, both Testaments included... that say Jesus, once in you, will leave you if you are a bad Christian, etc.
He is sealed in there, along with the Holy Spirit, unless the bible is lying.

Jesus does promise you Eternal Life, and this promise has NO CONDITIONS, once you are born again, unless Jesus is lying. (Now, heretics/ legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

There are NO verses in the Bible, both testaments included, that say you can fall out of Christ, or become disconnected from Christ. (now heretics /Legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

And there is a reason for that...

You can't.

=====================================================

People who are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in Christ...who talk about "holding unto your faith, is how you keep yourself saved", have not understood that God does not save you by your faith. What He does is accept your faith, to then SAVE YOU BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS. "faith is counted as righteousness", but...faith is not the Blood of Jesus..>Its just the means that God accepts to give you that Blood Atonement and the Righteousness of Christ....as "the GIFT of Righteousness". = BORN AGAIN.

Think of this. Think of all the things that a heretic- religious person believes that they have to do, so that God will take them and keep them... Now do all those things...., keep the Torah, keep the commandments, keep the law, love God and your neighbor as yourself, be water baptized........but do this also.........Take Jesus off the Cross. Put Him back into heaven. No cross, No blood, no death, no sacrifice.

Now, keep doing all that stuff. Keep those commandments. Live that holy life.. Take those sacraments. Join that "one true church"... Keep that golden rule. Get water baptized a few times " for the remission of your sin". Love your neighbor as yourself. Keep the law. Die a Martyr..... Do all that for 1000 yrs.

Are you saved by any or all of it?

I'll ask you again, are you saved by any or all of it? Are your sins forgiven by all that? Are you Born Again by that 1000 yrs of WORKS?

You're not?

And why is that?

If you can answer that correctly, in your own heart, then you are describing the Gospel of the GRACE OF GOD, in Truth.
For some of you, that'll be the first time you ever realized it.
Thank you for your post. You've brought the focus of much discussion where needs to be.

Part of the problem is because of the modern definition of "saved". It has come to mean "going to heaven when you die". This is an extremely shallow interpretation. Lord Jesus preached the Kingdom of God, not a personal salvation. If we think of "salvation" correctly, it means "deliverance". "You shall call His name Jesus, He will deliver His people from their sins

We are not delivered by anything but grace. Our initial coming to see that we are sinners is by grace. Being forgiven is by grace. Our daily walk with Christ, being delivered from sin's power, is by grace.

Grace is a bit of an abstract word. Romans 5:10 says that we are delivered by the Life of Christ. That means all the pressure comes off me. I don't need to live the Christian life. I have Lord Jesus living within me to be my holiness, righteousness, wisdom, love, joy, peace, self control and whatever else God requires of me. You who demand that Christians live some kind of perfection, tell me how a dead person can be righteous? The cross puts an end to all that we are. It's no longer "I" that lives. It is Christ that lives in me. You who demand faith to save, where do you get such faith? My Bible tells me that it is the faith of the Son of God, in spite of the mistranslations of modern versions.

If we are depending on the Life of Christ, then there will be good fruit. But too many people think we have to produce fruit. No. We are called to bear fruit, not produce it. Fruit simply identifies what kind of tree it is. Fruit does not cause the tree to be what it is.

The emphasis on keeping commandments, obeying the law, the sacraments, church attendance and all those kinds of religious observances is "cart before the horse" stuff. Most of Paul's letters started with wonderful affirmations of who we are in Christ. He then went on to say what real Christian life was in practice. Get the "Life" principle right and the rest will follow.

There is no instant holiness. Deliverance is progressive, the "goal of our faith" as Peter puts it. And entirely by grace.

 
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Deus Vult!

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No, let me help you o-you-who-thinks-he-is-helping-by-misreading-God's-word.


Those "certain men" were "creeping in." They are ungodly men. They are not godly men. Into what did these ungodly men creep? According to the very same text you misguidedly quote we learn these ungodly men creep into the gathering of "those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ..." (vs. 3)

You do not help anyone when you prooftext. Including yourself. You do not help anyone when you fail to correctly identify the audience identities and affiliations.

So.....

FAIL

I am all for the full context, I could have just put the whole epistle in there but you wouldn't have the slightest clue what to make of it. Would you like me to systematically prove that the entirety of the letter is lost on you?
Obviously context is irrelevant to you, so I just pointed to one of many verses that accurately describes those who are "turning the grace of God into a license for immorality".
Which is what anyone is doing who preaches "once saved always saved" non sense.
 
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Deus Vult!

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You're the one that needs the help. You just posted a verse , out of context, that you dont even understand.
Let me help you.
The context of Jude's verse you posted is another one you've probably never even read, because you posted your entire theory of theology from some heretics commentary that is your bible, actually.
Jude says this....."contend for the FAITH". = The REAL Faith.
He's talking about the real faith....= the real faith is God on the Cross, who became the sacrifical sin bearer for the entire world, and dies for their sin, and offers His righteousness to them as the "gift of Righteousness". This in "ministry terms", is the message of restoration. God came here, as Christ, and offers Himself as the literal Blood and Body sacrificed for the WORLD. And whoso ever will believe in Jesus, God will RESTORE unto them , "the righteousness of Christ" which IS SALVATION.
And why dont you know this?
Why is that ?
I just taught you John 3:16, and you didnt even know it, because your gospel has nothing to do with Grace, fella. It has nothing to do with Paul. It has nothing to do with "Justification by Faith".
Your gospel is a heretic's mess. And you better read Galatians 1:8, and figure out what to do about yourself..... and NOT JUST YOU !

Jude is telling all real believers to contend for the REAL Faith, because lying heretics from the time of Paul, until the time of the next post to me here, are trying to substitute their False, God cursed, Galatians 1:8 "works and obedience to stay saved", in Place of the Gospel of the Grace of God.
This heretics gospel is "anti-cross".
And you'll do it again.
Just like the others here.

St. Jude warns of those that have "gone in the way of Korah" which is lost on you. St. Jude references "love feasts", this also is lost on you. You might as well just write your own Gospel so we can read that and see what you believe. The one you are using simply doesn't support your belief system.
 
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Deus Vult!

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Apparently you haven't read the teachings of Christ recently and no, Jesus is not lying but your false premise is a lie. Now that being said, you have already made it clear & made up your mind, that anyone that disagrees with you is either a heretic or a legalist, so go ahead & put your false label on me.

Another thing one must be careful of is making 'all nor none' statements because in most cases one will be proven wrong.

But there are conditions that need to be met before one is saved by God. Salvation is not of ourselves & it is not of works but...here are some teachings of Jesus Christ & the writers of Scripture. Some might be self-evident, but there are conditions that need to be met if God is to save someone.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God UNLESS he is born of water AND the Spirit.

Hebrew 11:6 And WITHOUT faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Anyone who wants to come to Him must believe that God EXISTS & that He rewards those who SINCERELY seek Him.

John 12:24,25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, UNLESS a grain of wheat falls into the earth & dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it FOR ETERNAL LIFE.

I Cor 15:36 You fool! What you sow does not come to life UNLESS it dies.

Acts 8:33ff So Philip ran up & heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. "How can I," he said, "UNLESS someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up & sit with him...Then Philip began with this very Scripture & told him the good news about Jesus.

Romans 10:12-17 For there is no distinction between Jew & Gentile; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing His riches on all who call on Him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14HOW then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And HOW are they to believe in Him of whom they have never heard? And HOW are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach UNLESS they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith COMES FROM HEARING & hearing through the word of God.

Matt 13:15 For this people’s heart has grown dull & with their ears they can barely hear & their eyes they have closed, UNLESS they should see with their eyes & hear with their ears & understand with their heart & turn & I would heal them.’

Luke 13:1ff There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?

3No, I tell you; but UNLESS you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell & killed them; do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but UNLESS you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

2 Cor 7:9,10 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow LED TO repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. For godly sorrow PRODUCES repentance that LEADS TO salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

There are many more, but I will stop here.

Just so you know what you are dealing with when understanding their beliefs, look up: Antinomianism
It is a somewhat old heresy that oddly enough even early protestants critiqued, Martin Luther included.
 
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Josheb

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I am all for the full context...
The evidence says otherwise.

It is not a matter up for debate. The text was taken out of context and there is no defending that practice, explaining it away or justifying it. The correct response is something like, "You're right, Josh, thanks for the correction; I appreciate it," and whether or not you adjust your thinking, doctrine, and practice accordingly is up to you.
I could have just put the whole epistle in there but you wouldn't have the slightest clue what to make of it.
And we're done.


May God bless you accordingly. I encourage you to take a week off from internet forums so as to grab hold firmly of the reality you have no idea what others you've never met are or are not clued to. Log, not speck, DV.

Learn to keep the posts about the posts and recognize the hypocrisy of attempting to preach about good works while disobeying scripture.
 
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PaulCyp1

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No, works won't "do" it, because salvation is a free gift of God that we either accept or reject. But here's the thing ... If one has truly accepted Jesus Christ, their life is transformed. They begin to live as Jesus told us to live, turning away from sin and caring for the poor and needy among us, which means works of Christian charity. Those who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ, but doesn't care about others, are deluding themselves. Works don't save us, but they are an essential result of being saved.
 
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Deus Vult!

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The evidence says otherwise.

It is not a matter up for debate. The text was taken out of context and there is no defending that practice, explaining it away or justifying it. The correct response is something like, "You're right, Josh, thanks for the correction; I appreciate it," and whether or not you adjust your thinking, doctrine, and practice accordingly is up to you.

And we're done.


May God bless you accordingly. I encourage you to take a week off from internet forums so as to grab hold firmly of the reality you have no idea what others you've never met are or are not clued to. Log, not speck, DV.

If you are an Antinomianist and you have studied St.Jude before, maybe you would say 10,20,50, 100 times, then what good would it do to include the entire epistle now?

I do not admit of pulling the verse out of context at all, there is strong evidence that it may not apply to anyone other than those misled believer that subscribe to the heresies of "Faith Alone" and "Antinomianism".
Also, you jumped into the thread a little late, I had cited all these following verses earlier before I brought up the verse from St. Jude.
Here was my earlier reply to another "Antinoman":
"Luke 13:23-35
23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”
He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
30 Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the
kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who
is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many
mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from
me, you workers of lawlessness.’

1 John 2:3
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Philippians 2:12
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Finally if this were true, that once you are "saved" you are always saved then please explain this passage:

2 Peter 2:21

…20 "If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned away from the holy commandment passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”…


1st Corinthians 9:27
24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Right after this - 27th verse of Chapter 9 - St.Paul literally warns of many examples of people that fell from grace in the Old Testament as a warning for the new people that received the New Covenant in Jesus."
 
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PuerAzaelis

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Apparently there is nothing else to talk about at CF apart from faith versus works?

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. VIII:
When the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely, these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, "without which it is impossible to please God" and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, "if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise," as the Apostle says, "grace is no more grace."

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch. XVI:
Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: "Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name"; and "Do not lose confidence, which hath a great reward." Hence, to those who work well "unto the end" and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.
 
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timothyu

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Apparently there is nothing else to talk about at CF apart from faith versus works?
Fortunately mod bias seems restricted to threads about Trump so the topic is allowed to flourish as it should.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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There are NO verses in the Bible, both Testaments included... that say Jesus, once in you, will leave you if you are a bad Christian, etc.
He is sealed in there, along with the Holy Spirit, unless the bible is lying.

Jesus does promise you Eternal Life, and this promise has NO CONDITIONS, once you are born again, unless Jesus is lying. (Now, heretics/ legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

There are NO verses in the Bible, both testaments included, that say you can fall out of Christ, or become disconnected from Christ. (now heretics /Legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

And there is a reason for that...

You can't.

=====================================================

People who are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in Christ...who talk about "holding unto your faith, is how you keep yourself saved", have not understood that God does not save you by your faith. What He does is accept your faith, to then SAVE YOU BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS. "faith is counted as righteousness", but...faith is not the Blood of Jesus..>Its just the means that God accepts to give you that Blood Atonement and the Righteousness of Christ....as "the GIFT of Righteousness". = BORN AGAIN.

Think of this. Think of all the things that a heretic- religious person believes that they have to do, so that God will take them and keep them... Now do all those things...., keep the Torah, keep the commandments, keep the law, love God and your neighbor as yourself, be water baptized........but do this also.........Take Jesus off the Cross. Put Him back into heaven. No cross, No blood, no death, no sacrifice.

Now, keep doing all that stuff. Keep those commandments. Live that holy life.. Take those sacraments. Join that "one true church"... Keep that golden rule. Get water baptized a few times " for the remission of your sin". Love your neighbor as yourself. Keep the law. Die a Martyr..... Do all that for 1000 yrs.

Are you saved by any or all of it?

I'll ask you again, are you saved by any or all of it? Are your sins forgiven by all that? Are you Born Again by that 1000 yrs of WORKS?

You're not?

And why is that?

If you can answer that correctly, in your own heart, then you are describing the Gospel of the GRACE OF GOD, in Truth.
For some of you, that'll be the first time you ever realized it.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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Fortunately mod bias seems restricted to threads about Trump so the topic is allowed to flourish as it should.

Interesting point. One can easily get their hands spanked on the political threads while these seem freely feisty.
 
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dqhall

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People who are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in Christ...who talk about "holding unto your faith, is how you keep yourself saved", have not understood that God does not save you by your faith. What He does is accept your faith, to then SAVE YOU BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS. "faith is counted as righteousness", but...faith is not the Blood of Jesus..>Its just the means that God accepts to give you that Blood Atonement and the Righteousness of Christ....as "the GIFT of Righteousness". = BORN AGAIN
Jesus taught faith is nothing short of a miracle.

After Jesus descended from the Mount of Transfiguration, probably Mt. Hermon, Jesus healed a boy handicapped by seizures. It was called casting out a demon back then. The disciples wanted to know why they could not cast out the demon.

Matthew 17:20 He said to them, “Because of your unbelief. For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you...’

Those who are saved will do good things like Jesus did.
 
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timothyu

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Interesting point. One can easily get their hands spanked on the political threads while these seem freely feisty.
Depends on which governance seems more important, man's or God's.
 
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Beanieboy

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There are NO verses in the Bible, both Testaments included... that say Jesus, once in you, will leave you if you are a bad Christian, etc.
He is sealed in there, along with the Holy Spirit, unless the bible is lying.

Jesus does promise you Eternal Life, and this promise has NO CONDITIONS, once you are born again, unless Jesus is lying. (Now, heretics/ legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

There are NO verses in the Bible, both testaments included, that say you can fall out of Christ, or become disconnected from Christ. (now heretics /Legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

In prayer once, God showed me that we do good works, and God loves us. We stumble and sin against our neighbor, and God loves us. His love is unconditional, and you can never be separated from that love.

And suddenly, I felt freed. I was free from the fear of walking around on eggshells when it came to obedience and the law, the lie that if you make a mistake, you not only run the risk of losing your salvation, but also the love of God himself. In showing me that while he may not be happy with when we sin, it doesn’t change his love for me. No, I didn’t think, “Woohoo! Vegas here I come!” I thought, “if God’s love is unconditional, I don’t have to fear that I may, in a moment of weakness, lose it.” I was free from that fear.

While we are to strive to be the best version of ourselves, God is aware of our imperfections and accepts us as we are, and loves us.

Where the controversy starts is that we are saved through faith and grace alone, but faith and grace without works is dead. That’s very logical to me. If you say that you want to follow Jesus, invite Christ and the HS to dwell within you, it is the HS that begins to change you through Christ’s unconditional love to love your neighbor as yourself.

He also showed me that all he had been asking from me was to accept his love. Hearing a constant message that we are sinners, fallen, God can’t look at us except through the rose coloured glasses of the blood of Jesus, as well as the Church’s obsession on one topic, many times even being told I was hated by God, I loved God, but in thinking me unworthy of love, was shown him holding his arms out with love, but in almost 40 years, I didn’t accept it. And when I did, I was aware that that was all he was asking of me. What I do after that was my decision.

And what I found was, having that love of God, that finally allowed me to love myself, I was then to even clearer and easier love my neighbor. Acting in love - asking someone who looked upset if they were ok, helping someone without asking for something in return, being kind, realizing that my ideas and understanding and reality may be very different from another, and that’s ok. I may learn from it, and it may make my reality a little more accurate. And when in doubt, I pray to the Spirit and seek guidance. But works have become so second nature, I am more like the Sheep that say, “When? When did I see you hungry and feed you? Are you sure that was me? And how could I not offer food to my neighbor if they have none of their own? I would want someone to help me. It’s not even worth mentioning.”

It doesn’t grant you salvation, but if you are serious about following Jesus, that entails loving God by loving you neighbor as yourself. If you are a seasoned Christian, and lack that love, disregard those two commandments, which are the two greatest, then you have missed the point.

Say I have a wife. I may buy her flowers because I know how much she enjoys them. I may write her poetry to share that part of me with her, and express my love in a more lyrical way. I may surprise her by cleaning the house before she gets home or making dinner, as a gift to her.

Does that mean I have earned her love, and she owes it to me? Not at all. I give her all of these expressions of my love, asking for nothing in return, because I have love in my heart for her, and it makes me happy to see her happy.

That’s how I would describe the issue of works. I love my neighbor, even my enemy who curses me, because God loved me first, and it is my way of thanking him. It can be hard sometimes, and if it is, I pray for that kind of love, and receive it to give away. I easily forgive others and a thank you for God forgiving me so freely.

Scripturally, people will argue that with the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, that the goats did not feed someone who was hungry, clothe the naked, because in denying the least, they have denied Christ himself.

Does this mean that you should feed someone who is hungry because “I’m your Father and I said so?” Out of the obligation to maintain your salvation?

No. You do it because you have compassion in your heart, as Christ had compassion for us. You feed the hungry person, because as yourself, if you were desperate for food, you would want someone to help feed you, so you love your neighbor as yourself by doing unto them, for its own sake. The more one takes the opportunity to actively love their neighbor, the more natural it becomes, not even thinking that what you are doing is somehow getting you a gold star, but as the Good Samaritan, you can’t just walk by a man who was beaten, and do nothing. Identifying with the person attacked, you help them without thinking, not needing a thank you, but only making sure they are cared for.

Christ said that a bad tree bears bad fruit, a good tree bears good fruit.
As one matures, and begins to fruit, fruit of the Spirit: love, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

If the person is a seasoned Christian, yet shows anger towards “the world,” condemnation for anyone outside of their congregation, and sometimes within, but forgiving of himself, callousness, self-righteousness, deceit....

Well, that is a sign of a bad tree. They are the most vocal, and seem to think they are the ultimate authority on spiritual matters, and then claim that their opinions are exactly in line with God’s. Any differing opinions are dismissed and the person condemned to hell. They usually lack love, and will make the focal point of Christianity to not sin, versus loving their neighbor actively, so while they may not feed a person is hungry, they are quite proud of themselves for not killing or robbing the hungry homeless person, bragging about how they obey the law.
 
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SkyWriting

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There are NO verses in the Bible, both Testaments included... that say Jesus, once in you, will leave you if you are a bad Christian, etc.He is sealed in there, along with the Holy Spirit, unless the bible is lying.Jesus does promise you Eternal Life, and this promise has NO CONDITIONS, once you are born again, unless Jesus is lying. (Now, heretics/ legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)There are NO verses in the Bible, both testaments included, that say you can fall out of Christ, or become disconnected from Christ. (now heretics /Legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)And there is a reason for that...You can't.

I can explain. People can be "Wetted" with water...and attend chuch
be just be "Along for the ride".....become disenchanted...."fall away"
and them come back. Like the prodigal son, we welcome them back.

But they never had the Spirit in them to start with.
It's impossible for the Spirit to leave. As you say.
 
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Beanieboy

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Hope this isn’t to off topic, but I was reading a book called How to Quit Church Without Quitting God. There was a very interesting section where he talked about his frustration with people who evangelize. The conversation was something like:

Jesus died for your sins!
That’s great.
But you must ask forgiveness of your sins, and ask Christ into your heart to be saved?
So, now he isn’t my Saviour?
He most certainly is! Hallelujah!
...Ok.....
But you have to say this prayer in order to receive his salvation.
Now, he’s not my saviour again???

His point was:
Either Jesus died for the sins of the world or he didn’t.
Regardless of whether one accepts Jesus, either he took away the sin of the world, or he didn’t.
Our work - of confessing our sin, asking Jesus into our heart - suggests that we must somehow “activate” that salvation.

What do you think?
 
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