Your views on illegal immigration...

[NavyGuy7]

My honest belief is that while illegal immigrants are breaking our laws, they are in fact, human beings. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Moses and the Israelites ever going through customs or immigration on their Exodus. Yes, they are illegal immigrants, but that doesn't mean that they are objects. And it's not just Mexican immigrants, but also alot of other nationalities as well.

You have to remember two things:

One, they were God's people.

Two, they invaded another country and took it over. Canaan, anyone?

Besides, what's to stop terrorists hopping the border? Eventually they're going to try it.

 

[holdon]

They are breaking US Law and constantly breaking US law

Or are you such a person that laws are of no use.

Yes, they are breaking US law. That's why they are called "illegal". But the ones that made that law were once "illegal" themselves. Who made the "US"?

And per your allegation that "if it is for betterment it's fine" then it's just a matter of the pot calling the kettle black...

 

[KarrieTex]

The US was not breaking any immrigration laws when they decided to fight for the freedom of the country. I am also thinking you aren't an American or never paid attention to US history when you took. Speaks a lot there.

The ILLEGALS are breaking our laws to come over and send 16 billion dollars (from one report) back to Mexico.

Your little argument is bunk.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Of course everybody uses this argument. And to the extend that you entertain the idea of "property", various claimants to the same property will challenge that.

If you step into your neighbors car, does it make it yours? Maybe after you have driven it for 1 year, 2 years, 10 years???

With respect to global territory, there is no "title insurance". So, whoever is the strongest can wrestle and bully the others out of it. So, who gives you the right to say "this is my land" and you cannot come here? Answer: no higher authority does so. (unless you recognize the UN as higher authority; but then you would also have to submit to their free circulation of people principle and allow the immigrants....)

The bottom line is: you apply your own "law" to a territory of your own (one sided) claims so as to exclude others to come there. Hence the issue of illegal immigration.

Now, we as christians are to obey the law of civil authorities. But whether those laws are right is quite another matter....

Yep. This is true.

 

[holdon]

The US was not breaking any immrigration laws when they decided to fight for the freedom of the country.

They broke all existing laws by definition as they repudiated the existing government.

 

[Suomipoika]

Oh, I see, I'm supposed to be perfect, walk on water and kiss the feet of a kid who has 0 life experience, but wants to preach about socialized citizenship adn socialized medicine and everything that is against the constitution that I fought and bled for?

"Not being perfect" is not an excuse to commit sin by straight out laughing at someone who's trying to challenge you to think and argue maybe in an even better way for your position.

And if you want to think and argue in a distinctively Christian way about these matters, then sorry, but simply referring to your constitution is not a good argument, however much it might stand for good things. Your constitution was largely drawn up by enlightment-influenced believers in 'monotheism' rather than evangelical/'biblical' Christians. Even 8 of the signatories were professing free masons. Jefferson refuted the miracles of Christ. Get your arguments rather from the Bible. Someone here tried to argue how Abraham, Moses and many many other Biblical characters were strangers in a strange land and other things, and that - as an illumination from the Bible, remembering that we are on a Christian forum - was already twice as weighty as any vague reference to any secular constitution, whether that of Finland or of the United States.

Sorry, not going to happen. He's still living at home with mommy and daddy taking care of him. So excuse me if I dont' take his position on something this complex seriously based on a couple of summers working along side illegal immigrants.

Argument against one's personality. Can't you really come up with anything better and more mature? Would you say the very same things and laugh the same belitteling laughs in an face-to-face encounter?

He may be young and g enuine, but he's completely naive in this matter...so yes, I will laugh if I feel like it. I've earned that.

You have not earned one single nasty, belitteling laugh at anyone here! You hear me??

You are continuously sinning by being arrogant, mean, and belitteling toward a young guy. Next time I see you acting in the same way, I'll seriously think about reporting you. For God's sake, you're a super moderator and you're just laughing at people here and trying to justify it! Wake up!

 

[Gwenyfur]

"Not being perfect" is not an excuse to commit sin by straight out laughing at someone who's trying to challenge you to think and argue maybe in an even better way for your position.

laughter is about as soft as my answers get on this issue. again...it's our country...what do you truly care?

And if you want to think and argue in a distinctively Christian way about these matters, then sorry, but simply referring to your constitution is not a good argument, however much it might stand for good things. Your constitution was largely drawn up by enlightment-influenced believers in 'monotheism' rather than evangelical/'biblical' Christians. Even 8 of the signatories were professing free masons. Jefferson refuted the miracles of Christ. Get your arguments rather from the Bible. Someone here tried to argue how Abraham, Moses and many many other Biblical characters were strangers in a strange land and other things, and that - as an illumination from the Bible, remembering that we are on a Christian forum - was already twice as weighty as any vague reference to any secular constitution, whether that of Finland or of the United States.

that constitution is the framework for the laws that are being broken by these illegal immigrants, making it completely applicable.

Argument against one's personality.

Can't you really come up with anything better and more mature? Would you say the very same things and laugh the same belitteling laughs in an face-to-face encounter?

yeah...I would

You have not earned one single nasty, belitteling laugh at anyone here! You hear me??

You are continuously sinning by being arrogant, mean, and belitteling toward a young guy. Next time I see you acting in the same way, I'll seriously think about reporting you. For God's sake, you're a super moderator and you're just laughing at people here and trying to justify it! Wake up!

I've worn the uniform of my country, I've bled and been broken for my country and it's constitution, don't you dare tell me what I have and haven't earned the right to do in defense of my country and it's constitution.

 

[irateional]

laughter is about as soft as my answers get on this issue. again...it's our country...what do you truly care?

that constitution is the framework for the laws that are being broken by these illegal immigrants, making it completely applicable.



yeah...I would




I've worn the uniform of my country, I've bled and been broken for my country and it's constitution, don't you dare tell me what I have and haven't earned the right to do in defense of my country and it's constitution.

Look. Experience means nothing if you haven't the logical leg upon which to stand. We ask nothing more than a simple logical refutation.

 

[irateional]

Your number 5 is off dearie.

A big majority of the land that was annexed into America that was SW was Texas and it wasn't stolen from them.

Come to think of it so is your 2. Revolution for the betterment of it's people is NOT stealing.

I'm not so sure.

The American Revolution only had the backing of around 25% of America. The rest were either apathetic or opposed.

Secondly, are you saying the US didn't exterminate the American Indians when they settled America?

 

[Suomipoika]

laughter is about as soft as my answers get on this issue. again...it's our country...what do you truly care?

We belong to the same 'country', namely the Kingdom of Heaven. I do care when I see a Christian acting in a condescending manner toward another, younger Christian.

that constitution is the framework for the laws that are being broken by these illegal immigrants, making it completely applicable.

Once again, my primary concern is not so much the actual question of the OP. I realize complexity of that issue and how I can't have the same insight on it as the Americans here.

I have two concerns:

1) Blitteling attitude and conduct is always a sin that should be repented of.

2) I very much respect the constitution of my own country, however I don't hold it as some kind of 'sacred' document. I appreciate the fact that you respect the constitution of your country, too. Do you hold the constitution of the United States as a 'sacred' document, a one that could be assigned a divine authority?

I've worn the uniform of my country, I've bled and been broken for my country and it's constitution, don't you dare tell me what I have and haven't earned the right to do in defense of my country and it's constitution.

...and still, after all this, the Bible says clearly that Jesus Christ should be your one and only 'boast'. I respect how you've served your country that way. My grandfather also fought in two wars against the Soviet Union, and we prevailed against such a giant of an opponent. He and many others fought for this country, its independence and its constitution. However, he was a humble man and I never heard him laughing in a nasty manner at anyone who had a differing opinion from his.

You mots certainly have earned your right to defend your country and its constitution, but you most certainly have not - should I say, in the name of Jesus Christ - earned a right to be proud and boastful about it and ridicule and laugh at those that challenge you into a more in-depth argument with their different viewpoints.

 

[irateional]

It says, quite frankly, that their government sucks.


I have very mixed emotions & thoughts about this whole Mexican Immigration problem (we all might as well be honest enough to admit that when we say "Illegal Immigrants" everyone is talking about Mexicans). For many years, I lived in a community in Minnesota that was 30-35% Mexican. They came because of a huge packing plant that paid good wages and gave good benefits.

Most of us cannot imagine the horrors many of our Mexican neighbors have had to endure - on both sides of the border. Extortion, forced prostitution, abject poverty, you name it... Many of them are desperate, calloused people. On one level, they've almost been forced to cheat, lie and steal. Still, most of them are very family-centered people, and very religious. And I found most of them to be extremely warm and friendly.

But many of the Mexicans have brought a "unique" set of problems with them. Alcohol is a huge problem - and many Mexicans run into all kinds of trouble with the law, due to driving while drunk. They also tend to get into a lot of fights, mostly while drunk. In addition, the men tend to be very "macho", and are very overt in their sexual advances toward women. This does not go over very big when it's young teen girls that they're hitting on, or "regular" white women.


That's just the tip of the iceberg, as I see it. I don't know what all the answers are. But I do know that they won't be found unless we start being honest about what the PROBLEMS are.



By the way, I hear that Dolt McCoy's back-up is a guy named Hector "Poncho" Gonzalez. Is this true?

Of course. I know that there are negatives. Let's fix the system to accomodate everyone.

That's what I'm saying. Look, our government wastes billions in war. I'd rather see some of that money go into something constructive.

 

[irateional]

Look. This debate is really not going anywhere.

But heres' the 3 optinos you have.

Option A: Build the great wall of America, close the border, deport every illegal and enforce some form of draconian border patrol. Of course the only issues with this are...that the economic impact will be more devestating than you realize. That you can't possibly afford building a wall and patrolling the border. Do you want the border patrol to become the 5th branch of the military?

Option B: Enforce existing immigration laws as they should be. Deport illegals. But also invest money into repairing the governments and economies of central and south America, particularly Mexico, Guatemala, Colombia and the Dominican Republic.

Option C: Adopt an open border and do one of two things. Either end gov. social programs and thus the "tax-payer cost" of immigration, or use federal government money to reinforce beleaguered social programs in the Southern Border states. The cultural issues that you talk about can be dealt with by targeting gov. social programs to "reeducate" immigrants in their culture. The advanatage of this is that you're effecting other cultures in a positive manner and increasing American influence in the Central and South American states.

I'm just going to end on a simple plea to emotion. Below the Statue of Liberty, there's a worn plaque that says "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses." Being the great-grandson of Italian immigrants, we faced the same issues. Many of us weren't legal immigrants. We were discriminated against, and considered to be womanizing, Catholic scoundrels. Don't lose sight of your roots and your wonderful place in society.

 

[irateional]

You are blessed with wisdom.

God bless you.

carey

Neither of you are. Should we be fearing Christians ont he basis of the Bible having commandments from God to kill non-believers? Afterall, God could issue a proclamation any day now to kill all Canadians and the Christians would have to attack! O NOES!

In reality, Islam is no less or more violent than any other religious system. Islam simply says "yes, war is good", while in Christianity, churches say "whatever your nation does is good" which in reality has no difference.

There are schools of Islamic thought (wahhabism) that are violent, just as their are Christian schools of thought that seek to take over the world (Dominionism). I'm not saying Islam is flowers and bunnies. I'm saying that neither is any other religion.

Most of the antagonism against the US, and such is not religious in nature. Nor is it from poverty. It involves a combination of cultural/religious grievances against US intrustions, backed up by economic and political grievances that combine to create the "AMERICA IS THE GREAT SATAN" mentality. Of course, we aren't going to get rid of the crazy's by peace. But that's not who we're going for.

The best way to end that is to destroy their culture. Not by force of arms, but by exporting American goods and ideals, and by basically, appealing to their governments desire to gain power. Instead of trying to get Iran to stop their nuke program, we should go in, help them build a nuclear power grid, and at the same time, flood their economy with American goods. The best way to kill the insurgency isn't to kill the insurgent. It's to make the insurgent's citizen fans not like him anymore, and to even see him as legitimate threat to their way of life.

 

[Suomipoika]

In reality, Islam is no less or more violent than any other religious system. Islam simply says "yes, war is good", while in Christianity, churches say "whatever your nation does is good" which in reality has no difference.

There are schools of Islamic thought (wahhabism) that are violent, just as their are Christian schools of thought that seek to take over the world (Dominionism). I'm not saying Islam is flowers and bunnies. I'm saying that neither is any other religion.

Well, you could argue that there are 'true' schools within each religious system and also that there are schools that are more or less flawed and deviant from the original, orthodox ones. Some could argue that dominionism/theonomy belongs to the catogory of seriously flawed schools within Christianity and thus does not represent 'true Christianity' at all. Someone could also argue that the more 'peaceful' schools within Islam don't represent the original faith of Mohammed, while some could also argue counterwise. You get my point?

Also, I don't believe the "whatever your nation does is good" is a very common way of thinking within the Christian church worldwide, not even in America..?

The best way to end that is to destroy their culture. Not by force of arms, but by exporting American goods and ideals, and by basically, appealing to their governments desire to gain power. Instead of trying to get Iran to stop their nuke program, we should go in, help them build a nuclear power grid, and at the same time, flood their economy with American goods. The best way to kill the insurgency isn't to kill the insurgent. It's to make the insurgent's citizen fans not like him anymore, and to even see him as legitimate threat to their way of life.

Are you... serious about this idea of 'inculturation'...??

 

[irateional]

Well, you could argue that there are 'true' schools within each religious system and also that there are schools that are more or less flawed and deviant from the original, orthodox ones. Some could argue that dominionism/theonomy belongs to the catogory of seriously flawed schools within Christianity and thus does not represent 'true Christianity' at all. Someone could also argue that the more 'peaceful' schools within Islam don't represent the original faith of Mohammed, while some could also argue counterwise. You get my point?

Also, I don't believe the "whatever your nation does is good" is a very common way of thinking within the Christian church worldwide, not even in America..?



Are you... serious about this idea of 'inculturation'...??

Well, the latter worked awfully well with China.

 

[Gwenyfur]

We belong to the same 'country', namely the Kingdom of Heaven. I do care when I see a Christian acting in a condescending manner toward another, younger Christian.

well...for starters this topic isn't about the kingdom of heaven, it's about america and a problem with illegal activity.

Once again, my primary concern is not so much the actual question of the OP. I realize complexity of that issue and how I can't have the same insight on it as the Americans here.

I have two concerns:

1) Blitteling attitude and conduct is always a sin that should be repented of.

2) I very much respect the constitution of my own country, however I don't hold it as some kind of 'sacred' document. I appreciate the fact that you respect the constitution of your country, too. Do you hold the constitution of the United States as a 'sacred' document, a one that could be assigned a divine authority?

it is not "belittling" to point out that someone so young, who condones and illegal activity is both naive and wrong.

...and still, after all this, the Bible says clearly that Jesus Christ should be your one and only 'boast'. I respect how you've served your country that way. My grandfather also fought in two wars against the Soviet Union, and we prevailed against such a giant of an opponent. He and many others fought for this country, its independence and its constitution. However, he was a humble man and I never heard him laughing in a nasty manner at anyone who had a differing opinion from his.

You mots certainly have earned your right to defend your country and its constitution, but you most certainly have not - should I say, in the name of Jesus Christ - earned a right to be proud and boastful about it and ridicule and laugh at those that challenge you into a more in-depth argument with their different viewpoints.

It's called "Freedom of Speech" protected by the 1st ammendment. As for the rest...ya just wouldn't get it ...

 

[Suomipoika]

well...for starters this topic isn't about the kingdom of heaven, it's about america and a problem with illegal activity.

For starters, in the quality of a super moderator of this very section you should know pretty well that this section is called"Christian current events", and not "Amercian politics". That means that you should know that this subject in the first place doesn't fall into the category of "Christian current events" at all. And you, as a super moderator of this very section, should know pretty well that this fact gives me a full lisence to comment on this thread and bring up the perspective of the universal body of Christ.

it is not "belittling" to point out that someone so young, who condones and illegal activity is both naive and wrong.

Laughing at someone simply because they are suggesting a different kind of solution to the problem at hand is either belitteling and or arrogant and mean in some other way. And also, it doesn't look or sound very convincing, in case convincing the other side and the spectators is your goal.

It's called "Freedom of Speech" protected by the 1st ammendment.

Our constitution protects the freedom of speech, too. And after all, according to surveys, Finland should be the freest nation in the world in terms of civil liberties, freedom of the press, low corruption levels and political rights. So I do know pretty well what you are talking about.

However, my primary constitution as a Christian is the Bible, not the constitution of Finland. And that constitution clearly gives me some kind of parameters within which to practice my freedom of speech. Some people might think that 1.Corinthians13 is a worn-out passage that has become too much of a read-through slogan, but I believe that is one of the strongest and most wonderful passages in the Bible as for how to relate to our 'brothers and sisters'.

As for the rest...ya just wouldn't get it ...

What? I wouldn't get what? You see, we can't find out whether or not I would "get the rest" before you become a little more explicit and tell me what it is you think I wouldn't get.

 

[Suomipoika]

Well, the latter worked awfully well with China.

Yeah.. but it didn't work that well with Christian mission efforts in Africa, for example. The gospel began to spread rapidly in Africa only after its propagation was passed over to the local Christians. And now we see the result: the geographical focus of the Church has already shifted to the southern continents, Africa as well as Asia and Latin America.

 

[David Brider]

Seems to me the Bible has some pretty clear statements to make about the way we should treat the alien and the foreigner in "our" land.

Seems to me the American constitution and law is being used to justify some pretty unBiblical attitudes to, and treatment of, aliens and foreigners in America.

Seems to me that American Christians would be doing the worldwide body of Christ a great service if instead of kicking up a fuss about "illegal immigrants", they instead kicked up a fuss about the law that renders them illegal, and meanwhile got on with treating these "illegal immigrants" with the dignity and respect which befits people who were created in the image of the God who died for them.

I hope that's not too much to ask.

David.

 

[jad123]

Seems to me the Bible has some pretty clear statements to make about the way we should treat the alien and the foreigner in "our" land.

Seems to me the American constitution and law is being used to justify some pretty unBiblical attitudes to, and treatment of, aliens and foreigners in America.

Seems to me that American Christians would be doing the worldwide body of Christ a great service if instead of kicking up a fuss about "illegal immigrants", they instead kicked up a fuss about the law that renders them illegal, and meanwhile got on with treating these "illegal immigrants" with the dignity and respect which befits people who were created in the image of the God who died for them.

I hope that's not too much to ask.

David.

America is a nation of immigrants. From the beginning, people have come here for freedom and prosperity. Christians should show love and concern for illegal immigrants but we should also oppose amnesty legislation and enforce the immigration laws. Immigration is the legal means by which one becomes a citizen.Those individuals that have entered without following US laws are not immigrants as calling them that is an insult to those who come here legally, they are illegal aliens. Exo 12:49 There shall be one law to the native, and to the visitor that stays among you. One law for both. Illegally entering our country you are not following the law.