Your view on birth control?

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Okay...gotta jump back in for a moment!

According to your profile, you are a man. You have never had, nor will you ever, experience crippling menstrual cramps. You will never experience that kind of pain that is so excruciating that you can't even walk, but you literally are crawling from room to room. Bleeding so heavy that you don't even dare go out in public! Needing to make the choice between taking an allergy pill and avoiding a migraine, but whose side effects intensify cramps. Either way, we're talking a sick day or two!!


I have experienced these symptoms. Fortunately for me, they lessened as I got older...when I was in high school, I missed at least a day each month because of my cramps.

It is not just a matter of "discomfort," and many times, Tylenol and ibuprofen just don't cut it.

Had I known that there was something available to take for the pain, you'd better believe I would have taken it. Many women DON'T grow out of this. I think God understands - and I believe that He is bigger than a little pill if He really wants a child to be born.

Yes, He still heals today! But sometimes He provides us with the wisdom and technology of modern medicine to do so. Doctors are our allies in healing, not God's competitors!!

I am a man who has delibating back pain that makes me bedridden at times, have had kidney stones, been shot, and more. I know from pain and I know from recurring pain and I would not risk a child's life to cure my pain. The argument that I am a man and cannot understand doesn't even begin to hold water when are talking about the possibility of killing an unborn child. Sure medical science is great in a lot of cases but it also is not, just look at the abortion industry which medical science and performed by doctors. We are talking about the potential killing of an unborn child so you tell me in what way does that compare to any amount of pain. I can simply bend over wrong and be in so much pain that I either have to take narcotic pain killers such as Vicodin or I cannot even sit up or roll over and yet if there was a way to end that pain and it would risk a child's life I would never do it.

The argument that I am man also fails when you go to scripture and see that elders and pastors, those responsible for doctrine are men. I may not be your elder or pastor but my being a man does not in any negate what I have to say. It is in fact a strawman argument. I am presenting sound reasoning. I frankly don't care how much pain there is, the risk of a childs life is not worth it. If risking a child's life for your own comfort is worth it then I would suggest a re-evaluation of your values. Look at what scripture says about just friends:
[bible]John 15:13[/bible]
How much more are we to love our own flesh and blood? What does Christ himself say about children?
[bible]Luke 18:16[/bible]
Show me scripture where abortificants are allright, show me where killing an unborn child is allright and you will more than convince me but wuntil such a time I will say that no pain is so great as to justify the killing of an innocent unborn child.

 

[kidsminister]

flesh99 -

You are definitely right about one thing: You are not my elder, nor are you my pastor, nor are you my husband. So you have absolutely zero authority over me, whether you are a man, a woman, or a fish . I hold to the Scriptures because they are the Word of God, not because they were put to paper by men!

I understand that men do feel debilitating pain at times - my husband has had kidney stones and other such pain as well. I do not mean to belittle the pain that you have been in in the past...I have sat with my husband in the ER for four hours waiting for his morphine drip to take effect just so that he could be relieved enough to get to sleep.

The point I was making was that cramps, for many women, are not merely "discomfort," but excruciating pain. And if birth control pills can regulate a woman's cycle so that she does not experience said pain, but she is not completely knocked out (as in the case of most prescription pain killers), then I am sorry, but I don't see a problem with that.

God looks at the motives of a person's heart. It DOES say that in the Bible . For the record, I know a teenage girl who was taking BC pills because of extreme menstrual pain, and she (unfortunately!) had sex with her boyfriend and ended up getting pregnant the first time. The baby is almost 6 months old now - perfectly healthy. I could tell you many stories of women who were on the pill, taking it exactly the way you're supposed to take it, and ended up pregnant and conceiving healthy babies.

So saying that the pill will cause an abortion if the egg is fertilized is a fallacy, and is misleading information.

Besides, as I said, I really don't care. I hope you have 20 children if that's what you want, or what God gives you. The God I serve is sovereign enough to give me a child no matter what the circumstances, if that's what He wants for my life (and, as I've said about a dozen times, I DON'T personally use BC pills!).

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

So saying that the pill will cause an abortion if the egg is fertilized is a fallacy, and is misleading information.

The pill can in fact fail and women get pregnant. It does attempt to prevent insemination but also thickens the mucous in the uterous and can prevent implantation. It CAN in fact cause abortion, it is the sceondary methodology built in. To say it cannot is fallacy and misleading. Just go read the bottom of this page: http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html and get the book. NO pain, no matter how bad is worth risking aborting a child. Until you can show me that aborting a child because you are in pain in backed up scripturally then not a single one of your arguments holds water. Does the motive really matter if an unborn child is killed? I think not. Women who do not know what the pill does are misinformed and many upon being informed stop taking it.

Here is quote from the link provided:

How does the Pill work?

The Pill has three mechanisms of action which can easily be looked up in the Physician's Desk Reference.

1) Sometimes, the Pill suppresses ovulation. When this happens, an egg is not released and conception cannot occur. (It's important to read on and find out about the high rates of breakthrough ovulation. When ovulation is not suppressed, pregnancy can occur.)

2) The Pill also works to thicken the woman's cervical mucus which can "restrict" sperm from moving up the reproductive tract toward the egg.

3) One way the Pill causes early abortions is that it interfers with the flexing motions and the cilia movement of the fallopian tubes. These changes slow the transportation of newly conceived child from the fallopian tubes to the womb. Unfortunately, many small babies starve to death in the fallopian tubes because chemicals caused changes that prevented them from reaching the womb in time to be nourished.

4) Another way the Pill causes early abortions: If your tiny baby survives the ride down the fallopian tube to your womb, the Pill will almost always cause the endometrium (the lining of your uterus) to reject your child. Chemical reactions often cause the lining of your womb to become thin, shriveled and unable to support implantation of your newly conceived child.

This means that in almost every case, your new child will not be able to attach to the wall of your womb where he or she would normally live, grow and receive nourishment for 9 months. This means your tiny baby will starve to death and his or her remains will be passed along in your next bleeding cycle. (The "Study of Abortion Deaths Commission" estimates that this happens in women in America who use the Pill approximately 1 to 4 million times each year.)

The chemicals that cause these early abortions are called abortifacients which is the medical term for any chemical agent that causes an abortion.

There are two methods by which the pill causes abortions.

"The Physicians' Desk Reference" quoted a Searle brochure (Searle is a major pharmaceutical manufacturer of the Pill) which states that the mini-pill: makes the womb (uterus) less receptive to any fertilized egg that reaches it. (Emphasis added)

"All the measures which impair the viability of the zygote anytime between the instant of fertilization and the completion of labor constitute, in the strict sense, procedures for inducing abortion" (source: Public Health Service Leaflet no. 1066, US Dept of Health, Education, and Welfare, 1963, 27). This includes chemical abortions like those caused by the Pill, Depo-Provera and Norplant.

The facts are not debatable really, the question is how much you really are willing to risk to feel comfortable. If killing a child is allright with you then I really thing you should examine your values very carefully because they in no way line up with scripture. I know I am being blunt but I fail to see how a fundamentalist could remotely support taking something that has been proven to cause abortion. In fact the lower dose pills that are more common today have higher rates of ovulation, up to 50%, which means there is an even higher risk of it causing an abortion than with the older high dosage pills. It truly saddnes me to see people arguing in favor of putting more children at risk of death before birth rather than arguing against it.

 

[kidsminister]

Okay, last time:

As I do not use BC pills at all, nor do I strictly follow NFP or use condoms or any other form of birth control, I fail to see how my values are in question here.

The only thing I've ever said or asked in this discussion is:

1. Show me Scripture, other than the story of Onan, that supports the anti-BC position.

2. Women use "the pill" for reasons other than birth control, and many have gotten pregnant while using it; therefore it does not ALWAYS cause abortions if and when it fails to block ovulation.

3. For many women, cramps are more than "a little discomfort," and until medical science comes up with a way to control the pain and still allow them to function in everyday life, birth control pills are the best way to do so. If a woman is fine with being completely out of commission 1-2 days a month, then more power to her. If it were me, I work full time and I only get 6 sick days a year...so that would be out of the question. Fortunately, it's not true for me, so it's a non-issue.

I am not trying to argue with anyone's position on birth control. As I have said, it's a moot point since I do not use it, anyway. Since I have jumped back into this discussion and STILL have not seen anyone post any Scripture specifically condemning birth control (which has been around about as long as sex, so you can't say that it's not specifically addressed because it didn't exist!) other than the story of Onan, I'm jumping back out.

If anyone has any Scripture regarding this issue, feel free to PM me. I'm not interested in someone's opinion or their interpretation of Scripture. Only literal verses or passages that specifically support the anti-BC position, please .

Have a great life...God bless you!!

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Okay, last time:

As I do not use BC pills at all, nor do I strictly follow NFP or use condoms or any other form of birth control, I fail to see how my values are in question here.

The only thing I've ever said or asked in this discussion is:

1. Show me Scripture, other than the story of Onan, that supports the anti-BC position.

Show you more scripture you mean. You have been shown scruipture and you refuse to accept the position that the mojority of Christendom holds. Your values are such that you are arguing for the use of something that has been shown to cause abortions and maybe even completely unbeknownest to the woman as it is obvious that doctors lie about it. Heck read the insert that comes with Ortho, it even says it prevents a feritilized egg from implanting. Any doctor that hasn't even read the packaging for a med they are prescribing cannot be trusted to prescribe medication and any doctor that has read the data and says the pill is not an abortificant is a liar. You are advocating the use of a medication that can and does potentially end unborn lives because some women have pain. Pain pills will take care of the pain and do not present the same risk so why argue for the pill, it doesn't make any sense.

2. Women use "the pill" for reasons other than birth control, and many have gotten pregnant while using it; therefore it does not ALWAYS cause abortions if and when it fails to block ovulation.

No it does not always cause abortion but it can and does. That is not an acceptable risk.

3. For many women, cramps are more than "a little discomfort," and until medical science comes up with a way to control the pain and still allow them to function in everyday life, birth control pills are the best way to do so. If a woman is fine with being completely out of commission 1-2 days a month, then more power to her. If it were me, I work full time and I only get 6 sick days a year...so that would be out of the question. Fortunately, it's not true for me, so it's a non-issue.

So taking the risk of killing a child is acceptable. Read the statistics in the link I provided. Over 1,000,000 chemical abortions in Africa alone per year. Doesn't sound like that small of a risk to me. That is not acceptable. They very fact that it can happen over and over again without the woman knowing it because doctors refuse to tell their patients all of the facts is scary enough, couple that with people saying that it's alright to take that risk because of pain and it's downright disgusting to be honest.

I am not trying to argue with anyone's position on birth control. As I have said, it's a moot point since I do not use it, anyway. Since I have jumped back into this discussion and STILL have not seen anyone post any Scripture specifically condemning birth control (which has been around about as long as sex, so you can't say that it's not specifically addressed because it didn't exist!) other than the story of Onan, I'm jumping back out.

If anyone has any Scripture regarding this issue, feel free to PM me. I'm not interested in someone's opinion or their interpretation of Scripture. Only literal verses or passages that specifically support the anti-BC position, please .

As I said earlier, show scripture specifically adressing the Trinity and that argument will hold water, as it stands MANY doctrines that are widely accepted are not based on clear, literal scripture. If you accept the Trinity then there is no reason not to admit that the story of Onan in fact could address birth control. I have said I wouldn't say block methods are sinful, but it would be sinful to use a chemical method and cause the death of a child. If women were properly informed then it would certainly be sinful, as it stands they are not so people like me try to get the truth to them. The truth is that the pill DOES cuase abortions. To use your logic it's alright to support Planned Parenthood because not everyone that goes through the door gets an abortion.

 

[kidsminister]

flesh99,

Take a deep breath and relax! I PM'ed you, and that's the last I'm going to discuss this topic with you.

God bless .

 

[kidsminister]

It's been real...it's been fun...but I can't say it's been real fun!

Have a good life, everyone! I'm signing of CF for good. I've wasted way too much time this week trying to have an intelligent discussion when people seem to only want to argue and make me out to be the greatest liberal since Hilary Clinton!!

I am not a liberal, by any means. I am extremely pro-life, and have done my homework. I apologize to those of you who feel I am unable to articulate my opinions. Again, I was only interested in having an intelligent and reasonable discussion with other adults of like minds, and it appears that this is not possible.

So, sayonara!! See you in heaven, where birth control won't be an issue at all, because we won't be giving birth (And maybe someone can start a new thread on that topic )

 

[awildflowerlady]

You know, I selected that any method is acceptable (except abortion) but GOD's will can and DOES trump all methods, including abortion!

 

[Ainesis]

The statement was in reference to being accused of putting people in bondage, and I still stand by it. I am by no means trying to keep or put people in bondage.

I can understand that this may not be your intent; I still believe this is the result of your efforts.

I can gather any two Catholics and myself and cover this verse without any issue therefore meeting your standard with the wrongly applied scripture.

Do you stand as a witness with catholics on other issues such as praying to saints, papal infallibility, purgatory, etc.? Or is it only when convenient? The point is that when Scripture refers to two or three witnesses it is a direct reference to the witness of Scripture.

You can always find two or three people willing to stand united for error. They did this to crucify Christ. But can you offer two to three witnesses in Scripture that eplicitly support your view? No. In fact, I would dare to say that there is not even one. If a man speak not according to the law and the prophets, etc.

I am the only person really still debating it but there are at least two others in this thread in agreement with me, and that's just this thread.

That is fine. However, that is not proof of accuracy or truth. People can be in agreement and yet still be in error. The test for truth is not whether you find people who agree with your comments, but whether it holds to the light of Scripture. Your presentation does not.

There is as much support for the idea that birth control is wrong as there is for the understanding of the Trinity that we have.

Again, not according to Scripture. You keep referring to what people may or may not have believed, but people's thoughts/beliefs are not the standard for Truth.

People are free to believe what they choose. But when someon attempts to create a doctrine where there is none, that is in error; that is legalistic, and that is bondage.

Are you really willing to apply your criteria for right doctrine to every doctrine?

Absolutely! Are you?

It is exactly what the verse says. It is a mutual verse:
1 Corinthians 7:5Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
Look at what it says, it speaks of consent but the only reason for giving that consent is a time of prayer and fasting.

So again, I ask you. A husband and wife must be always having sex in your mind unless parying and fasting? This is a command of God? The only time that they can both agree that they do not wich to have sex is when they are praying and fasting?

How as Peter able to have a ministry? Was he always praying and fasting? Shouldn't he have been home with his wife, not defrauding her, unless he never ate again after his ministry began?

What you fail to understand is that if one person desires intimacy and the other doesn't that can be an instance of denial. If neither desire intimacy, there is no denial. In such case, the text does not apply.

The text does not say that married couples can only consent not to have sex when praying and fasting. It states that one should not deny the other sex unless it is to prayer and fasting for a set time.

Agreeing to not have sex places, usually the husband, in a position to be denied as he is likely not going to be able to go the whole time it is necessary without feeling the urge.

That is called self-control. It may also be in some cases a problem with lust, which is not love.

Intimacy between a husband and wife is a beautiful gift from the Lord and is enjoyable for both wife and husband. When this relationship is holy and in order before God, it is just as much of a sacrifice for women as it is for men when equally consenting to abstain. As a man, I can understand how you might not know this.

This instruction is given not to cater to the urges of the man (as you indicate), but to promote a healthy and happy marriage for each.

The majority of Christendom today and throughout history agrees and has agreed that artificial birth control is wrong, from the church fathers to the reformers all the way up to the 1930's. This is not a new doctrine and my interpretation of scripture is no less potentially false than yours.

So now we get to the crux of the matter. First, you have alleged that not just artificial, but other non-artificial forms of birth control are wrong. Are you indicating now that the story of Onan illustrates the use of artificial birth control? Where do you see this artificial birth control condemned in Scriptue?

Second, thank you for admitting that your interpretation is potentially false. That is my point. To attempt to force your "potentially false" interpretation on others is wrong. In areas where Scripture is silent (in my opinion) and where there are not two-three Scriptural witnesses attesting to this truth (to support your understanding), you have no right to create a doctrine around it.

I do not feel God is silent on the matter at all, you can claim the scripture is all day long but I say you overlooking what is in fact laid out and testified to in scripture. Again we go back to applying your logic to all doctrine. You believe in the Trinity and yet is less clearly laid in scripture than this doctrine.

Not at all. There are various texts which support the Trinity throughout Scripture. If you are interested in seeing the, please let me know.

However, the same cannot be said about your stance against birth control.

I feel there is enough backing for the pill being wrong and NFP being wrong that I can safely teach those and as such should.

That is fine with me. You are free to teach what you will. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I have no qualms with your right to teach whatsoever you may choose. But when it is put forth in an open forum and it is in error, I will say so.

Before you respond again please read the rest of what has been said so you have an idea of what I am talking about to begin with instead of basing your idea that I am teaching wrong doctrine on a single post. This is lot like scripture in that aspect, you cannot assume to know what I am teaching without having the context.

That is a very reasonable request. And I apologize if I have misunderstood any of what you are defending here.

However, there are elements of what you have written that are in error and you have not been able to address those.

The text about Onan is not about artificial birth control. Even if you choose to belief it is an admonition against birth control, then that would have to be all forms of birth control. If you believe that Onan was killed for practicing birth control, then how can you condone other forms of birth control?

Further, the text in Corinthians does not indicate the only times a married couple may choose/agree not to have sex. It states the only time when one should deny another. It is not about abstinance, it is about denial. Again, if a couple agrees not to have sex (for whatever reason) that is not denying anyone; thet text does not apply.

There are no condemnations about birth control in Scripture. While Onan's story involves the spilling of seed, Scripture does not cite this as the reason he was killed. You may believe it was birth control related, but that is your interpretation. Even if that is the case, the silence on all the rest of Scripture in the matter of birth control make this a highly questionable doctrine.

The text in Corinthians is not about birth control; it is about how to have a healthy marriage so that we are not giving satan occassion to cause strife. I am sure you are aware that a baby does not result every time married individuals are intimate. This text deals specifically with the element of sex as a means of intimacy between a husband and wife, not as a means of reproducing primarily. It in no means addresses birth control.

There is no Scriptural basis for the position that all birth control is wrong. Personally, I do not use it. That is my preference. I do not support methods that destroy life (after an egg has been fertilized by sperm); not because birth control is wrong, but because murder is wrong. I can find multiple text in Scripture about it being wrong to kill; I can find multiple Scripture attesting to the truth of the Trinity; I can find none for an admonition against birth control.

 

[Ainesis]

You can eat meat and sin by doing so but it is not a sin to eat meat.

According to Scripture, the only way that you can sin by eating meat is if you believe that it is a sin to do so. By this correlation, the only ones it is sinful for to use birth control are those who believe it is a sin.

This is not my position. I happen to believe that the destruction of life is a sin; even if accomplished via birth control methods. Just want to point out that this does not seem to be a parallel for the argument against birth control.

 

[Ainesis]

As I said earlier, show scripture specifically adressing the Trinity and that argument will hold water,

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26
​

Please note that God refers to Himself here in the plural first in the word used for God "elohiym" and also in the reference to "us" and "our."

"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant" Genesis 18:1-3
"And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent." Genesis 18:9


​

Please note that the Abram saw the "Lord" appear (singular), yet the Lord appeared as 3 persons. Please also note that although Abraham addresses only 1 Lord, it is all three who respond in verse 9.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" Matthew 28:19
​

Men are brought to relationship with the Lord by baptizing in the name of all 3 - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." II Corinthians 13:14
​

Again, the blessings of God are illustrated as coming from 3 - Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." I John 5:7
​

Please note that there are 3 in Heaven; and these 3 are one.

While the word Trinity is not used, the basis for this doctrine (God being 3 in one) is demonstrated in Scripture - and even in the words of 2-3 witnesses. There are multple times where God is explicitly represented in 3 persons. There are also many verses which individually refer to God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as being God. I am assuming it is not necessary to post those here.

Now, back to the matter at hand. In the mouths of 2-3 witnesses let a thing be established. The concept of God being 3 in one is seen throughout Scripture. We can be assured that we are not taking one verse or text out of context in believing this doctrine because it is echoed throughout Scripture. We cannot say the same for a doctrine against birth control.

If I am mistaken and there are in fact Scripture which deal explicitly with birth control (as explicitly as God is referenced as 3 persons), please share them. Otherwise, it is only your interpretation and not direction from God at all. Now don't get me wrong, if such is wrong to you, then you should not do it. But there is no grounds to preach this as a truth from God, for it is not.

 

[e=mv^2]

Good post Ainesis.

 

[catlover]

Birth control is not sinful. It's a blessing to women.

 

[TwinCrier]

Birth control is not sinful. It's a blessing to women.

My bible says children are a blessing. Birth control just makes pregnancy seem like a disease.

 

[Ainesis]

My bible says children are a blessing. Birth control just makes pregnancy seem like a disease.

That may well be your point of view on birth control. But having a point of view and even using that perspective to guide your life is completely different from saying that such is a sin.

By the way, I know that children are a blessing! I thank God for the 3 wonderful children He has given me!

 

[BrotherSteve]

Oh okay. I believe that it is fine within marriage but only Natural Family Planning (the basal temperature method) is acceptable and only for grave reasons such as serious financial difficulty.

It seems strange that money should be a concern for a Christian - the bible teaches that God will provide for us. If it is God's will that a Christian family have children then God will provide for them financially.

 

[pegatha]

It seems strange that money should be a concern for a Christian - the bible teaches that God will provide for us. If it is God's will that a Christian family have children then God will provide for them financially.

I've often wondered what it means when it says that God will provide for us. Does it mean that true believers will never suffer want? I don't think it does.

Plenty of Christians have had to suffer extreme poverty or hunger. Susannah Wesley (mother of John and Charles Wesley) had to endure extreme financial hardship while she was raising her 19 children. So did the wife and 9 children of a Russian pastor I once met; he spent years in a Soviet prison for preaching to children (a crime in the USSR), often sleeping on a concrete floor in the middle of winter with no blanket. He says his wife had it harder than he did at the time, because she had to provide for all those children, both physically and spiritually, without his help. There have been Christians who starved to death in time of famine.

I think the promise that God will supply all our needs must mean something along the lines that when we are provided for, we should acknowledge that the provision ultimately comes from Him, or that if we're allowed to suffer want, we can trust that He has some purpose behind it. I don't think it's a blanket promise that we can take a certain standard of living (even a fairly low one) for granted, regardless of the number of children we have or the way we handle our finances.

 

[jamesMarion]

This Christian thinks any form of birth control is acceptable. More later.

 

[No Swansong]

My bible says children are a blessing. Birth control just makes pregnancy seem like a disease.

While the Bible says children are a blessing it doesn't say anywhere that all children are a blessing. Nor does it say all married couples are to reproduce. I would add that the Bible calls having many sheep a blessing, do you suggest we should all own sheep?

Respectfully submitted.

 

[e=mv^2]

That was baaa-aaaa-aaad.





ok... well that was too...