Your view on birth control?

[e=mv^2]

Careful what you ask for..... You just might get it. Ever drempt of being a dairy farmer TwinCrier?

 

[e=mv^2]

anyone else think it is odd that there have been 81 votes yet we have a hard time getting people to post here?

 

[Ainesis]

http://av1611.faithweb.com/catalog.html

Again, the article you post is based on the opinions of man, "I highly doubt any of them would say..."

While I appreciate you sharing your opinion and sharing this author's opinion, where does God say that such is wrong?

No where.

You should do as you feel led, it is wrong however to assert that birth control is a sin when God says no such thing.

 

[TwinCrier]

Careful what you ask for..... You just might get it. Ever drempt of being a dairy farmer TwinCrier?

I usually just count sheep when I sleep. I didn't know you could even milk sheep. Wow.

 

[TwinCrier]

Again, the article you post is based on the opinions of man, "I highly doubt any of them would say..."

While I appreciate you sharing your opinion and sharing this author's opinion, where does God say that such is wrong?

No where.

You should do as you feel led, it is wrong however to assert that birth control is a sin when God says no such thing.

How much more blatant can the bible be? Does it have to list every method of birth control? Just look at what it has done to our society; abortion on demand, out of control STDs, single moms, out of wedlock births, child abuse and sex on every channel. The bible says by their fruits you will know them, well, applying that to this issue, I've seen the fruits of birth control. Not only is birth control sinful, it causes more sin in the person's life. The idea of monogomous, fruitful marriage is becoming a thing of the past. As I said before, all the reason given for BC are IDENTICAL to the reasons given for seeking abortion and they can be summed up in one word; selfishness.

 

[No Swansong]

So, you are saying that it is good to reject and avoid God's blessings? That would be an odd sermon to hear. It's not the sheep that are the blessing, it refers to monetary blessings. I'm sure you have no problem accepting God's financial blessings, you just don't want to accept the blessings that require giving on your part.

No I am saying that not everything that is called is blessing in Scripture is always intended to be a blessing. Just because scripture calls children a blessing doesn't mean that ALL children are a blessing nor does it mean that the blessing of Children is meant for all people. And you still have not provided any scriptural evidence to the contrary.

You have no idea concerning what I do or do not give. You have no idea how I live or if it is sacrificial or not. You are making assumptions without anything to base those assumptions on. BTW the Bible doesn't say that the blessing is in the money, although I agree this is probably true. This actually proves my point. Not all believers are blessed monetarily the same. The financial blessings I receive are to be used responsibly, which they are. Just as the gift of sex is to be used responsibly, which it is.

 

[No Swansong]

Fine then, God, bless me with sheep if it be thy will. Now, will you do the same about children?

To answer your question here Crier My wife and I never prevented conception until the physicians told us she would die if we did not. We were always open to Children, we have two and wanted more. My wife and I were heartbroken because she could not have more children. But there is a big difference between being open to children and saying that those who are not are sinning. Again you have not pointed anywhere in scripture where all children are called blessings or where birth control is condemned or where sex between married couples is always intended to be for the purpose of procreation.

 

[No Swansong]

How much more blatant can the bible be? Does it have to list every method of birth control? Just look at what it has done to our society; abortion on demand, out of control STDs, single moms, out of wedlock births, child abuse and sex on every channel. The bible says by their fruits you will know them, well, applying that to this issue, I've seen the fruits of birth control. Not only is birth control sinful, it causes more sin in the person's life. The idea of monogomous, fruitful marriage is becoming a thing of the past. As I said before, all the reason given for BC are IDENTICAL to the reasons given for seeking abortion and they can be summed up in one word; selfishness.

Now this is all the strawman argument you were earlier alluding to. No one here has advocated sex out or marriage, abortion, child abuse, or pornography. You have not given scriptural evidence that birth control is sinful. To continue to assert so is dishonest. The logical end of your argument here is that my wife and I selfishly decided to preserve her life, so that she could selfishly raise the two children we already had. If that makes us selfish then so be it, I think it makes us responsible for the two blessings that we are now raising.

 

[Ainesis]

How much more blatant can the bible be? Does it have to list every method of birth control?

I am sure that a simple admonition from God about it being wrong to try and control the birth of children would suffice.

Just look at what it has done to our society; abortion

Unfortunately, looking at society does not tell us what God says; only looking to His word. So, where in Scripture does it say that it is a sin to practice birth control?

abortion on demand, out of control STDs, single moms, out of wedlock births, child abuse and sex on every channel.

And these are traced back to birth control in your mind?

The bible says by their fruits you will know them, well, applying that to this issue, I've seen the fruits of birth control.

First of all, Jesus makes the statement about fruits in regards to assessing people and whether they are truly of the Lord or not. Second, you have yet to prove that any of the things you cite are the result of birth control.

Not only is birth control sinful, it causes more sin in the person's life.

Based on what? Your emotional opinion on the matter? That statement certainly has no grounds in God's word.

 

[TwinCrier]

OK, I've provided scripture. This issue is obviously causing blindness, so I'll pray for eyes to be opened to truth. Listen to God speaking, not modern wisdom, which is foolishness.

Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it. Gen.1:28
Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Gen.9:1
Be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. Gen.9:7
Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. (Psalms 127:3-5)
And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil. (Exodus 23:25-26)
I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved. As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. (Hosea 9:10-11)
And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. (Deuteronomy 7:13-14)
And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. (Genesis 38:8-10)
For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
(Hebrews 7:10)
Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me. Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
(Job 10:8-11)
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Timothy 2:13-15)

You may also want to research church history and find that this acceptance of altering the body during intercouse with chemicals and devices is very new. Only as the world has infiltrated the church has this been allowed.

 

[TwinCrier]

To answer your question here Crier My wife and I never prevented conception until the physicians told us she would die if we did not. We were always open to Children, we have two and wanted more. My wife and I were heartbroken because she could not have more children. But there is a big difference between being open to children and saying that those who are not are sinning. Again you have not pointed anywhere in scripture where all children are called blessings or where birth control is condemned or where sex between married couples is always intended to be for the purpose of procreation.

Wow, amazing how this is suddenly coming out. How come when a pro-conctraception person runs out of arguments they suddenly develop a medical condition where they can only remain healthy if not pregnant? Hmmm. Could you provide more infor on this common condition. Will just conceiving cause instant death or does this happen at some other point in pregnancy? If you spoke out of turn and want to recant your claim that will be acceptable as well.

 

[No Swansong]

OK, I've provided scripture. This issue is obviously causing blindness, so I'll pray for eyes to be opened to truth. Listen to God speaking, not modern wisdom, which is foolishness.

Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it. Gen.1:28
Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Gen.9:1
Be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. Gen.9:7
Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. (Psalms 127:3-5)
And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil. (Exodus 23:25-26)
I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved. As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. (Hosea 9:10-11)
And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. (Deuteronomy 7:13-14)
And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. (Genesis 38:8-10)
For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
(Hebrews 7:10)
Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me. Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
(Job 10:8-11)
For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Timothy 2:13-15)

You may also want to research church history and find that this acceptance of altering the body during intercouse with chemicals and devices is very new. Only as the world has infiltrated the church has this been allowed.

TwinCrier don't confuse my disagreeing with your private interpretation of scripture as disagreeing with scripture. I state one more time scripture no where states that all married couples are mandated to breed. None of the verses you have provided proves otherwise.
Additionally I am awaiting your response to a previous post concerning the decision my wife and I faced. In case you missed it I will briefly ask it here. My wife was informed by 4 different pro-life physicians that another pregnancy would kill both her and the baby she would be carrying, this of course would have taken her away from her two (young at the time) children. Now, was it a sin to prevent this pregnancy from occuring? That is as straightforward as I can ask.

 

[No Swansong]

Wow, amazing how this is suddenly coming out. How come when a pro-conctraception person runs out of arguments they suddenly develop a medical condition where they can only remain healthy if not pregnant? Hmmm. Could you provide more infor on this common condition. Will just conceiving cause instant death or does this happen at some other point in pregnancy? If you spoke out of turn and want to recant your claim that will be acceptable as well.

To begin with I haven't run out of arguments my argument remains the same you cannot show me scripture where it indicates that contraception is sinful.

Please see post #125 of the thread http://www.christianforums.com/f459-christian-philosophy-ethics.html and note the date. I believe it predates this thread. I never posted that my wife had a common condition. Actually what happened to her rarely happens. And no, simply conceiving would not have killed her, carrying a child to the point that it would be viable would have. If you wish to argue this point fine but combined, these physicians have at least 56 years of post high school education and 2 of them over 15 years of practice each.
How come when anti-contraception person runs out of arguments they resort to accusations of dishonesty?

 

[e=mv^2]

How come when a pro-conctraception person runs out of arguments they suddenly develop a medical condition where they can only remain healthy if not pregnant?

My wife suffers from extreme tachycardia and requires 3 medications to keep her heartbeat under 120 bpm. When she became pregnant last time it was very scary. She had to come off of some of her medication and her heart did not do well. By the grace of God our daughter was born healthy and normally and my wife was able to start taking her regular medications again. Another pregnancy at this point would likely be fatal for her and the baby.

Women do die from pregnancy and childbirth. Luckily now medicine has gotten to the point where it is quite alot more rare now but there are women that have conditions that make pregnancy a life threatening situation.

 

[TwinCrier]

I've provided the scripture and am sorry you cannot or will not see it. I have shown you the scripture, which is my only responsibility on this matter. People are responsible for their own sins. It's a shame something as beautiful as birth has been relegated to medical condition and treated as a disease. The women of the bible were far wiser than many of us today and desired to have children, never to be barren or miscarry, which was seen as a curse. I’ll continue to pray for both of you to seek God’s guidance in this matter.

http://www.swrb.com/Puritan/bible-birth-control.htm

 

[e=mv^2]

TwinCrier - are you suggesting that I should risk getting my wife pregnant and watching her die? Is that what you are saying?

Are you telling me that I should abstain from sex for the rest of my life? I know that if I get my wife pregnant again she will die. Therefore having sex without some sort of birth control would be like playing russian roulette.

What are you telling me here?

The way I see it you are saying one of the following:

1 - e is a liar
2 - e should never again have sex ( I am only 30! )
3 - e should risk his wife's life every time he has sex

Is there another option?

 

[No Swansong]

I've provided the scripture and am sorry you cannot or will not see it. I have shown you the scripture, which is my only responsibility on this matter. People are responsible for their own sins. It's a shame something as beautiful as birth has been relegated to medical condition and treated as a disease. The women of the bible were far wiser than many of us today and desired to have children, never to be barren or miscarry, which was seen as a curse. I’ll continue to pray for both of you to seek God’s guidance in this matter.

http://www.swrb.com/Puritan/bible-birth-control.htm

Not that I mean to be catty but TwinCrier you made a very clear implication that my situation was contrived for the convenience of argument. At least have the courage to acknowledge that I addressed this issue on another thread prior to this one.

You have provided scripture that you have interpreted to mean something that it does not say. You still have not answered my query concerning my wife's situation. Why are you avoiding it?

 

[TwinCrier]

TwinCrier - are you suggesting that I should risk getting my wife pregnant and watching her die? Is that what you are saying?

Are you telling me that I should abstain from sex for the rest of my life? I know that if I get my wife pregnant again she will die. Therefore having sex without some sort of birth control would be like playing russian roulette.

What are you telling me here?

The way I see it you are saying one of the following:

1 - e is a liar
2 - e should never again have sex ( I am only 30! )
3 - e should risk his wife's life every time he has sex

Is there another option?

So what you are saying here is God has no power over who lives or dies, what babies are conceived or born? Are you saying your [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is more valuable than your wife's life?

 

[e=mv^2]

Are you telling me now that no woman has ever died as a result of pregnancy or childbirth? Of course God has power - if he chooses to use it is his business.

What I am telling you is:
a) There is a level of chaos in the universe. Sometimes God intervenes, sometimes he does not.
b) People die. There are starving children everywhere. Without intervention they will die. Should we intervene? Should we stand back and wait?
c) Medicine has the ability to intervene to prevent the death of my wife.

I personally beleive that we should intervene and prevent sufering and death.
So...

Celebate
Murderer
Birth control user

Which should I be? My own situation really is dire. I am being quite honest with you that I was almost a single father the last time around - if it were to happen again I think it would be over.

as an aside....
I will also let you in on another secret too. God can work around birth control quite easily. Both of my children were concived as happy accidents. If God chooses to bless you with children - he will do so independant of your choice to use BC. Also.... If my wife were to get pregnant again - abortion would never be an option.

 

[TwinCrier]

Not that I mean to be catty but TwinCrier you made a very clear implication that my situation was contrived for the convenience of argument. At least have the courage to acknowledge that I addressed this issue on another thread prior to this one.

You have provided scripture that you have interpreted to mean something that it does not say. You still have not answered my query concerning my wife's situation. Why are you avoiding it?

Are you saying that BC is sinful, but acceptable in YOUR case because God will kill your wife if she conceives? If you were defending the use of birth control in situations where birth is deadly, though I cannot see how such a thing can exist, but giving that your truthful, then you could say that it only applies in such a case and agree that the bible supports the historic position of the church that contraception is not God's will, than that would be one thing. I might actually believe this had you not spent so much time saying that children are not a blessing, unless I presume, they are planned and wanted by the couple.
The real puzzler is if you're so convinced that God wants you to chemically or surgically alter your body to avoid His blessings for you, why do you want to convince me that this sin is now okay? Do you stand to gain monetarily if I use some latex device? Does it ease your guilt to have my consent?