Your view on birth control?

[TwinCrier]

Ooh, hahaha, I get it, you're a laugh riot.

 

[Ainesis]

OK, I've provided scripture.

Not one about birth control or it being wrong to control the number of children you have. Not one Scripture has been provided on this.

This issue is obviously causing blindness, so I'll pray for eyes to be opened to truth. Listen to God speaking, not modern wisdom, which is foolishness.

I join you in that prayer that those who are blind to God's will in this area have their eyes opened.

Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it. Gen.1:28

Nothing about it being wrong to influence how or when one multiples. No mention or reference to birth control or birth control approaches at all.

Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Gen.9:1

Nothing about it being wrong to influence how or when one multiples. No mention or reference to birth control or birth control approaches at all.

Be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. Gen.9:7

Nothing about it being wrong to influence how or when one multiples. No mention or reference to birth control or birth control approaches at all.

Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate. (Psalms 127:3-5)

Nothing about it being wrong to influence how or when one multiples. No mention or reference to birth control or birth control approaches at all.

And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil. (Exodus 23:25-26)

Nothing about it being wrong to influence how or when one multiples. No mention or reference to birth control or birth control approaches at all.

I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved. As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception. (Hosea 9:10-11)

Being cursed with barreness has nothing to do with birth control.

And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. (Deuteronomy 7:13-14)

Nothing about it being wrong to influence how or when one multiples. No mention or reference to birth control or birth control approaches at all.

And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. (Genesis 38:8-10)

Please see previous threads. This is not about birth control.

For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.(Hebrews 7:10)

Nothing about it being wrong to influence how or when one multiples. No mention or reference to birth control or birth control approaches at all.

Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me. Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
(Job 10:8-11)

Nothing about it being wrong to influence how or when one multiples. No mention or reference to birth control or birth control approaches at all.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Timothy 2:13-15)

Nothing about it being wrong to influence how or when one multiples. No mention or reference to birth control or birth control approaches at all.

You may also want to research church history and find that this acceptance of altering the body during intercouse with chemicals and devices is very new. Only as the world has infiltrated the church has this been allowed.

Simply throwing up a bunch of Scriptures about how children are a blessing or how God is the Creator who blesses us with chidlren provide no foundation whatsoever for your position.

No one has said that children are a curse or that God does not create.

Simply because you believe that birth control is selfish does not mean that God feels the same.

There is no Scriptural instruction from God against birth control and while you are entitled to your opinions, they remain only that.

 

[Ainesis]

Ummm, how about obeying God?

Yes, obeying God instead of creating and espousing man-made doctrine sounds like excellent advice.

 

[kidsminister]

Yes, obeying God instead of creating and espousing man-made doctrine sounds like excellent advice.

Good answer!

 

[e=mv^2]

Ummm, how about obeying God?

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
(I Timothy 2:12, KJV)

We are all imperfect. We are all broken.

Now lets start lifting one another up instead of shoving each other down.

 

[kidsminister]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
(I Timothy 2:12, KJV)

We are all imperfect. We are all broken.

Now lets start lifting one another up instead of shoving each other down.

Oooh...the "can women teach" discussion - fun, fun !! Also completely off topic, so that's all I have to say about that.

I agree with everything else. The only thing I have to add is, "Who cares?" There are people going to hell who need Jesus....not Christians arguing about birth control!!

 

[TwinCrier]

Nothing about, nothiong about, nothing about. You may not realize this but they didn't have birth control pills or condom dispensers 2000 years ago. The teaching is clear. There are no examples of rightous people seeking to avoid children, only stories of those seeking the blessing of children. As I already said, even if there was a verse that specifically said "Thou shalt not take any pill chemical or use a device or surgery to avoid conception" the counter would be that it's a mistranslation or that it doesn't apply today. God doesn't change anf man isn't getting more rightous. Think about that. Are you really trying to seek God's will or just doing what is commonly accepted in 2005?

 

[TwinCrier]

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
(I Timothy 2:12, KJV)

We are all imperfect. We are all broken.

Now lets start lifting one another up instead of shoving each other down.

I thought you were leaving this thread.... no matter. I see no better way of lifting up my fellow Christian than to expose their error. This is just one of many sins I have made a personal change of heart on. How can I neglect to pass on the truth?

Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him. Lev 19:17

 

[No Swansong]

I thought you were leaving this thread.... no matter. I see no better way of lifting up my fellow Christian than to expose their error

Considering that you resort to ad hominem attacks and refuse to answer questions put to you, I seriously doubt your intentions are pure.

This is just one of many sins I have made a personal change of heart on. How can I neglect to pass on the truth?

And again it is not God that we disagree with, it is your interpretation of what God says. I have asked a few times before why won't you answer? Do you not see a difference between the two?

Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him. Lev 19:17

Let's see now, accusations of lieing, accusing us of being disgusted by children, accusing us of equating pregnancy with disease, none of which you have any evidence for and you believe that you are obeying this particular scripture? I think there actually needs to be sin to rebuke, before this principle applies. So far all we have is your distorted interpretation of scripture and your unfounded, baseless accusations.

 

[No Swansong]

Nothing about, nothiong about, nothing about. You may not realize this but they didn't have birth control pills or condom dispensers 2000 years ago.

Simply because something did not exist does not make it sinful. The same argument could be made for cars, airplanes, and computers.

The teaching is clear.

Or so you say

There are no examples of rightous people seeking to avoid children, only stories of those seeking the blessing of children.

''

And many, many more for which there is no mention at all.

As I already said, even if there was a verse that specifically said "Thou shalt not take any pill chemical or use a device or surgery to avoid conception" the counter would be that it's a mistranslation or that it doesn't apply today.

You continue to use strawman attacks. No one here has said anything about the Bible not meaning what it says or not being applicable. We simply have pointed out that contraception is not condemned as a sin in scripture. I would think that if this issue is as important and clear as you believe it is. It might be mentioned. I can find many examples of God rewarding responsibility and punishing those who were irresponsible.

God doesn't change anf man isn't getting more rightous. Think about that. Are you really trying to seek God's will or just doing what is commonly accepted in 2005?

I believe God's will is that we be responsible with all that he gives us, including our sperm and ova. I believe that I am responsible for the health and well being of my wife. I believe that I am responsible for my children. How is any of this contrary to God's will?

 

[Ainesis]

You may not realize this but they didn't have birth control pills or condom dispensers 2000 years ago.

Yet, women and men have been attempting to plan and influence and control the birth of children for thousands of years. Pills and condoms are not the only ways to do this you know.

And if this is your way of acknowledging that there is not one shred of doctrine in Scripture against this practice, then you are correct.

The teaching is clear.

Yes. Your teaching is very clear...it is also unfortunately very wrong.

There are no examples of rightous people seeking to avoid children

And there are no prohibitions against such. So your doctrine is based on air. It is righteous to use birth control? I would not say so. Is it unrighteous to use birth control? I owuld not say so. The topic has nothing to do with righteousness and Scripture is silent. In spite of your strong feelings here, Scripture is silent. Showing that children are a blessing or that some in Scripture seek children still does not equate to a command from God not to influence the birth of children.

As I already said, even if there was a verse that specifically said "Thou shalt not take any pill chemical or use a device or surgery to avoid conception" the counter would be that it's a mistranslation or that it doesn't apply today.

Hogwash. "Thou shalt not interfere with procreation." "Thou shalt not attempt to prevent the birth of children." All very straightforward.

If your statement were true, then God would not be able to have established a sure word that endures all time. None of Scripture would be relevant today according to your premise.

God certainly addresses homosexuality, abortion, tatoos, even cross-dressing. Yet not one peep about employing methods to control the birth of children. God is omnipotent. He knew what man would do from the beginning of time. He address a multitude of social ills. Not one peep about birth control.

Are you really trying to seek God's will or just doing what is commonly accepted in 2005?

I accept God's will. In this case, that is not synonymous with yours.

 

[e=mv^2]

Nothing about, nothiong about, nothing about. You may not realize this but they didn't have birth control pills or condom dispensers 2000 years ago.

Misconception. Birth control was used even in ancient Egypt. It was known about and in use well before the time of christ. It was not condoms and bc pills - in fact one of the methods early on was crocodile dung! The point is:

Birth control was a known thing and was in use before Christ.

I thought you were leaving this thread.

I thought you were going on about obidience.

This is just one of many sins I have made a personal change of heart on.

You ignore that the law is written on the heart. What is written on yours may not be what is written on mine. For you BC may be a sin. Why? Because you believe that it is a sin. That makes it a sin for you. If you thought that french fries were unclean then to you they would be. That would NOT make them unclean for me.

Here are the facts:

Birth control was in use before Christ
No mention of birth control was ever made in the bible.
It is a fundamentalist position to speak where the bible speaks and keep silent where the bible is silent.

The bible is silent on birth control. It speaks on disobedience. If this were an obedience issue then one would wonder why it is that a woman is attempting to teach a man about sin.

 

[TwinCrier]

Sin is not relative. When you worship a God who just happens to agree with you on everything, you may want to re-examine rather or not you didn't in fact create the God you're worshipping instead of the other way around. God is sovereign.

You have all obviously decided the world view on this is correct over the history of the church and the plain interpretation of the bible. Best of luck.

 

[Ainesis]

When you worship a God who just happens to agree with you on everything, you may want to re-examine rather or not you didn't in fact create the God you're worshipping instead of the other way around.

Amen!!!

May all seek to find out and obey the will of God as opposed to creating a God that represents our own particular vices, for that is idolatry. May we not add to nor take away from waht He has said.

 

[No Swansong]

Sin is not relative. When you worship a God who just happens to agree with you on everything, you may want to re-examine rather or not you didn't in fact create the God you're worshipping instead of the other way around. God is sovereign.

You have all obviously decided the world view on this is correct over the history of the church and the plain interpretation of the bible. Best of luck.

You are right that sin is not relative. But Paul did talk about situations in which something that may not be a sin, could become sin if it causes your brother to stumble. I believe that is what e was getting at. The same could be said about Paul's discourse on eating meat sacrificed to idols.

I think that your quote about having a God that agree's with you on everything is very ironic especially since it is coming from someone who is absolutely positively sure that God agrees with her.

Besides why would you assume that we have a God who agree's with absolutely everything. God has certainly taught me volumes since I began my walk with Him. Much of it painful I might add.

For some reason you seem to believe that you are the only one here who believes scripture. That I assure you is not true. I believe scripture but I don't believe TwinCrier's interpretation of scripture. I have asked now several times, do you not see the difference?

 

[TwinCrier]

...

I think that your quote about having a God that agree's with you on everything is very ironic especially since it is coming from someone who is absolutely positively sure that God agrees with her.

Actually I used to fight on your side, until I realized that those opposing birth control had more scripture evidence to support their view while I had none. I used the pill. It may have been responsible for my two miscarriages, and who knows, maybe more. I stopped ignoring scripture that didn't line up with my belief and came to the conclusion that these pills, surgeries and devices were doing more harm than good and that is not God's will. I wish I could believe birth control is harmless again, but I much perfer to live in truth than convience.

 

[No Swansong]

Actually I used to fight on your side,

I don't have a side.

until I realized that those opposing birth control had more scripture evidence to support their view while I had none.

To which I would respond then please share this evidence. Of course then you will refer to the portions that you have already shared. And of course I will point out that you have provided no scripture that indicates that every child is a blessing, or that every child is God's will, or that contraception is sinful.
Once again I will state that it is not God or Scripture that I disagree with it is your interpretation of scripture that I disagree with. And once again I will ask you do you not see the difference, and once again you will ignore the question. Really we are going in circles here.

I used the pill. It may have been responsible for my two miscarriages,

Admittedly possible but not very likely. Additionally almost all birth control pills are abortifacients even those which prevent ovulation act as an abortifacient if ovulation does occur, which is about 18% of the time. I have never defended abortifacients in any way.
You need to stop assuming that I support all forms of birth control. I do not.

and who knows, maybe more. I stopped ignoring scripture that didn't line up with my belief and came to the conclusion that these pills, surgeries and devices were doing more harm than good and that is not God's will.

Again this is your opinion and you have no scripture to back it up.

I wish I could believe birth control is harmless again, but I much perfer to live in truth than convience.

I never said birth control was harmless, nor do I base my decisions upon what is convenient. If I did we wouldn't have had any children.

For me it was a matter of preserving my wife's life. It is no more than that, and no less than that. I have a responsibility as her husband and as the father of her children to provide for her health, and I defy you to show me in scripture that I don't.

There are still a few questions that you have left unanswered, actually there are many as you tend to ignore most of them. I will list four here.

#1 Have you not yet consulted the other preexisting thread to verify that I indeed have mentioned this condition of my wife prior to this thread, and that since that is true, it is not possible that I contrived it for the sake of this argument?

#2 Is it the responsible thing to do to take an unreasonable gamble with my wife's life.

#3 If she had become pregnant and died, exactly how do I explain to two very young children that it was God's will for their mommy to be taken away, even though daddy could have prevented it?

#4 Is procreation the only intended purpose of sexual activity between married couples.

 

[TwinCrier]

Quote:

and who knows, maybe more. I stopped ignoring scripture that didn't line up with my belief and came to the conclusion that these pills, surgeries and devices were doing more harm than good and that is not God's will.

Again this is your opinion and you have no scripture to back it up.

Actually, this statement is best backed up by reading the side effects of any birth control method.

#1 Have you not yet consulted the other preexisting thread to verify that I indeed have mentioned this condition of my wife prior to this thread, and that since that is true, it is not possible that I contrived it for the sake of this argument?

#2 Is it the responsible thing to do to take an unreasonable gamble with my wife's life.

#3 If she had become pregnant and died, exactly how do I explain to two very young children that it was God's will for their mommy to be taken away, even though daddy could have prevented it?

#4 Is procreation the only intended purpose of sexual activity between married couples.

#1 You have not provided any information of this strange condition that exists in your wife that warrants my belief in your statement. Blind me with facts, not conjecture.
#2 Gambling is a sin, pregnancy is not. However, you don't seem to be arguing for YOUR case, but for all people to use contraception. Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
#3 Wow, you have the power to prevent death?! Impressive.
#4 Apparently. Of course in today's culture, personal presure comnes above a healthy marriage relationship and intercourse only serves the purpose of creating [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] with many seem to view as essential to life. That explains why the unsaved use birth control and commit adultry, but that doesn't esplain why Christians avoid God's blessings like the plague. There is no biblical basis for saying pleasure of the flesh is excuse to sin.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Actually, this statement is best backed up by reading the side effects of any birth control method.

So there are side effects to block methods? Putting on a condom is bad for your health? Lets see these side effects. I also don't see any side effects to NFP. I can make a Biblical case against NFP and abortificants but I cannot see one against block methods. It's not there. Unless you can present clear scripture I think you are way wrong in your attack on this one. I am quiverfull but it is a calling above and beyond any requirement in scripture.

#1 You have not provided any information of this strange condition that exists in your wife that warrants my belief in your statement. Blind me with facts, not conjecture.

Your constant accusation that his story is a lie is really over the top. You have no proof at all he is lying and the accusation is quite unloving and to be perfectly honest completely uncalled for.

#2 Gambling is a sin, pregnancy is not. However, you don't seem to be arguing for YOUR case, but for all people to use contraception. Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Gambling is a sin? Really, show me in scripture. Even if I agreed completely with your position you have resorted to ad hominem arguments and are losing credit pretty quickly due to that. You have attacked his credibility, his reasons, but you have failed completely to refute his arguments. You really should think about just stopping. You are really giving those of us who do not practice brith control a bad image by making claims that cannot be supported with scripture and making ad hominem attacks.

#3 Wow, you have the power to prevent death?! Impressive.

Doctors prevent death every single. I have prevented death by making the decision to slam on the brakes and yank the wheel of the car a certain way. I have helped an overdose not die when death was a very real and the most likely possibility. Again this is ad-hominem and the sarcasm doesn't help your arguments at all.

#4 Apparently. Of course in today's culture, personal presure comnes above a healthy marriage relationship and intercourse only serves the purpose of creating [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] with many seem to view as essential to life. That explains why the unsaved use birth control and commit adultry, but that doesn't esplain why Christians avoid God's blessings like the plague. There is no biblical basis for saying pleasure of the flesh is excuse to sin.

There is no Biblical backing for saying all forms of birth control are sinful. You are taking the ills of society and blaming it on something that is not responsible for them. More of the ills you describe are due to the breakdown of the family unit with the husband in leadership which was happening long before the pill came about and started long after block methods. You are making connections that are tenuous at best and at worst completely irrelevant. You are doing much more harm than good with the line of reasoning and your choice of debate tactics. There is a time and place for debate but debating someone who had to choose between his wife's life and birth control is really just pointless. Unless you can provide clear scripture that non-abortificant methods are sinful you have already lost the argument and are simply beating your head against the wall. I will help you out, there isn't any. You can cite the scriptures about children being a blessing all day long and I am in complete agreement with you on that thought process but when you try to make it a sin issue then you depart from scripture and that is where your argument falls totally apart.

 

[No Swansong]

Actually, this statement is best backed up by reading the side effects of any birth control method.

TwinCrier there are several types of birth control that have little or no side effects. Such as the use of condoms, or diaphragms.

#1 You have not provided any information of this strange condition that exists in your wife that warrants my belief in your statement. Blind me with facts, not conjecture.

I have explained to you as much as my wife is comfortable with me discussing on an open forum. She was injured during a C-section. If you do not believe that this is possible then ask your OB/GYN and I am sure that they will tell you, that while rare it does occur.
Besides all I asked you to acknowledge is that I mentioned this on another thread prior to this one and thus could not possibly have contrived it for the sake of this argument.

#2 Gambling is a sin, pregnancy is not. However, you don't seem to be arguing for YOUR case, but for all people to use contraception. Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Precisely God is no respector of persons that is why it seems to you that I am arguing for a side. I am not; I am arguing that Birth control is not contrary to scripture, and that in my case it preserved my wife's life.
My wife becoming pregnant would certainly have been a gamble, and a bad one at that considering 4 physicians all told us the same thing.

#3 Wow, you have the power to prevent death?! Impressive.

In the same manner that looking both ways before I cross a street, and using a seabelt, and not partaking in illicit drugs; yes. It is called being responsible and using the common sense that God gave me, which has been the thrust of my argument since the beginning. Is it your contention that I shouldn't do these things and teach them to my children? I repeat if my wife had gotten pregnant she would have died. Just as if I stepped into the street without looking into the path of an oncoming truck I would most probably die.

#4 Apparently. Of course in today's culture, personal presure comnes above a healthy marriage relationship and intercourse only serves the purpose of creating [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] with many seem to view as essential to life. That explains why the unsaved use birth control and commit adultry, but that doesn't esplain why Christians avoid God's blessings like the plague. There is no biblical basis for saying pleasure of the flesh is excuse to sin.

So procreation is the only purpose for sexual relations. At least now you admit it. I would argue that the reason my wife and I have intercourse is to share the intimacy that it creates, I would tell you that it is an expression of love between two people (Song of Solomon which nowhere mentions having children) But if procreation is the only purpose for intercourse then I guess you would agree that those who cannot conceive such as women beyond menopause, and those born sterile should not engage in sexual intercourse. I hope for yours and your husbands sake that you never require a hysterectomy, because then of course there would be no purpose for intercourse. And to be honest any sexual relations that occur outside a woman's fertile period which can now be easily identified would be useless.

I have no where stated that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is essential to life. I will however state that it is a part of most healthy marriages.
I find it hilarious that you compare those who use birth control, with adulterers. There is another strawman.